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I like STID. Is that wrong?

Racial prejudice against asians in the 1960s . . . was NOT so intense or so socially ingrained for anyone but the most fringe white supremacists to be bothered by a white man kissing an Asian woman.

There were not enough Asians in America period for the first white-Asian kiss to be a seminal moment like the first black-white kiss. The dynamics were different -- although your confident assurance that asian-Americans never faced violence and lynching is actually quite misplaced, they just never faced it on the scale that Black people did.

There's a hell of a distance between that and "nobody caring," especially when you're only a few years out of miscegenation laws. Yellowface was a Hollywood tradition because people cared. Star Trek was airing a handful of years into the era when Asian actors and actresses were starting to get screen work in any number at all. Your statement was simply wrong and ignorant, and you are trying to dance around that, and you are failing.

It's not "moving the goalposts." They are not the same thing.

It is moving the goalposts to claim anyone said they were the same thing. Much like it was moving goalposts earlier when you tried to pretend that calling Star Trek "relatively sophisticated" was pretending its episodes were works of timeless literary genius. (And don't even get me started on pizza analogies. :lol:)

Basically, no matter the topic, you seem to be having trouble reacting to what people actually say instead of what you think it would be more convenient for them to have said. I don't know if you know you're doing that? If you don't, it's something to watch out for.
 
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release it against three blockbuster franchises simultaneously

Like Into Darkness was?

Into Darkness was half-assed and not marketed? Did you try actually reading the comment in full?

I live in a smaller market (Greater Cincinnati) and I seem to remember Nemesis TV spots and newspaper/magazine ads. They didn't spend as much marketing, but that could've been because they realized they had a true turd early on.
 
...

Star Trek, to me, is an escape from reality not a substitute. I watch it because I don't want to be reminded of the shitty world that is just outside my door. I grew up watching Kirk slay god-like beings, fighting a guy in a giant lizard suit, fighting a giant single-cell organism. Punching the bad guy, saving the universe and getting the girl.

I find the Abrams characters incredibly like the characters that I grew up loving.
Seconded.

Agreed! I find Karl Urban's portrayal of McCoy to be scarily accurate.
 
Like Into Darkness was?

Into Darkness was half-assed and not marketed? Did you try actually reading the comment in full?

I live in a smaller market (Greater Cincinnati) and I seem to remember Nemesis TV spots and newspaper/magazine ads. They didn't spend as much marketing, but that could've been because they realized they had a true turd early on.

Yeah, I remember it being a lot more marketed than say, Insurrection. But still, its marketing is probably nowhere near the level of these latest movies. But I guess that's bound to happen since it had a much lower budget.

I'm also guessing Nemesis wasn't so much half-assed as it was just the wrong combination of talent still trying pretty hard. That does happen with movies.
 
Race does not have anything to do with "phenotypical descriptors."
That's almost the ONLY thing it has to do with. :vulcan:

Especially since most of the time you cannot specifically tell someone's ETHNICITY just by looking at them, which is why the racial groupings are as arbitrary as they are.

So if I wanted to describe Jean Luc Picard, I would call him "the tallish bald white guy in the red uniform." If I wanted to describe Geordi, I'd call him "the short black guy with a visor across his eyes and the yellow uniform." If I wanted to describe Chief O'Brien, I'd call him "The heavy-set red headed guy in the yellow shirt, looks Irish maybe." And somebody who'd never seen any of these people would be able to turn on Star Trek and immediately know who I was talking about.

On the other hand, if you set down to watch Star Trek Into Darkness and I told you "Wow that Puerto Rican girl is cute!" would you immediately realize I was talking about Uhura?

No, no, you're completely wrong.

Race is a social construct. The human races have no basis in biology. A black person is not made black by "phenotypical descriptors," nor is a white person made white, etc.
 
True, but the TOS racism toward Klingons was blatant. We hardly ever saw them in a positive light.

That's like saying Americans are prejudiced against North Koreans.
In TOS they were in at least a cold war with the Klingons.

Yet in 'Day of the Dove' Kirk attempted a deal with the Klingons instead of just deciding to kill them all and in 'A Private Little War' Kirk's crew were suggesting the Klingons had a right to trade.
The racist tirades in 'Day of the Dove' came out under the influence of the entity.
 
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Lots of people wouldn't, hence America's depressingly high divorce rate.

I guess I should have been clearer: I'm not talking about relatively minor changes here. Solely for the sake of making a point, I mean a complete reversal in every important way, particularly moral values and the like.
Yeah, that's exactly what I thought you meant.

Then I find your comment even harder to understand, I'm afraid.

My objections to ST09 are the exact opposite of nitpicking or over-analyzing. I'm not talking about the colour of the nacelles or the size of the ship. I am talking about a core aspect of TOS's ethos. Why would anyone have a major problem with minor issues?
Because "TOS's ethos" were not so well developed OR consistent -- or even so important -- for them to be considered "major."

By your own analogy: it's like your wife suddenly deciding that there's nothing wrong with violent video games after all (and therefore is finally interested in playing Grand Theft Auto V). To the same extent that most marriages probably aren't based on mutual hatred of videogame violence, most fans appreciation of Star Trek isn't based on its "ethos."

So it would seem. However its not about whether most fans consider TOS's ethos important to them. Some issues are simply regarded as being more significant than others in the scheme of things (and therefore not nitpicking etc). It is not unreasonable I would find them so. Which explains why I can't go with the flow as per your suggestion. For example the fact that ST and particularly TOS has apparently helped shape the lives of many viewers, suggests to me it is not just a TV show, surely?

Also, for someone who "claims" to be a "true fan" of Star Trek I'm amazed you don't remember this one! :p The Liar's Paradox is such a famous logic problem that my college textbooks actually cited this episode as the archetypical example:

"I'm a liar! Everything I say is a lie!"

I would be most grateful if you could point out where I claimed to be a "true fan" (whatever that means) as I an sure that studying the wording would help prevent me giving such an unfortunate impression again. If you just mean I have an encyclopedic knowledge of Trek, that seems even less like a claim I would make! :lol: I do recall the paradox you mention. I just couldn't place that scene immediately.
 
Race does not have anything to do with "phenotypical descriptors."
That's almost the ONLY thing it has to do with. :vulcan:

Especially since most of the time you cannot specifically tell someone's ETHNICITY just by looking at them, which is why the racial groupings are as arbitrary as they are.

So if I wanted to describe Jean Luc Picard, I would call him "the tallish bald white guy in the red uniform." If I wanted to describe Geordi, I'd call him "the short black guy with a visor across his eyes and the yellow uniform." If I wanted to describe Chief O'Brien, I'd call him "The heavy-set red headed guy in the yellow shirt, looks Irish maybe." And somebody who'd never seen any of these people would be able to turn on Star Trek and immediately know who I was talking about.

On the other hand, if you set down to watch Star Trek Into Darkness and I told you "Wow that Puerto Rican girl is cute!" would you immediately realize I was talking about Uhura?

No, no, you're completely wrong.

Race is a social construct. The human races have no basis in biology. A black person is not made black by "phenotypical descriptors," nor is a white person made white, etc.
Partially true, except that when you say that someone is "a black person" all you're really doing is narrowing down the range of possible skin tones that he probably possesses. As we've spent the last sixty years learning (and legislating) it's not generally meaningful beyond its utility as a description, despite the lingering belief among many people that you can make certain immediate assumptions about what kind of person he is without knowing anything else about him.

To be sure "Black" or "white" are racial groups; they may be social constructs, but they're still distinct and meaningful in and of themselves. "Zulu" and "Irish," on the other hand, are ethnic groupings that are meaningful for entirely different reasons and in entirely different ways. For example: my five year old son is one quarter Zulu, one quarter Ashanti, one quarter Irish, one eighth Choctaw, one sixteenth Dutch, and one sixteenth Greek. He could, to various degrees, claim any of those ethnicity as his "origins" but in the United States of America, he would be described as "black." In in the 1940s he'd probably be called "Mulatto" while in Mexico, he would probably be described as "Mestizo" or some other sub-category.

The categories THEMSELVES are social constructs, but they're really nothing more than descriptions of a person's visible phenotype.


We're all the same Race
No we're not. Any more than we're all the same height. Race is only socially relevant when a large and influential social movement decides that certain races in particular should be singled out for special treatment or special punishment, and it is entirely because of the existence and continued widespread political influence of such people that race is anything more than a phenotypical descriptor.
I didn't say I have an issue with tracking/monitoring and preventing advantages/disadvantages based upon Skin Color. What I said is that I am not in favor of using the same word "Race" to describe the entire Population (Human Race) and also to describe Skin Color (Black Race, White Race). It gives Racists, IMHO, more power to influence their young to continue in their Racist mindsets. It makes it easier to convince someone naive, that there is an actual difference between a White Man and a Black Man.
I don't know that that's actually true, considering most people in my generation (and my daughter's generation) grow up with people of various races all around them all the time and are accustomed to defining "race" as just a convenient subset of attributes used to tell each other apart. The simple fact is there aren't ENOUGH racial categories to describe what's really going on, precisely because the older categories were defined by racists and we haven't done the hard social work of creating new ones as demograpgics have shifted.

If racists are going to reach their children to also be racist, your personal discomfort with racial semantics probably isn't going to change that. On the other hand, an effort to use more fitting categories to describe different racial groups and sub-groups would make life easier for just about everyone else.

For Example, The Human Race is made of Black Ethnicity...
Which is exactly the problem: that would imply that a black man from Nigeria is basically the same race as a black man from the Dominican Republic. They have absolutely nothing in common OTHER than skin color: they don't speak the same language, they don't come from the same culture, and they DO NOT have the same ethnic background. It gets worse when you consider that there are recognizable racial subgroups even among Africans, with differences strong enough to have triggered at least two civil wars in recent history.

I think you're not really appreciating the extent to which "the black ethnicity" or a similar umbrella term would be the preference or racists, who would rather pretend that no meaningful differences exist between any two groups of black people and therefore they should all be treated exactly the same.

And again, Kirk/Uhura was a big deal because it was a big deal to see a White/Black kiss on TV. But, just because it wasn't as big a deal to see France Nuyen kissing a White Man, doesn't mean it wasn't an Interracial Kiss.
It kinda does, actually, since that's not what "interracial" meant in the context of 1960s white supremacist culture. Otherwise, you'd have civil rights workers walking through Connecticut, pointing out a group of Italians, Greeks, Norwegians, Anglos and Russians and saying "Wow, look at all this racial harmony!" You'd have black panthers holding meetings in storefronts saying "Italian power to Italian people, Russian Power to Russian People, Greek Power to Greek People..."

Racial identity in the 1960s was overly simplistic BECAUSE the dialog was primarily dominated by racists, most of whom drew the racial lines as "negro", "caucasian", "mongoloid", "don't even know."

Though, I think you're overstating how little a deal it was. WWII ended barely more than 20 years earlierthen these kisses we're talking about, it's been double that time since Black Civil Rights were granted
Failure of comparison: with the highly notable exception of Japanese Americans, institutionalized racial oppression of Asians wasn't that intense during World War II either. Significantly, France Nguyen was not Japanese.

I don't think you say people got over their "hatred/Bigotry of Asians in such a short time
The historical track record says otherwise. Again, most western states had, of their own accord, lifted the standing bans on marriage between whites and Asians by the mid 1950s, which suggests that their hatred or bigotry had subsided to the point that they were willing to tolerate Asians as members of their communities even then.

Consider that right around the time Asians were being accepted into white communities, Emmett Till was getting dumped in the Tallahatche River for whistling at a white woman.

A racist isn't going to care if an Asian is Japanese or Chinese, or any other Nationality
Unless, of course, that racist is himself Japanese or Chinese.;)
 
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It's not "moving the goalposts." They are not the same thing.
It is moving the goalposts to claim anyone said they were the same thing.
Sindatur explicitly did. That's the entire origin of this conversation.

Maybe you should pay closer attention the next time you decide to add your two cents?

Basically, no matter the topic, you seem to be having trouble reacting to what people actually say...
BIGJAKE.jpg


Almost ALL of your responses so far have been personal attacks. Good day, Sir!
 
They are not the same thing.

True, but the TOS racism toward Klingons was blatant. We hardly ever saw them in a positive light.
IMHO, TOS was actually remarkably fair to the Klingons. Their depictions had a lot of different dimensions to them; in "Day of the Dove" especially, it's strongly implied that the Klingons know even less about the Federation than the Federation knows about the Klingons, that they probably have legitimate reasons for being as aggressive as they are and their conflict with Starfleet is more out of insecurity and competition for resources than any inherently violent racial tendencies.

TNG went totally the opposite direction of that: Klingons are all angry and violent because that's just the way they are. All of them. Every one of them. They don't need a reason to be that way, it's a genetic trait; moreover, any Klingon who DOESN'T act like a knuckle-dragging barbarian isn't a "true Klingon" and is mocked by OTHER Klingons because in their eyes he's some kind of pussy. Violence and cruelty and conquest aren't merely paths they have chosen because of social evolution, political expedience or just their happening to be in the military, it is now the essence of what it means to be Klingon.

That, to me, is a profoundly racist point of view. I think TNG onwards handled that issue extraordinarily badly and Star Trek would be better off moving away from the "Klingons = warrior race" standard in the future.

Maybe something to hope for in the next Abramsverse sequel?

Some issues are simply regarded as being more significant than others in the scheme of things
"In the scheme of things"???:confused:

It's a television show. How is the poorly-developed "ethos" of TOS important "in the scheme" of TV entertainment?

For example the fact that ST and particularly TOS has apparently helped shape the lives of many viewers, suggests to me it is not just a TV show, surely?
And surely the fact that Pepsi Cola helped shape the lives (and bellies, and medical bills) of many consumers suggests it is not just a beverage.:vulcan:

You're confusing Star Trek with Star Trek fandom. Star Trek is a TV show owned by Paramount Pictures and was produced for the purpose of entertainment and commercial enterprise. Star Trek Fandom is a social phenomenon produced by people who enjoyed the TV show. They are not the same thing, and they do not have the same significance.

I would be most grateful if you could point out where I claimed to be a "true fan"
How about I point out where your sarcasm detector was eaten by a swarm of hungry tribbles?
 
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"In the scheme of things"???:confused:

Yes. If a person is being subjected to prejudice, that is more important than what colour their front door is, for example. Not that controversial or confusing a claim I should have thought.

It's a television show.

I know.

How is the poorly-developed "ethos" of TOS important "in the scheme" of TV entertainment?

I don't know what you mean by "poorly-developed". TOS to me gives an impression of a future which is generally more optimistic than existed in the 60's or even today in some ways. If that ethos was more prominently driven home, some might complain about it being too heavy handed or something. Come to think of it ...

For example the fact that ST and particularly TOS has apparently helped shape the lives of many viewers, suggests to me it is not just a TV show, surely?
And surely the fact that Pepsi Cola helped shape the lives (and bellies, and medical bills) of many consumers suggests it is not just a beverage.:vulcan:

Indeed. I see you have grasped the principle involved.

You're confusing Star Trek with Star Trek fandom. Star Trek is a TV show owned by Paramount Pictures and was produced for the purpose of entertainment and commercial enterprise. Star Trek Fandom is a social phenomenon produced by people who enjoyed the TV show. They are not the same thing, and they do not have the same significance.

No, I am not confused (except about why you would think so). I am not concerned at this point with who made TOS or why. Merely with what actually exists and what it says to me. It may be that the makers of nuTrek can do whatever they want, but if it doesn't include what I would describe as the ethos of TOS (or at least doesn't contradict it), there is a chance I will not enjoy it. As I have said, it seems to me Abrams and Co came to believe they departed too far from that ethos with the first installment, given what they did with the second. I give them their due for that decision.
 
According to RT, 90% of the people who saw it like it.

RAMA

Pfft. That's just nearly 300,000 people. The hundred people in Vegas who named it the worst Trek movie ever are a much better gauge.
 
The hundred people in Vegas who named it the worst Trek movie ever are a much better gauge.

:rommie: I'm still amused by how much that one incident seems to fixate you.

Do you really have yourself convinced that's the only criticism of STID that's ever happened? What is up with that? Why do you keep bringing it up when nobody else that I can see ever does so?
 
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Sindatur explicitly did.

No. He didn't. You misread him as doing so... and you're still doubling down on it.

And I don't think you know what a "personal attack" is. Attacking your arguments as being bad is not a "personal attack." Your arguments are bad. You can still make good ones. Nobody's stopping you.
 
The hundred people in Vegas who named it the worst Trek movie ever are a much better gauge.

I'm still amused by how much that one incident seems to fixate you.

Do you really have yourself convinced that's the only criticism of STID that's ever happened? What is up with that? Why do you keep bringing it up when nobody else that I can see ever does so?

I don't know? Seemed relevant to the conversation at hand.

Plus, it seems to irk you whenever I bring it up. :p
 
I don't know? Seemed relevant to the conversation at hand.

But you keep citing it like it's something you think other people view as authoritative, and I have never seen anyone else reference it or try to buttress an argument with it. It's confusing.
 
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