I just found out a Friend of mine commited suicide...

[Kestra]

I'm actually 100% in agreement with teacake and while I don't think she was upset, I was a bit upset by that post. To have someone assume that you attempted suicide because your life was too easy is ... well, it's awful. I don't think she meant it in an offensive way but there are already so many barriers to mental health treatment and attitudes like this are rough on the victims and their families.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

There is no "normal" suicide victims. I cannot see why you would even categorize people this way. The weak, the sheltered, the ones that don't have a diagnosis to somehow excuse them? Please.

If someone "jumps out of a window because they lost a job they didn't even like " they were not doing it because of the job. They were doing it because they were fragile people for whom a normal depressing blow in life was an utterly despairing and crushing one. You don't see and you don't know how much people struggle. Mental health issues and life issues are often quite invisible.

The assumption that some people grew up "too sheltered" and this is why they are offing themselves is ridiculous. And yes insulting to families and friends dealing with people who have gone to the very edge of their coping abilities and lost the battle.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The assumption that some people grew up "too sheltered" and this is why they are offing themselves is ridiculous. And yes insulting to families and friends dealing with people who have gone to the very edge of their coping abilities and lost the battle.

I appreciate you saying that. I've been stewing over the spurious nonsense getting posted in this thread, feeling insulted, and trying to decide whether and how I should respond, and I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[iguana_tonante]

no, teacake, you misunderstood me completely there. I was only speaking of your "normal" suicidal person.

Stop it. Just... stop it.

 

[JarodRussell]

I do have my doubts regarding drowning depression in drugs for treatment. Chemical imbalance in your brain is a nice buzz word, but at the same time, you take drugs to stay in the environment that bogs you down. Instead of changing the circumstances that make you depressed. Sure, you have that chemical imbalance which means that you can't cope with certain situations like other people. But is that really neccessary? Do that many people really need to take drugs to be “normal“? Is this an evolutionary malfunction, or is society at fault here?

In short, I don't doubt that depression can be treated medically. What I doubt is the amount of people needing to take anti depressants. I also don't doubt that there are quite a few psychiatrists out there that do find the right balance between psychological and medical therapy.

But the conspiracy theorist in me sees that there is a lot of money to be made here. But maybe there is a treatment for that as well.


Similar areas. Your kid won't shut up and sit still in class. Give him some pills already. You can't handle exam stress? Here take this drug. You stutter and sweat when you talk to women? Try these! Wanna grow muscles? Take growth hormones.

There is that fine line between having to make psychological/physiological efforts and resorting to drug treatment that I think has been skewed.

 

[Kestra]

There is that fine line between having to make psychological/physiological efforts and resorting to drug treatment that I think has been skewed.

I understand how you feel and why you have the concerns that you do, but I believe that ultimately this sort of language is detrimental to the treatment of depression.

Beyond issues of stigma, access to health insurance, etc., many patients have a naturally strong aversion to any sort of prescription. I don't know if you've ever been depressed, and the experience is different for everyone, but it's common to feel like the depression is who you are. You don't want to take meds for it because you think that this is just your personality, you're a loser, and why would you take some medicine to mask that? It's not going to change the reality of your life and the fact that you have nothing left to look forward to.

The thing is, you get some of these same people on meds and it's like a fog has dissipated. In the words of one of my friends, "It's like for the first time in ages, I'm myself again. I thought the meds would change me but they didn't. The depression is what had changed me." It's not a cure-all, and very few skilled professionals would treat it as such.

Many (not all) patients benefit from a combination of therapy and meds. Personally, that's been the most useful for me. The meds brought me to a place where I was able to actually build up coping skills and other things. Prior to that, I was in such a dark place that CBT couldn't do much for me.

I know it sounds like I'm pushing meds, but I'm not. I just feel I have to speak up when I see anything like this because there is already so much resistance to taking medicine for any mental health issue. Drugs don't help everyone. The first one you try might not help you, and neither might the second. It can take time to see the effects, and it's not a cure-all. But there is nothing shameful in it. It's not "drowning depression in drugs," it's one aspect of treatment for depression. A prescription isn't a life sentence of dependence either.

I'd love to see cultural changes as well, but it's not an either/or scenario. It's not cultural changes OR cognitive behavioral therapy OR taking medicine.

Sorry, I'm really passionate about this!

 

[Tribble puncher]

(He could for example have done social service work or community work instead of going to prison)

Not likely, as a Child Support payer myself, I can tell you the system is very viscous if you fall behind. If it gets to the point where you are summoned to court, you can bet that unless you have a VERY GOOD excuse (I can't find work won't cut it!) or at least 80% of what you owe in back child support, you will go to jail for 6 month's (per child), in most states as far as I'm aware. Then, upon release, depending on the state, you have 30-90 days to start making payments or you will be jailed again. Imagine trying to find a job within 30 days of getting out of jail...anyway, if this was in fact what he was facing, there was no way for him to avoid jail time. I can imagine that's what he thought, that he would just be in and out of jail/homelessness until he died.....so he accelerated the process...

 

[sidious618]

Kestra is 100% correct. Medication isn't a cure for depression but it can be part of tackling depression. Just taking medicine usually isn't enough; therapy should come with it. However, personally, I can attest to the excellent results of medication in regards to depression/anxiety/OCD etc. I can also attest to the benefits of therapy. Being able to do both is optimal.

 

[Hound of UIster]

(He could for example have done social service work or community work instead of going to prison)

Not likely, as a Child Support payer myself, I can tell you the system is very viscous if you fall behind. If it gets to the point where you are summoned to court, you can bet that unless you have a VERY GOOD excuse (I can't find work won't cut it!) or at least 80% of what you owe in back child support, you will go to jail for 6 month's (per child), in most states as far as I'm aware. Then, upon release, depending on the state, you have 30-90 days to start making payments or you will be jailed again. Imagine trying to find a job within 30 days of getting out of jail...anyway, if this was in fact what he was facing, there was no way for him to avoid jail time. I can imagine that's what he thought, that he would just be in and out of jail/homelessness until he died.....so he accelerated the process...

Sounds like he was just another victim of the system.

It's just even more terrible knowing it was preventable.

 

[rhubarbodendron]

*sigh* apparently, several posters here practically insist in misunderstanding me, even though they should know me well enough to be aware that I can't mean what they consider to be what I mean. (ok, that's confusing but I hope you get what I mean: what we interpret into words doesn't necessarily have to be identical with the intentions of the person who said them.)
I can't help it. This is not my native language and I can't express my thoughts as unmistakably as a native speaker.
If you go back to my posts and read them thoroughly instead of just skimming them and picking a phrase here and there, you'll see that "normal" was deliberately used in quotation marks and that the whole thing was merely used in an effort to distinguish people who are permanently unhinged from those who are temporarily (and are otherwise normal). This is the third time I try to explain this and if I failed again I'll give up.
Come on, people. You've known me for ages. Do you actually and in all seriouseness believe I'm a moron?

Still, I stick to my point: a (emotionally/mentally) strong person is less likely to commit suicide and it is our task as parents to give our children the strength they need to weather the storms live inevitably has to offer.
I don't think anyone with a little common sense can deny this.

 

[lurok]

Kestra is 100% correct. Medication isn't a cure for depression but it can be part of tackling depression. Just taking medicine usually isn't enough; therapy should come with it. However, personally, I can attest to the excellent results of medication in regards to depression/anxiety/OCD etc. I can also attest to the benefits of therapy. Being able to do both is optimal.

*applauds*

...Still, I stick to my point: a (emotionally/mentally) strong person is less likely to commit suicide and it is our task as parents to give our children the strength they need to weather the storms live inevitably has to offer.
I don't think anyone with a little common sense can deny this.

I think I know what you're saying (even if don't necessarily agree fully), and I'm sure you acknowledge even the strongest defence can weaken and collapse under the stress of a fatal crack.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

I would wonder if Rhubarbodendron thinks that people who succumb to cancer are simply the weak dying because they don't have the strength to beat their disease.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

With all these suicides I wonder - could it be that people nowadays have difficulties to handle problems? I mean, just look at the divorce rates: the minute couples encounter difficulties, they file a divorce. At my time a divorce was not as easy to get and people were forced to stay together and work their problems out.
All these suicides seem to me to be of a similar nature: people don't have the ability anymore to tackle problems and they run away.
Maybe it's our fault and the fault of our parents: we have always made life easy for the younger generation, we wanted them to have a better life than we had and so they never got the proper fighting training that's so essential in life.

I read every word of this sanctimonious rubbish.

 

[rhubarbodendron]

absolutely, lurok! And thank you for the excellent example, Pasi Nurminen.

I think everyone will agree that if you lead a healthy life and don't smoke and avoid contact to dangerous chemicals, then you stand a higher chance not to get cancer. It doesn't necessarily mean you'll never get it but it is at least far less likely. You might reasonably call these people "healthy" and assuming that to be the standard condition for most people you might call them "normal".

That was what I meant in my previous posts. We can not 100% avoid that people commit suicide. But what we can do is give them the best help we can to make them so strong that it gets unlikely that they develop an emotional condition that would trigger a suicide.
Yet there is sadly no way to avoid a suicide with a 100% certainty. (I wish there were!)


Disclaimer: I explicitly exclude all people with emotional or medical conditions (including permanent or temporary depression) from the above said. Their situation is completely different and can by no means be compared to your average guy. This average guy was what I mean by "normal" and the above said applies only solely and exclusively to this average person.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Come on, people. You've known me for ages. Do you actually and in all seriouseness believe I'm a moron?

I don't believe you are a moron. I do believe you are talking out of your arse about this. It happens. I talk out of my arse most of the time.

But if more than a few people tell you that you are making uninformed and damaging comments about a topic, you should think about re-examining your beliefs, and maybe re-think your approach.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

*sigh* apparently, several posters here practically insist in misunderstanding me, even though they should know me well enough to be aware that I can't mean what they consider to be what I mean. (ok, that's confusing but I hope you get what I mean: what we interpret into words doesn't necessarily have to be identical with the intentions of the person who said them.)

I can't help it. This is not my native language and I can't express my thoughts as unmistakably as a native speaker.

If you go back to my posts and read them thoroughly instead of just skimming them and picking a phrase here and there, you'll see that "normal" was deliberately used in quotation marks and that the whole thing was merely used in an effort to distinguish people who are permanently unhinged from those who are temporarily (and are otherwise normal). This is the third time I try to explain this and if I failed again I'll give up.

Come on, people. You've known me for ages. Do you actually and in all seriouseness believe I'm a moron?

Your command of English is actually quite good. I know if I tried to make a point in German it would just come out as unintelligible gibberish. But what you said here was a completely understandable and fully realized point, which isn't consistent with someone who doesn't know what they're saying.

Also, you can't keep jumping back and forth between "My English is not so good" and "Everyone is deliberately misunderstanding me or skimming my posts and missing the point." It's one or the other, it can't be both.

Judging by your comments in this and the other current Misc. thread dealing with someone's death, I think you're genuinely trying to be helpful, but just don't grasp the right way to do it without being somewhat insensitive sometimes. Not because of a language barrier, but possibly because of a lack of experience in dealing with these types of situations or a lack of a filter telling you when you've crossed a line into saying something inappropriate.

Again, I don't think it's anything malicious on your part, and I certainly don't think you're a moron. You're very intelligent. I just think that when you have several people from varying countries and backgrounds telling you to reconsider your point or the way you say it, perhaps you should listen to them instead of blaming the disconnect on a language barrier or the reading skills/obtuseness of those making the complaints.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Kestra is 100% correct. Medication isn't a cure for depression but it can be part of tackling depression. Just taking medicine usually isn't enough; therapy should come with it. However, personally, I can attest to the excellent results of medication in regards to depression/anxiety/OCD etc. I can also attest to the benefits of therapy. Being able to do both is optimal.

Fully agreed. And really, the last thing we should ever see in a suicide thread is a bunch of talk about how psychiatric treatment doesn't work, people who need it are "weak," and we should look down on people who kill themselves because they just weren't raised well enough to suck it up and deal with life's punches.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the people commenting on depression and suicide in such a way don't know what clinical depression is really like. It's not, "oh, my life sucks and I'm sad about it." It could be that, but it's often not. Instead, it's "I'm sad and I can't figure out why." Eventually, this can turn into "I'm not even sad anymore, I'm just not anything, and I'm going to be this way forever." It becomes more than a persistent sadness, lack of motivation, and desire to isolate. It becomes a total void of emotional experience and expression, where acting like a "normal" person becomes a tedious, relentlessly demoralizing charade.

Although some are quick to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon that people are taking so many meds because Big Pharma wants to make a lot of money, the reality is that suicide has always been a major cause of death, and depression has been around forever. People just used to suffer in silence, and yes, they were told to "suck it up and stop feeling sorry for yourself," and people self-medicated with alcohol or engaged in other self-destructive behavior. It's not like there suddenly emerged an epidemic of depression, it's just that we now have tools for treating it, and it really galls me when people say we shouldn't use those tools.

I've seen people who have every reason in the world to be happy and satisfied with their lives struggle with deep, long-term depression. It doesn't make sense. That's really the point.

 

[JarodRussell]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the people commenting on depression and suicide in such a way don't know what clinical depression is really like. It's not, "oh, my life sucks and I'm sad about it." It could be that, but it's often not. Instead, it's "I'm sad and I can't figure out why." Eventually, this can turn into "I'm not even sad anymore, I'm just not anything, and I'm going to be this way forever." It becomes more than a persistent sadness, lack of motivation, and desire to isolate. It becomes a total void of emotional experience and expression, where acting like a "normal" person becomes a tedious, relentlessly demoralizing charade.

Maybe it's my personal experience that's standing in my way. I had exactly that, for 6 years. But then I literally stumbled over the reason for my depression and then I was able to make it go away. So, at least in my own case, I didn't need medication, I needed to solve the problem. But yes, in those years, I did avoid and ignore any recommendations of medical treatment. In my case I don't regret it, but I am fully aware that there are people who need it.

 

[Mr Awe]

I'm actually 100% in agreement with teacake and while I don't think she was upset, I was a bit upset by that post. To have someone assume that you attempted suicide because your life was too easy is ... well, it's awful. I don't think she meant it in an offensive way but there are already so many barriers to mental health treatment and attitudes like this are rough on the victims and their families.

I totally agree with what you say about barriers to mental health treatment and the attitudes. Although, I don't think everyone who commits suicide necessarly has a mental health issue. A neighbor of mine committed suicide and he had various non-mental health issues in his life. And, there have been reports of people who've been bullied into committing suicide.

I just think each case is different and you can't always pin it down to one cause, like mental health, although I agree that is a huge one.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

There is no "normal" suicide victims. I cannot see why you would even categorize people this way. The weak, the sheltered, the ones that don't have a diagnosis to somehow excuse them? Please.

If someone "jumps out of a window because they lost a job they didn't even like " they were not doing it because of the job. They were doing it because they were fragile people for whom a normal depressing blow in life was an utterly despairing and crushing one. You don't see and you don't know how much people struggle. Mental health issues and life issues are often quite invisible.

The assumption that some people grew up "too sheltered" and this is why they are offing themselves is ridiculous. And yes insulting to families and friends dealing with people who have gone to the very edge of their coping abilities and lost the battle.

I see where you're coming from, and I agree. I'd just add that there are many reasons why people commit suicide. It may often include mental illness, but not always. And, that was my only point. The neighbor that I mentioned was a case in point.

Mr Awe