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I just finished The Good that Men Do. Some thoughts.

Guy Gardener

Fleet Admiral
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I was lied to that this was a new standard in trek lit to marvel young and old as the heinous slander of "these Are the Voyages..." is finally put to rest.

Were do I start? I love how they slipped in a couple gay characters, and made marriage between man and a woman on Andoria an "abomination". Excellent slights, but did every one have to be so god damned girly requiring ten pages more to described every single new feeling they were all having?

Trip is a terrible spy.

His initials are C.A.T. and his favourite food is CATfish? God help us all.

Wiki says he died on October 10. The novel says he died on February 14. Don't care about the inconsistency so much as that, unlike Berman's bland wooing, we really did get a Valentines this time. That's a simply shameless.

Samuels is not the Prime Minister. He was only ever refferred to as "a" Minister, and considering there are no other heads of state present, it's not his job to be ambassador for earth, which is the job he was obsessing over while no one was running Earth during a time of crisis.

The Romulans had a working cloak mounted on a full sized Starship in the second season episode Minefield, despite constant claims that they did not, or that Kirk would be surprised by this technology in a hundred years and change.

The Phrase "My/Our Mother wouldn't recognize us/me." was used 4 times, that I gratingly noticed.

NuRomulans look nothing like Vulcans. That's a huge lump of plastic pasted in their brow. What is the point of having Romulans and Vulcans completely distinguishable with radically different make up if you are going to pretend that they are indisinguishable? This was a bad idea since they repremiered in TNG and is even harder to maintain the "cousins" angle here where the far fetched is forced to be made obvious.

IT'S STILL A *(&^^ING HOLOGRAM! Filtered history open to interpretation. Cop out.

Shifting the years around was completely disrespecting the stupid cannon of the terrible show final of Enterprise. It's not clever to disregard canon without a plausible reason and a little misdirection and wiggling. Bend it, don't break it.

He kissed her and left? ()*& that. She's a Vulcan, and he's going to a part of space where everyone looks like a Vulcan. If you love her then (*&$ing recruit her. This is so not Casablanca.

No one is going to be fooled by a translator, they will not work like they seem to on TV. More important, when they cut the machinery out of his corpse it's fabrication as much as it is a device translating Rihanssu into English will point straight back to Earth.

That )(&(ing Drone ship was never revealed to be of Romulan design. Archer was left completely in the Dark because his enemy was sneaky and quiet. T'Pol who corrected Hoshi's pronouciation of the word "Romulan" in Minefield, after gathering 126 ships in season 4 for their sensor net to track the drone ship, if they had known they were up against Romulans, would have plotted a course for Romulus straight out to kill the people holding the remote control to the killer drone. That was a huge unfounded leap in the ongoing plot of this book. Vulcan thought it could hold Andor with what, 9(?) ships? How the frack could Romulus stand up to 126?

Trips death made a hell of a lot more sense, even the script lifted from the TV show put into this context was a hell of a lot more sensible. Everything about his original death seemed fake, and that he was in on it made perfect sense. Except for why he did it. Like the Romulans care who his family is.

T'Pol not figuring it out that he boyfriend she's telepathically linked to? Now, that's unbelievable.

Jake and Nog getting drunk? I get, the idea, that this is how these two authors etched out the frame work for this story.

Shran not killing his lovers fiance, and stewing over it like a bitchy school girl was so grating. That kids subsequent heroic sacrifice was painful deus ex machina.

Was the continuous talk about the masks on Corriden diplomats, an apology for the costume department forgetting that Archer had been to Corriden in the Shadows of P'Jem and that world was a puppet state run like a monkey by the Vulcan High Command?

Where the hell were the kretessians? I saw one at the table in Terra Prime and Demons.

The destruction of Corriden was a nice bit of writing. Boom. The Romulan evaluation of it afterhand was also smart. Obviously a nod to the twin towers regimenting the American people into a single mind with their undecenting eye on a single threat.

The Romulans suck so bad that they eventually get the klingons as their shipwrights, ala real world, they need to build less starship models in TOS lowering the production costs. Did they really spend too much time exploring the singularity drive that they needed... bah!

The World Series is extinct, but the World cup lives on. Excellent. :)

if the rRmulans found him out, they woudl have attacked humanity. Not his family, not Enterprise. They would have blown up the planet if Trip bothered them so much. And if you're so worried about being labeled human then you don't send messages to "Captain Archer aboard the enterprise" while being chased by Romulan warships.

O! here's the real kicker! Vulcan ships in Enterprise can already travel at Warp 7. They're fantastic. The new ships in These are the Voyages were all about breaking warp 8, which were probably the Daedladus design. Mothballfleet, decomissioning?

What the hell was with bringing in that Vulcan Captain from Shadows of P'Jem as a Romulan separatist and then doing nothing significant with him? And as far as saving information for later Trip, when they're holding a gun to your head it's time to put your cards on the table... "hey? Ain't you a Vulcan?"

I can't believe these guys actually thanked Berman in the Acknowledgments in the end for writing 'These Are the Voyages" after this book too a righteous dump all over that soddy piece of television. They got huge brass ones I tell you.

...

I suppose they told A story well enough even if the frame work they were working with in might as well have been a from a mirror universe, and I really thinking about the cast of Enterprise were probably just about as whiny and sappy and painfully optimistic as they were in this novel, so really the narrative and direction were not terrible and even enjoyable sometimes. I've read worse books.
 
I have no idea if that was a good review or a bad one. But the following:

Guy Gardener said:

Trip is a terrible spy.

[snip]

No one is going to be fooled by a translator, they will not work like they seem to on TV. More important, when they cut the machinery out of his corpse it's fabrication as much as it is a device translating Rihanssu into English will point straight back to Earth.

I agree with completely. I made similar comments in my review of this book. (here)
 
Except this book is set in the same universe as the TV shows, where translators always do seem to fool people. Contrived or not, it's an accepted conceit of the universe.
 
Guy Gardener said:
Were do I start? I love how they slipped in a couple gay characters, and made marriage between man and a woman on Andoria an "abomination".

I'm not sure what you mean when you say they made marriage between a man and a woman on Andor an "abomination." Male Andorians and female Andorians do not exist. There are thaans, chans, zhens, and shens, but no males and females, so the concept of a male-female marriage simply doesn't exist with regards to Andorians.

Excellent slights, but did every one have to be so god damned girly requiring ten pages more to described every single new feeling they were all having?

Feelings are girly? Okay, Mister Spock.

Samuels is not the Prime Minister. He was only ever refferred to as "a" Minister,

It's probably fair to say that that's a bit of retconning, but it's a retcon that makes sense, from a story perspective. The United Earth Prime Minister would probably not want to leave the negotiations leading to the creation of the Coalition of Planets -- essential to United Earth's future security -- in the hands of his Foreign Minister, but would probably want to handle the issue himself, especially given UE's relatively low stature on the interstellar scene.

What doesn't make sense is that the only other Cabinet member present is Haroun al-Rashid, the Interior Minister. Something like the Coalition would usually involve the Foreign Minister, too -- unless Samuels is a bit like Winston Churchill, who served as both United Kingdom Prime Minister and Minister of Defense during World War II, and has chosen to assume both the Prime and Foreign Minister roles.

Granted, in the series, Samuels is only ever referred to as "Minister." The novel gets around that by switching periodically between calling him "Mister Prime Minister" and "Minister."

and considering there are no other heads of state present,

Nit-pick: A Prime Minister is not a head of state, but, rather, a head of government. Other novels -- most notably Starfleet: Year One and SCE: The Future Begins, have established that United Earth, circa the ENT era, was led by a United Earth President named Lydia Littlejohn. It would appear that United Earth is a bit like the State of Israel or the Italian Republic in this regard -- a ceremonial President of United Earth, and a Prime Minister of United Earth who wields real political power.

it's not his job to be ambassador for earth, which is the job he was obsessing over while no one was running Earth during a time of crisis.

1) Considering that "Terra Prime" took place over the course of a full day and that we did not see Prime Minister Samuels during most of it, I think it's unfair to claim that he wasn't running the UE government during that episode.

2) Again, United Earth is not a powerful state in interstellar affairs. Ergo, it would almost certainly be necessary to have the head of government personally present in order to command the respect of the other delegates, who may or may not view the presence of a mere ambassador or Foreign Minister as worthy of their attention. Plus, they're on Earth. Why wouldn't the Prime Minister run the show, especially if it's his pet project?

The Romulans had a working cloak mounted on a full sized Starship in the second season episode Minefield, despite constant claims that they did not, or that Kirk would be surprised by this technology in a hundred years and change.

That's the novel trying to find a way to reconcile a continuity error between ENT and TOS -- and doing so fairly well, since we never saw the Romulan ships in "Minefield" go completely invisible, just shimmery.

IT'S STILL A *(&^^ING HOLOGRAM! Filtered history open to interpretation. Cop out.

No, it's not. The scenes that we read are what actually happened. When we read the novel's 22nd Century scenes, we are not seeing a novelization of Nog's hologram, we are reading the actual events same as any other novel.
 
Christopher said:
Except this book is set in the same universe as the TV shows, where translators always do seem to fool people. Contrived or not, it's an accepted conceit of the universe.

My problem with it was that in the book itself the translator does fail to translate certain words. Whereas on the TV show it doesn't ever fail. So had it never ever failed to do so, then that'd be perfectly acceptable, as it is on TV. However it does fail in this very book making the fact that, that is a plot point all the more ridiculous.
 
LightningStorm said:
Whereas on the TV show it doesn't ever fail. So had it never ever failed to do so, then that'd be perfectly acceptable, as it is on TV.

Oh yes it fails. For example, Hoshi must deal with an unexpected glitch in the Enterprise's Universal Translators when they start transposing Andorian phrases for Rigellian (ENT: "Demons").
 
Sci said:
The Romulans had a working cloak mounted on a full sized Starship in the second season episode Minefield, despite constant claims that they did not, or that Kirk would be surprised by this technology in a hundred years and change.

That's the novel trying to find a way to reconcile a continuity error between ENT and TOS -- and doing so fairly well, since we never saw the Romulan ships in "Minefield" go completely invisible, just shimmery.

There have been many different cloaking breakthroughs that have been apparently ignored in later Trek. In ST VI, Spock figured out how to detect a cloaked ship, but in TNG and later they're still undetectable. I believe Dax figured out how to detect a cloaked Warbird in "Visionary," but later cloaked ships were still undetectable.

It's easy to reconcile every seeming discrepancy in the treatment of cloaking devices by making the assumption -- which is actually quite reasonable -- that whenever a cloaking device comes along, it then gets penetrated and it's necessary to develop a new cloaking technology to replace it. Indeed, in "Minefield" we saw that NX-01 was able to pierce the Romulan cloaks of that time by using the technology they got from Daniels in "Shockwave." Which, in turn, would've rendered that cloak obsolete and necessitated that the Romulans develop a new kind of cloak. And presumably that cloak was later penetrated, requiring them to develop yet another kind of cloak in "Balance of Terror." And so on, and so on.

LightningStorm said:
My problem with it was that in the book itself the translator does fail to translate certain words. Whereas on the TV show it doesn't ever fail. So had it never ever failed to do so, then that'd be perfectly acceptable, as it is on TV. However it does fail in this very book making the fact that, that is a plot point all the more ridiculous.

The translator has occasionally failed on TV when it's served the plot that it did so. In ENT, translator problems were featured in quite a few episodes -- including in situations analogous to that in this book. In "Civilization," Archer was able to pass close inspection as a native of the pre-warp planet even though he was using his communicator as a translator. There was a scene where his translator failed and he had to reset it before he could safely speak again.
 
Sci said:
What doesn't make sense is that the only other Cabinet member present is Haroun al-Rashid, the Interior Minister. Something like the Coalition would usually involve the Foreign Minister, too -- unless Samuels is a bit like Winston Churchill, who served as both United Kingdom Prime Minister and Minister of Defense during World War II, and has chosen to assume both the Prime and Foreign Minister roles.

Granted, in the series, Samuels is only ever referred to as "Minister." The novel gets around that by switching periodically between calling him "Mister Prime Minister" and "Minister."
The whole Samuels-is-Prime-Minister thing really bugged me, since there's no evidence for it in the show-- and in fact, evidence against it, in that Samuels can't give orders to Archer. Samuels as Foreign Minister would have made much more sense.

Nit-pick: A Prime Minister is not a head of state, but, rather, a head of government. Other novels -- most notably Starfleet: Year One and SCE: The Future Begins, have established that United Earth, circa the ENT era, was led by a United Earth President named Lydia Littlejohn. It would appear that United Earth is a bit like the State of Israel or the Italian Republic in this regard -- a ceremonial President of United Earth, and a Prime Minister of United Earth who wields real political power.
Not really, though-- in S:YO, Littlejohn is clearly a mover and shaker, not a ceremonial figurehead, and tFB was written before Season 4 of ENT.
 
The book actually explains the cloaks, they are prototypes, sometime after Minefield the ships testing them exploded, the Romulans weren't expecting to have a successful one to role out into the fleet for decades.

I did find the warp 7 thing a bigger deal than it should be given the Vulcans already have that ability.
 
While I liked the novel, I'd say my biggest beef has to do with the idea that apparently history can't even decisively record the timing of events as monumental as the founding of the Federation from the forming of the Coalition of Planets. There are just a few too many "re-writings" of aspects of TATV for this to be credible IMO.

And yes, it also doesn't make sense that Trip would have to convince everyone he knows that he is dead so that he can go off and play spy.
 
Elemental said:
While I liked the novel, I'd say my biggest beef has to do with the idea that apparently history can't even decisively record the timing of events as monumental as the founding of the Federation from the forming of the Coalition of Planets. There are just a few too many "re-writings" of aspects of TATV for this to be credible IMO.

That's misunderstanding the premise of TGTMD. It isn't saying that the Federation was founded any earlier. It's saying that certain historically minor events that happened around the founding of the Coalition in 2155 (Trip's apparent death, the crew's reactions to it, the conversations before Archer's speech) were falsified in the records as having happened around the founding of the Federation in 2161 (in which Archer apparently also made a keynote speech, making it easier to conflate the events). The timing of the monumental events is well-documented; it's just the stuff pertaining to this one starship and its crew whose chronological relation to those known events has been modified.
 
^No, I understand that. But how can Archer's speech and surrounding events like the timing of Trip's "death" be mistaken? You'd think that history would have a pretty clear memory of if this happened before or after the Romulan War.
 
Christopher said:
Elemental said:
While I liked the novel, I'd say my biggest beef has to do with the idea that apparently history can't even decisively record the timing of events as monumental as the founding of the Federation from the forming of the Coalition of Planets. There are just a few too many "re-writings" of aspects of TATV for this to be credible IMO.

That's misunderstanding the premise of TGTMD. It isn't saying that the Federation was founded any earlier. It's saying that certain historically minor events that happened around the founding of the Coalition in 2155 (Trip's apparent death, the crew's reactions to it, the conversations before Archer's speech) were falsified in the records as having happened around the founding of the Federation in 2161 (in which Archer apparently also made a keynote speech, making it easier to conflate the events). The timing of the monumental events is well-documented; it's just the stuff pertaining to this one starship and its crew whose chronological relation to those known events has been modified.

Christopher, canon and my encyclopedia assure me that the Federation was formed in 2161. Daniels even jaunted forward into that speech during the Xindi Arc(Azati Prime) that was clearly stated as being seven years later which is when the Federation would be founded, there and then on Federation day just like in they said in TNG Outcast. That's cool.

These Are the Voyages Suggested Troi made out that for a time that the Federation had another name, but fluidly it was still the same animal after some minor refurbishments of the protofederation. Just like the League of Nations which couldn't stop World War II was replaced with a more tenacious animal called the United Nations, here in TGTMD, the Coalition was made out to be a separate beastie which was shelved and mothballed in 2161 in favour of the Federation some 6 years after it's founding.

You're right, it's not saying the Federatiobn was founded earlier, but it is saying that coalition wasn't renamed later.

Also you went to a great deal of effort to explain the words "Arms Race". ;)

...


Okay, I concede on the translators. Though they are not infallible.

Sci, sorry for simplifying. But Shran took a couple lines out of the main drive of the story to denote how frowned upon his simple two-peoples coupling with his previous "girlfriend" Talas had been. That's the stringent antialegory mocking the gay marriage road blocks in America today I was referring to. Although it could be positively spun to say that "isn't diversity wonderful"?

Samuels couldn't give orders to Hoshi. You imagine an Ensign trying to tell Bush not to firebomb a village full of children? Of course, Bush is inside the chain of Command, at the top of it as a matter of fact, and Hoshi made it quite clear that Samuels was outside the chain of command when he was telling her to blow up half of Mars (including a civilian settlement.), hardly sounds like the leader of Earth if he can't control the lowest ranking Officers in effectively his own military? Or is Starfleet autonomous? It's not like Starfleet is a division of the United Earth Space Probe Agency or anything. (Sorry Sci, but this glitch in the book REALLY pissed me off.).

The Romulan ship in minefield was just shimmery? Well then.

That was too a hologram Sci. Every step of the way, even the bits of the story set on Romulus, which they chuffed up to artistic interpretation by the holographer to keep the narrative straight was chewed over by Jake and Nog... If the bits set on Romulus were "chuffed up to artistic interpretation by the holographer to keep the narrative straight" and also told within the same framework as the rest of the story which trip was witness too which you claim was reality, which is as you suggest real, then the parts of the novel jake and Nog were viewing set on Romulus were not "chuffed up to artistic interpretation by the holographer to keep the narrative straight"... You can't have it both ways.

There's a reason those old men had to be very drunk to swallow this story.
 
Elemental said:
^No, I understand that. But how can Archer's speech and surrounding events like the timing of Trip's "death" be mistaken? You'd think that history would have a pretty clear memory of if this happened before or after the Romulan War.

While reading the story, I assumed that Trip was going to flummox something and get found out. Ressume his life, and then 6 years later get lazy when he needed to fake his death again fro some mission and just reuse all the same %%*& from last time kept safe in the ships log.

But, no.
 
Guy Gardener said:
Sci, sorry for simplifying. But Shran took a couple lines out of the main drive of the story to denote how frowned upon his simple two-peoples coupling with his previous "girlfriend" Talas had been. That's the stringent antialegory mocking the gay marriage road blocks in America today I was referring to. Although it could be positively spun to say that "isn't diversity wonderful"?

To be fair, that's not new to this book. It was established in the DS9 books (set 200 years after this) that, since there are four genders, and all four are required to reproduce, the four-way marriage is the norm. Any romantic relationship between only two, of any gender, is considered a threat to that, as it might supercede the vital reproductive function of the four-way marriage.

However, they did also establish that, once the responsilities of the four-way bond have been met, it's okay for the four members to do whatever or whoever they want. Things can obviously change in 200 years.
 
I thought it was in Voyager when the Doctor was talking about sexuality during a slide show, but apparently it was Data while talking about the O'Biren's marriage in Data's day. I knew that was was old news... but I wasn't surprised from the the inclusion of such paper thin metaphors to find out at the end that one of the authors was gay. A writers world view is usually expressed in their writing, which is all I was saying, and considering I agree with that world view, that homosexuality is fiendishly underrepresented in Star Trek, I'm wondering how this simple notion is getting lost in the buffer?
 
Steve Mollmann said:
Sci said:
What doesn't make sense is that the only other Cabinet member present is Haroun al-Rashid, the Interior Minister. Something like the Coalition would usually involve the Foreign Minister, too -- unless Samuels is a bit like Winston Churchill, who served as both United Kingdom Prime Minister and Minister of Defense during World War II, and has chosen to assume both the Prime and Foreign Minister roles.

Granted, in the series, Samuels is only ever referred to as "Minister." The novel gets around that by switching periodically between calling him "Mister Prime Minister" and "Minister."
The whole Samuels-is-Prime-Minister thing really bugged me, since there's no evidence for it in the show-- and in fact, evidence against it, in that Samuels can't give orders to Archer.

Actually, when I did a bit more research (i.e., bitched about the same thing and then got told off by people who actually live under parliamentary governments!), I found out that that's accurate: A prime minister is typically not part of his/her state's military chain of command. The role of commander-in-chief of the armed forces will usually fall to the head of state; granted, the head of state usually does what the head of government wants -- there'd be a constitutional crisis if Queen Elizabeth ordered the British Army out of Iraq tomorrow against Prime Minister Brown's wishes, for instance -- but the fact remains that, legally, a prime minister cannot issue orders in the chain of command.

Samuels as Foreign Minister would have made much more sense.

To a point -- but I just kinda accepted it, since there was no serious continuity violation beyond the use of "Minister" as a form of address rather than "Prime Minister." But Harry Groener is such a great actor that I just really liked the idea of him as PM, so I just accepted it. :)

Nit-pick: A Prime Minister is not a head of state, but, rather, a head of government. Other novels -- most notably Starfleet: Year One and SCE: The Future Begins, have established that United Earth, circa the ENT era, was led by a United Earth President named Lydia Littlejohn. It would appear that United Earth is a bit like the State of Israel or the Italian Republic in this regard -- a ceremonial President of United Earth, and a Prime Minister of United Earth who wields real political power.

Not really, though-- in S:YO, Littlejohn is clearly a mover and shaker, not a ceremonial figurehead, and tFB was written before Season 4 of ENT.

Littlejohn seems to be a mover and a shaker, yes, but so what? One can accept the idea that there's a UE President and that she was named Lydia Littlejohn without accepting other aspects of Starfleet: Year One, and, either way, it still makes sense that United Earth would have both a presidency and a premiership, since that's how many republics are organized.

Guy Gardener said:
Samuels couldn't give orders to Hoshi. You imagine an Ensign trying to tell Bush not to firebomb a village full of children?

1) I have hard time imagining circumstances under which the President of the United States would be present at the site of a battle aboard a United State Navy vessel and issuing orders directly to a USN Ensign instead of the vessel's commanding officer... but I digress.

2) Actually, yes, I can picture a United States Navy Ensign refusing to carry out an illegal order such as a deliberate attack on innocent civilians. Similarly, I can picture a United States Navy Ensign obeying said order. When you're dealing with the issuance of orders that are clearly illegal, it becomes a question of the individual personalities involved rather than of the chain of command as to whether or not such orders will be obeyed.

Of course, Bush is inside the chain of Command, at the top of it as a matter of fact, and Hoshi made it quite clear that Samuels was outside the chain of command when he was telling her to blow up half of Mars (including a civilian settlement.),

1) As Prime Minister, Samuels wouldn't be in the chain of command; the "commander-in-chief" role would probably fall to the UE President.

2) You and I seem to be recalling the episode incorrectly -- I don't remember Samuels ordering the destruction of half of Mars and a civilian settlement. Rather, Samuels was ordering an attack on Paxton's ship-slash-mining station and the Veteron Array, even though that attack would probably kill Archer and Co., as agreed to by Archer prior to the mission, after Archer and his landing party failed to contact Enterprise to inform them that they had secured the Array, and he did this in order to guarantee that Terra Prime didn't launch an attack that would destroy United Earth Starfleet Headquarters and possibly half of San Francisco.

hardly sounds like the leader of Earth if he can't control the lowest ranking Officers in effectively his own military?

If nothing else, I wouldn't be surprised if that sort of thing means that Hoshi would have a hard time getting a promotion...

Keep in mind that the UE Starfleet is described in "The Expanse" as being a non-military organization. It's possible that they're more akin to NASA than the US Navy-like Federation Starfleet. And it's not as though being a PM, or a President, means that you have unlimited power to compel obedience from all government employees.

Or is Starfleet autonomous?

It's possible, as I noted above. And, as I understand it, the US President can't just issue an order to a NASA employee, since NASA isn't part of the Armed Forces and thus his role as "commander-in-chief" is inapplicable to them. So it's not unreasonable to think that the UE Starfleet has only just started to assume some of the responsibilities of a military, and that the legalities of things -- such as chains of command -- haven't necessarily caught up yet, too.

Yet another possible explanation is that Samuels may have the legal authority to issue an order to the UE Starfleet Command Council, but that only the Command Council may issue an order to Hoshi through Captain Archer's commanding officer -- in other words, that he can issue orders, but not directly.

So there are, in short, several possible explanations for Samuels not being able to issue an order to Ensign Sato even if he's Prime Minister.

It's not like Starfleet is a division of the United Earth Space Probe Agency or anything.

Actually, if the seal we saw in the conference room in "Demons" was accurate, the United Earth Starfleet is a division of the United Earth Space Probe Agency! Heck, maybe only the Minister for UESPA can issue orders!

That was too a hologram Sci. Every step of the way, even the bits of the story set on Romulus, which they chuffed up to artistic interpretation by the holographer to keep the narrative straight was chewed over by Jake and Nog... If the bits set on Romulus were "chuffed up to artistic interpretation by the holographer to keep the narrative straight" and also told within the same framework as the rest of the story which trip was witness too which you claim was reality, which is as you suggest real, then the parts of the novel jake and Nog were viewing set on Romulus were not "chuffed up to artistic interpretation by the holographer to keep the narrative straight"... You can't have it both ways.

Andy Mangels himself has posted here and has clarified the issue:

When we read a chapter set in the 22nd Century, we are reading the actual events. Period.
 
Sci said:
Steve Mollmann said:
Sci said:
What doesn't make sense is that the only other Cabinet member present is Haroun al-Rashid, the Interior Minister. Something like the Coalition would usually involve the Foreign Minister, too -- unless Samuels is a bit like Winston Churchill, who served as both United Kingdom Prime Minister and Minister of Defense during World War II, and has chosen to assume both the Prime and Foreign Minister roles.

Granted, in the series, Samuels is only ever referred to as "Minister." The novel gets around that by switching periodically between calling him "Mister Prime Minister" and "Minister."
The whole Samuels-is-Prime-Minister thing really bugged me, since there's no evidence for it in the show-- and in fact, evidence against it, in that Samuels can't give orders to Archer.

Actually, when I did a bit more research (i.e., bitched about the same thing and then got told off by people who actually live under parliamentary governments!), I found out that that's accurate: A prime minister is typically not part of his/her state's military chain of command. The role of commander-in-chief of the armed forces will usually fall to the head of state; granted, the head of state usually does what the head of government wants -- there'd be a constitutional crisis if Queen Elizabeth ordered the British Army out of Iraq tomorrow against Prime Minister Brown's wishes, for instance -- but the fact remains that, legally, a prime minister cannot issue orders in the chain of command.

I live under a Parliamentary system. Nothing the Government makes it’s mind up about is official until it’s co-signed by the Governor General who is the Queens representative in New Zealand. Of course, he only has the choice to sign the papers infront of him or resign. Much like the Queen in England only has the choice to sign the papers infront of her or initiate (I’m serious.) a civil war where she and her supporters are immediately deposed. Are you suggesting that there is a King or a Queen somewhere in the command structure of this future Earth Government who needs to ratify this “Prime Ministers” instructions and lawmaking?

Frankly I just assumed that “Prime Minister” was a convenient and pretty name they gave to the Job of “The guy in charge of Earth” within the realms of this novel, and the idea of “Ministers” in Enterprise(The TV Show) just made me smile too much to dissect the issue. Each country or political block I assumed had been given a Minister, and then one of them is then chosen to be top dog “somehow”.

Andy and Martin screwed the pooch as far as the Government is concerned since first the willfully shoved back the founding of the UE a decade to 2140 for no reason other than probably to unclutter the Enterprise Timeline thinking no one would notice, and second they foolishly cited Australia as the last holdout to the fomentation of the United Earth Government because they misremembered Picard saying that it happened when really he created a hypothetical question for Beverly in attached of “What if it happened?”.

Dramatic license. Square peg. Round hole

Sci said:
Samuels as Foreign Minister would have made much more sense.

To a point -- but I just kinda accepted it, since there was no serious continuity violation beyond the use of "Minister" as a form of address rather than "Prime Minister." But Harry Groener is such a great actor that I just really liked the idea of him as PM, so I just accepted it. :)

I liked him on Mad About You while running for the Mayor of New York. :)

Sci said:

Nit-pick: A Prime Minister is not a head of state, but, rather, a head of government. Other novels -- most notably Starfleet: Year One and SCE: The Future Begins, have established that United Earth, circa the ENT era, was led by a United Earth President named Lydia Littlejohn. It would appear that United Earth is a bit like the State of Israel or the Italian Republic in this regard -- a ceremonial President of United Earth, and a Prime Minister of United Earth who wields real political power.

Not really, though-- in S:YO, Littlejohn is clearly a mover and shaker, not a ceremonial figurehead, and tFB was written before Season 4 of ENT.

Littlejohn seems to be a mover and a shaker, yes, but so what? One can accept the idea that there's a UE President and that she was named Lydia Littlejohn without accepting other aspects of Starfleet: Year One, and, either way, it still makes sense that United Earth would have both a presidency and a premiership, since that's how many republics are organized.

Unfortunately, TV and movie continuity trumps Book continuity, and the Enterprise era Earth was run by Ministers and so logically probably a Prime Minister too. If there was really a United Earth President in Charge of things too with underlings probably called senators, then what exactly was a Minister or Prime Minister in charge of, unless of course, Samuels was really a Priest of whatever denomination and it was a religious affection and not a political affectation? Although I think in terra prime in Archers ready Room, Samuels said he talked it over with the other Ministers.

There is barely any evidence in TV and Movies that the UE existed, god forbid what they called their highest tier of politicians, but if it was either Presidents and Senators, or Prime Ministers and Minister, I can be sure of one thing, and that is that it wasn’t both, which puts the thumb on the scales for this issue that there probably was no UE President.

Of course, from the looks of things I really assumed that the Earth Government was situated on Vulcan for all the power they wielded in the say-so of this and that in Starfleet and Jonathan’s wiggle room to get away with murder. You would assume that most of Forest’s decisions in season one would have been at the direction of the civil authority within the UE considering how high profile Enterprise was to Earths long term agenda, rather than it was running rogue to the needs of Earth?

Sci said:

Guy Gardener said:
Samuels couldn't give orders to Hoshi. You imagine an Ensign trying to tell Bush not to firebomb a village full of children?

1) I have hard time imagining circumstances under which the President of the United States would be present at the site of a battle aboard a United State Navy vessel and issuing orders directly to a USN Ensign instead of the vessel's commanding officer... but I digress.

I have a hard time imagining circumstances under which the Prime Minister of the UE was aboard Enterprise in a combat situation issuing orders directly to an ensign?

Recently a policeman in the duty of the being the Prime Minister of New Zealand’s driver was fired because he broke the speed limit while taking the Prime Minister to a Rugby Match. Several witnesses “across the country” figured out hat he was travelling at 120 KPH for just over an hour through even residential areas. Meanwhile YEARS ago, the Queen of England refused to wear a seat belt because it would put an unflattering line on her garments. When threatened with legal action it was replied that the Crown would not prosecute the Crown.

Power is smoke.

Sci said:

2) Actually, yes, I can picture a United States Navy Ensign refusing to carry out an illegal order such as a deliberate attack on innocent civilians. Similarly, I can picture a United States Navy Ensign obeying said order. When you're dealing with the issuance of orders that are clearly illegal, it becomes a question of the individual personalities involved rather than of the chain of command as to whether or not such orders will be obeyed.

Of course, but Hoshi was following Archers orders to blow up the verteron array. Samuels just yelled at her when the time limit Archer gave her elapsed and she asked for another two minutes, because “That’s how long it takes for the weapon to power up”. She was fine with the responsibility right up until the moment she had to destroy the cannon and then she buckled.

Sci said:
Of course, Bush is inside the chain of Command, at the top of it as a matter of fact, and Hoshi made it quite clear that Samuels was outside the chain of command when he was telling her to blow up half of Mars (including a civilian settlement.),

1) As Prime Minister, Samuels wouldn't be in the chain of command; the "commander-in-chief" role would probably fall to the UE President.

I got ahead of myself earlier. What exactly do you think that Samuels is the Prime Minister of that the United Earth President isn’t and vice versus? The book lead me to believe that Samuels was top dog. Inside the Universe of the Book I assume that he is, inside the TV show Terra Prime however… I’m wondering again, when was it ever said in canon that there was a UE Earth President?

As much as we accept in the more distant future that Starfleet had become the police force and the military, like some sort of universal tool, how do the MACOs fit into this, that the commander in chief, be it President or Prime Minister, would seem to control mutually exclusive military disciplines, and maybe even a few that we don’t know about… Tom Paris in Voyager claimed that he wanted to join the Coast Guard, but his father forced him to join Starfleet instead.

Sci said:

2) You and I seem to be recalling the episode incorrectly -- I don't remember Samuels ordering the destruction of half of Mars and a civilian settlement. Rather, Samuels was ordering an attack on Paxton's ship-slash-mining station and the Veteron Array, even though that attack would probably kill Archer and Co., as agreed to by Archer prior to the mission, after Archer and his landing party failed to contact Enterprise to inform them that they had secured the Array, and he did this in order to guarantee that Terra Prime didn't launch an attack that would destroy United Earth Starfleet Headquarters and possibly half of San Francisco.

The verteron cannon coupled into the Martian power network as soon as it landed, remember that clamping cgi? It was hooked into the infrastructure ergo furtherly supercharged and there might as well have been canals for the blast wave to flow along into the nearby city to melt its citizens because it was a domino game of powder kegs on the red planet. A surgical strike was impossible because the nearby settlements were within the blast wave of even the most taciturn orbital strike, which is why they had to do it like they did to go in with commandoes and Phlox. I watched this episode dozens of times while writing a synopsis and review a couple years back. Thousands of civilians lives were on the line if Hoshi waited to long that the Verteron cannon fired, or thousand of civilian lives were on the line that she gave the order to blow the damn thing up. Killing Archer was just gravy.

Sci said:

hardly sounds like the leader of Earth if he can't control the lowest ranking Officers in effectively his own military?

If nothing else, I wouldn't be surprised if that sort of thing means that Hoshi would have a hard time getting a promotion...

Though if she’d just shake it a little, sugar up a few libidos, we’ve seen how easily this lady could become Empress. Though after the fact, she has having dinner in the mess with Samuels talking like pals while Johnny Bravo was offing himself for being caught out spying and sabotaging the shuttle Pod. They’re fine. Maybe he likes being talked down to by a strong woman?

Sci said:

Keep in mind that the UE Starfleet is described in "The Expanse" as being a non-military organization. It's possible that they're more akin to NASA than the US Navy-like Federation Starfleet. And it's not as though being a PM, or a President, means that you have unlimited power to compel obedience from all government employees.

Which is not how it was described Starfleet in Star Trek VI. Infact they talked about cutting the military budget entirely to change Starfleet’s focus back to exploration. Earth was reportedly protected completely, if only in principle, by the Vulcan Fleet probably right up until the dissolution of the High command in Season 4. The MACOs said their service had only been operation for two years at one point and they had only encountered simulated combat while training on the moon. Did Earth have a military? Did they have a need for a military? Until the Xindi attack I would probably answer no to both questions. I recall Jonathan in Home saying “I didn’t sign on for that mission” when he considers using Starfleet to guard Earths boarders form the next bogeyman.

Sci said:

Or is Starfleet autonomous?

It's possible, as I noted above. And, as I understand it, the US President can't just issue an order to a NASA employee, since NASA isn't part of the Armed Forces and thus his role as "commander-in-chief" is inapplicable to them. So it's not unreasonable to think that the UE Starfleet has only just started to assume some of the responsibilities of a military, and that the legalities of things -- such as chains of command -- haven't necessarily caught up yet, too.

Hoshi brought up the chain of command. I was using this as an example to prove that Samuels isn’t the Prime Minister. If Admiral Gardner, and Forest before him didn’t answer to anyone at the top of the UE, then doesn’t that make them, much like NASA as you say, a corporation (or a glee club since there is no money)? Then the Admiral at the top of the Admiral pyramid is effectively the military governor of Earth if they are setting military and security and foreign affairs policy even if he or she is just parroting the Vulcans.

Book Samuels = Prime Minister
TV Samuels = NOT Prime Minster

A Minister would be outside the chain of command. A Prime Minister wouldn’t. That is if we can sort out if the Prime Minister is the Highest Civilian Authority in the United Earth Government and the commander in chief of the Earths Military? Whether Starfleet wants to adimit they’re a military at this point or not, because if they’ve not duly empowered by the UE, then they’ve got as much right to speak for earth as the Boy Scouts if they had a Space program.

Sci said:

Yet another possible explanation is that Samuels may have the legal authority to issue an order to the UE Starfleet Command Council, but that only the Command Council may issue an order to Hoshi through Captain Archer's commanding officer -- in other words, that he can issue orders, but not directly.

That’s plausible. Remember how Hoshi wouldn’t let him call out to get some one to order her to fire, and she wouldn’t let him because they were running black? (I swear I haven’t watched this episode in three years.) So really, that’s exactly what happened. Although I insist on the TV show he wasn’t the Prime Minister.

Sci said:

So there are, in short, several possible explanations for Samuels not being able to issue an order to Ensign Sato even if he's Prime Minister.

Of course there are. Hypothetical vs. hypothetical. Fun isn’t it? ;) Bring it on!

Really, he could have just gone down to engineering and got Kelby who was a Commander and forced her to obey Archers orders. She was disobeying Archers orders by giving him another 2 minutes past Paxton’s deadline. Someone on the Bridge should have assumed command and saved Earth from getting fragged like Archer wanted. I’m guessing, but someone on that bridge must have outranked Hoshi. Everyone else there can’t have also been an Ensign with less seniority?

Sci said:

It's not like Starfleet is a division of the United Earth Space Probe Agency or anything.

Actually, if the seal we saw in the conference room in "Demons" was accurate, the United Earth Starfleet is a division of the United Earth Space Probe Agency! Heck, maybe only the Minister for UESPA can issue orders!

They mentioned the “Probe Agency” agency a couple times in early season one too. What do you mean if the seal was accurate? I just took it to mean that every seal I saw before that was just too small to read because I’m all squinty… Are you saying that that seal was freshly designed for that episode and had never been seen before?

Sci said:

That was too a hologram Sci. Every step of the way, even the bits of the story set on Romulus, which they chuffed up to artistic interpretation by the holographer to keep the narrative straight was chewed over by Jake and Nog... If the bits set on Romulus were "chuffed up to artistic interpretation by the holographer to keep the narrative straight" and also told within the same framework as the rest of the story which trip was witness too which you claim was reality, which is as you suggest real, then the parts of the novel jake and Nog were viewing set on Romulus were not "chuffed up to artistic interpretation by the holographer to keep the narrative straight"... You can't have it both ways.

Andy Mangels himself has posted here and has clarified the issue:

When we read a chapter set in the 22nd Century, we are reading the actual events. Period.

Andy’s input into the interpretation of the material is just as valid as anyone else’s the minute he sends it off to his editor followed by the printer if he has to source outside information he couldn’t be bothered to put into the book or was cut out of the book to explain events which should be self-evident, then that’s cheating. However, I’m rolling back my opinion on it all being fake, since really the chapter headings took such great care to focus where and when in time and space each segment of the story was taking place… Should I apologize that I started writing the first post in this thread at 4 am, 5 seconds after I finished the book? I was sleepy and crazy.

Now I’m just crazy.
 
Elemental said:
^No, I understand that. But how can Archer's speech and surrounding events like the timing of Trip's "death" be mistaken? You'd think that history would have a pretty clear memory of if this happened before or after the Romulan War.

As for the speech, we didn't actually see his speech in either the episode or the novel. We only saw his backstage conversations preceding it. It's easy enough to assume that he gave the keynote speech at both events, as I said, and that the backstage discussions that actually happened in 2155 were rewritten by historians to have occurred in 2161. Since those were private rather than public events, it's not that implausible that their timing could've been concealed.

As for Trip's apparent death, that wasn't an especially public event either, certainly not in comparison to the big historical events that everyone would've been focused on. To us TV viewers, the founding of the Coalition or Federation is a sidebar to a story about the regular characters of the show. To people in-universe, the travails of the crew of a single starship would be a sidebar to the founding of the Coalition or Federation. True, this particular starship is of great historic significance and its crewmembers were celebrities at the time. However, given the context, with something as big as the creation of an interstellar alliance and the beginnings of war with the Romulans coming along around this time, I can understand some things slipping through the cracks.

Besides, public knowledge of history is full of beliefs that are totally false. Like the belief that people in Columbus's time thought the world was flat (an obvious absurdity even then; the claim was just propaganda created generations later as a way of ridiculing the entrenched establishments of European society). Or the belief that John Smith had a romance with Pocahontas (she was something like 12 when they met, if they met at all, and it was John Rolfe whom she later married). Ben Franklin's famous kite-flying experiment never happened either; as described in his writings, it just couldn't have worked, and even if it had, the shock would've been sufficient to stop his heart.

And if we can assume that the Eugenics Wars led to the destruction of lots of records, sufficient to conceal the fact that the Botany Bay had been launched, can't we assume that similar information loss happened in the Romulan War?
 
Except the Vulcans would have backed up all(most?) of Earths History, since they're sure we're going to have another world war any minute now if we believe that Vulcan who was played by Data's mommy.
 
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