I just realized why I rate TMP as the best movie!

[RyanKCR]

Red Ranger said:They thankfully redesigned the interiors of the ship as well as the costumes to a more vibrant color palette, and those films didn't suffer because they sacrificed the dull earth tones of the first film.

You're kidding right? In TWOK each deck was the same gun metal color for the corridors. In TMP each deck had it's own color. Red when there were on the officers' quarters deck. White for the deck the transporter was on.

And exterior wise ILM (if I understand the story correctly) put baby powder and/or repanted the entire model gray over the delicate paint scheme she previously had.

 

[Maurice]

Looking at the TWOK DVD extra features about the effects, it looks like at least a few of the shots were done using the hi-con matte process like TMP, but somewhere during the production it appears the model was dulled down to allow for bluescreen use.

 

[Therin of Andor]

DS9Sega said:
somewhere during the production it appears the model was dulled down to allow for bluescreen use.

The article on ST II in the "Cinefantastique" special issue on that movie mentions how the SPFX guys couldn't work out how the TMP guys were able to use the TMP model successfully with bluescreen, but those secrets had actually already been revealed in "Cinefex" #1.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

That is interesting...

 

[trevanian]

Kegek Kringle said:
Incidentally, and this should come as no surprise, I consider Space: 1999 to have the best design aesthetic of any sci-fi TV show.

That's ... a gutsy thing to say. I'm impressed and horrified at the same time.

I'll grant that it looked very much of a piece (except maybe for the big zippers, which seemed a little anachronistic, given that the show has that 2001/velcro feel), but whether that could qualify as a best design aesthetic ... well, maybe so.

I've gotten very interested in Ken Adam's design work in the last few years, stuff he did apart from Bond and Strangelove (though those alone should keep him at the forefront of film design history for some time to come.) In thinking about 1999's design, I know it was influenced by 2001 considerably, but there is something Adam-esque about it as well. Maybe I better go rent some episodes and check this out (haven't seen the show since the 70s.)

I think I mentioned it here before, but in case I didn't, some of the Adam work on STAR TREK PLANET OF THE TITANS is shown in the book that came out in the last couple years, plus in the exhibit book for his career retrospective in London. One of those books notes that his Trek work anticipates Daniel Liebeskind's real life designs, and in perusing these volumes, you can see an area he designed for a traveling science fiction exhibit (never produced) that really looks like the TNG bridge to me, especially with the wraparound railing where Worf stands.

 

[trevanian]

Therin of Andor said:

DS9Sega said:
somewhere during the production it appears the model was dulled down to allow for bluescreen use.

The article on ST II in the "Cinefantastique" special issue on that movie mentions how the SPFX guys couldn't work out how the TMP guys were able to use the TMP model successfully with bluescreen, but those secrets had actually already been revealed in "Cinefex" #1.

Well, they knew it hadn't been shot bluescreen, because some of the guys on Trumbull's TMP team were at ILM on TWOK, including Scott Farrar, who worked on several ENTERPRISE shots in the first film.

There was never any secret of how Trumbull worked; the frontlight/backlight matting system is what he used on CLOSE ENCOUNTERS as well as TMP.

I think the only bluescreen Trumbull shot in TMP was the spacesuit reshoot, and I know they didn't shoot any bluescreen on 2001 because Kubrick wouldn't allow it due to quality concerns. There was some bluescreen done later on his sophomore directorial outing BRAINSTORM, but he didn't supervise those effects. He co-supervised BLADE RUNNER, and I'm very sure he didn't use bluescreen there either ... there was some elaborate roto work on Deckard hanging but I think it was shot against white or black.

The ILM guys on TWOK supposedly asked for help from other members of Trumbull's team, but he wouldn't allow that (deservedly so, since he had underbid TWOK and still didn't get the job.)

ILM had shot some frontlight/backlight before (Dennis Muren told me he shot several close-in shots of the fighters cruising the deathstar in SW using frontlight/backlight, in order to get the foreground towers and such to matte well), and I think they used it on DRAGONSLAYER concurrent with TWOK, but it was not the standard, and with the shots to be done, they couldn't spend that much time doing frontlight/backlight, especially since it wasn't their routine.

I think ILM started shooting the model in yellow light on TSFS to wash out the bluespill, and this continued on the other films ... on TUC they shot a beauty pass against black, which let them get reflections that wouldn't contaminate, and then shoot another pass against blue, so by spending more time, they were able to get a little bit of the TMP look (but not the full effect, to be sure), but that also resulted in the shot in TUC that everybody except me hates so much (the BOP POV of the wounded E), where the model is bathed in front keylight.

The first ILM E shots that appear in TWOK are during the Reliant/Ent encounter, and to me the ship looks very worn and grey in these pre-battle shots. It kind of reminds me of a glossy white model rocket I launched with an "E" engine ... it came back down looking grey (with the fins stripped off.)

BTW, the guy who did the recent book on the making of CLOSE ENCOUNTERS (came out in November) has considered the idea of doing a serious TMP making of book. I gather that he figures doing it w/o Pocket's cooperation would be difficult, but I sure would be interested if he tried.

 

[Therin of Andor]

trevanian said:
There was never any secret of how Trumbull worked; the frontlight/backlight matting system is what he used on CLOSE ENCOUNTERS as well as TMP.

I'm just saying, there was definitely a quote from a ST II guy saying (something like) "I really don't know how they stopped the reflections from the bluescreen bouncing off the white hull" in "Cinefantastique", and I was laughing because there was a piece in "Cinefex" #1 where someone was explaining the hoops they had to jump to stop reflections on the white hull for TMP.

 

[trevanian]

^The one where they really didn't do their homework was Ferren's bunch on TFF. They ran into the exact same problem Trumbull did when trying to physically streak the model for the warp shots -- their computer ran out of memory, even though they had ten years of R&D and progress for their supposedly state of the art system. They could have anticipated this if they'd bothered to read that issue 1 you mention in your post. They had Nilo Rodis advising them on how to shoot the Enterprise, you'd think he at least would have had a copy.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Well, it was out of print. But "Cinefex" used to offer sets of authorized photocopies because of ongoing demand for that particular back issue!

 

[trevanian]

Yeah, but those were really crummy xeroxes. I found that out AFTER I cut up several Cinefex issues and cannibalized a bunch of other books and mags to mock up an illustrated book proposal for Pocket in 91 & 92. I was freelancing for them, and they told me there really weren't any copies left of the sold out issues (I guess they were xeroxing from xeroxes.)

And when I went to work for them years later, I prowled the warehouse and confirmed it for myself ... nothing at all on the OP issues, though they had a few copies of the Japanese Cinefex book (not mag) that had to be recalled due to Lucasfilm's insistence (I've got one of those too ... it was all they could give in lieu of payment when the Toyspress, the Japanese publisher, found out the book was a no-go.)

All it would take would be a flood or fire and there would be NO Cinefex back issues, they have them all in one spot (or did 7 years ago anyway.)

Ferren was featured in an early issue of the mag that covered ALTERED STATES, so I imagine he was getting a sub or getting comped; not much excuse for not reviewing what had gone before at Trumbull's place (or at ILM for that matter.)

 

[Maurice]

*I* have Cinefex #1 right here in my hands as we speak

 

[Nebusj]

trevanian said:
...so by spending more time, they were able to get a little bit of the TMP look (but not the full effect, to be sure), but that also resulted in the shot in TUC that everybody except me hates so much (the BOP POV of the wounded E), where the model is bathed in front keylight.

The ``tickle us, do we not laugh, prick us, do we not bleed'' scene with the extremely white Enterprise sailing and turning? I like that shot, for what it's worth.

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

It was Gene Roddenberry's decision for the Starfleet Uniforms to have that sprayed on effect because they were supposed to be beamed onto the person while in the sonic shower. Hence, the scene where the Ilia Probe is initially naked in the sonic shower chamber but shortly thereafter, Kirk has clothes beamed onto her/it while she/it is still in the chamber. I think it was director Robert Wise who thought the sets and wardrobe of TOS were too bright and decided to go with the muted colors.

I enjoyed TMP novel, film, and "The Making of TMP" book. TMP is my favorite Star Trek film. I wish Paramount had made the sequels with the same sets, wardrobe, fx, and music as TMP.

Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

 

[Maurice]

Nebusj said:
The ``tickle us, do we not laugh, prick us, do we not bleed'' scene with the extremely white Enterprise sailing and turning? I like that shot, for what it's worth.

I don't believe that shot represents the Enterprise turning... it's the POV of Chang's ship and its maneuvers around her. The E appear to rotate because the (KEWL) BOP is circling.

 

[cardinal biggles]

I like the mechanics of the shot, but the Enterprise is so horribly lit, you expect to see a string hanging from the back of the saucer. It doesn't look like a beautiful, shiny starship (TMP), nor a weatherbeaten, battle-scarred starship (TWOK/TSFS), it looks like the plastic model I went and bought after seeing TUC in the theater.

 

[RyanKCR]

That shot in TUC is horrible. I think you are right the lighting was bad. It would have looked great had it been lit right and used the same kind of lens used in TMP. Actually outside of TMP that same lens should have been used. The scale would have been much better.

 

[trevanian]

There are a couple of mindsets about lenses and miniatures. Traditional thinking is that you use the widest possible lens, to get closer to the model and even perhaps benefit a bit from distortion seeming to enlarge the miniature. Taken to extremes, you have the little periscope lens that was stuck in between the nacelles for the drydock departure in tmp, where the taking lens is smaller than the nacelle that seems to be scraping it. Pretty effective when done right (when done wrong, not so hot ... they used a periscope rig to shoot the little tunnel trams in THE BLACK HOLE, and while it worked, it wasn't convincing, it was like you were in a habitrail for hamsters.)

The other line of thought is something that Kubrick did on 2001. You build your model really really big, so that you can shoot it with something approaching the kind of lens you'd use in real life to shoot a large object. So instead of a wide angle lens, you shoot with a longer lens, more toward the telephoto range. This lets you deal with, well, compress the open space between the camera and the model in an interesting way. The ship doesn't seem to move quite as far or fast toward camera, but you can tell there is movement (which again apes real ships being photographed.) 20 yard miniatures of ships filmed in the real ocean used this same lens approach in IN HARM'S WAY. Preminger claims credit for coming up with it, but it was more likely the fx guys on the show.

I think some of TOS was not shot with wide lenses ... there are a few flybys into camera that might have used a longer lens, though the depth of field issues with that model would seem to preclude it, unless they turned the sun on inside the fx facility.

This is just a guess, but the really big (7ft?) x-wing model that ILM built for JEDI and did not use would have been ideal for this long-lens treatment.

The ILM still photographers seem to have used telephoto lenses for a lot of stuff; the really nice superclean publicity pics for EMPIRE have that look (the Imperial ships behind the Falscon seem very compressed to me.)

Shoot a closeup with a wide angle lens and you won't see somebody's ears; shoot it with a telephoto and the ears are perhaps more pronounced than in reality. Try holding a closeup while dollying in and zooming back (or vice versa) and enjoy the fun ... the image seems to 'warp' (they use this a lot on B5, and Spielberg used it brilliantly once in JAWS. I always wanted to see it used in miniature photography for a jump to hyperspace shot, but had to settle for what nuBSG has done, which is occasionally (in the pilot?) do these zoom/dolly things on the interiors during jumps.

 

[EEE]

Sharr Khan said:
No its the least Trek like of the bunch. Its an attempt at pretension and takes itself way to seriously -

Perhaps. My gut reaction is agreement. But at the time, it was an oasis in a cultural desert to us dehydrated long time fans.

Sharr Khan said:
not to mention almost a carbon copy of an episode of the original series minus Roykirk.

Bingo! Thank you for seeing that. I never see that mentioned. The repetitiveness of the movie was THE biggest problem I had with the movie.

The movie was also hope for for the aforementioned fans. Of course the movie did became a hit because I actually paid a MINIMUM of five times to see it repeatedly, JUST to increase the chances of II (and did that payoff in spades in TWOK!).

To this day, I wish there had been a Star Trek Phase II series (I'd have much more TOS-ness in my DVD collection than I got out of the movies). Damn you Star Wars.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I don't really see the big deal about TMP sharing he incidental form of "The Changeling." As much as I adore that episode, it's pretty thin gruel by comparison--yes, both stories feature long lost earth probes modified into things of vast destructive power through intimate contact with alien machinery but in "The Changeling," it serves as no more than a springboard for a standard "menace of the week" story. By contrast, in TMP, it serves as the basis for a moderately deep (by Hollywood sci-fi standards) meditation of what it means to be alive and how personal obsession (Kirk's, Spock's, Vejur's) can blind one to the obvious and essential.

 

[RyanKCR]

You forgot to mentioned that Spock finally came to terms with his human half and was no longer afraid of it and since that time he bagan to embrace and use it.