I hope for more traditional space battles

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Some of us can think for ourselves without looking over our shoulders and seeing which the general public prefer.

And some of you can't make up your minds what you think of these movies:

Loved it, the core 3 were perfectly recast.

I was really not expecting the film to do this well, brilliant. Trek is back and bigger than ever!

Right now it's a fifty/fifty chance that in May you'll declare Abrams the King of All Media again.

 

[anh165]

The pace/speed of the action I don't think makes of breaks a battle scene, it is sense of tension and drama, very important ingredients for an action scene to be effective.

TWoK = slow, but very effective
ST2009 = frantic, but also very effective

The arrogantly put 'traditional' battle scenes simply fail to express the severity of the escalated levels of conflict, and that is very poor presentation for any show/ movie of any genre.

 

[Borgminister]

I was for it before I was against it!

Edit--re the flip flop.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The arrogantly put 'traditional' battle scenes simply fail to express the severity of the escalated levels of conflict in war, and that is very poor presentation in any show/ movie of any genre.

And, honestly, comparing "battle scenes" in a TV show like DS9 with anything from any Trek movie is laughable. Some of the fanboise just went "squeeee!" the first time they saw a bunch of CG starships all crowded into the same shot on their little TV screens and apparently have never recovered any perspective.

 

[Ryan8bit]

DS9 had some pretty respectable space battles for being just a TV show. Some of them may not have been as visually impressive as the movies (probably because of budget), but there were quite a few that were still pretty standout.

All I really ask of space battles is that I'm able to follow the action of what's going on. The worst offender for that was the opening to Star Wars episode III.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm so sorry about how low your standards have gotten.

Your posts contain more substance than drooling all over JJ Abrams and declaring every piece of Star Trek before his movie shit, so you win by default.

I'm 95% sure you two are the same person.

 

[Squiggy]

You keep pretending it is 1995, I will enjoy forgetting that era and look forward to Star Trek being exciting again.

It's an era that continues in Trek literature, hopefully for a long time to come.

It will until it stops being profitable.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Some of us can think for ourselves without looking over our shoulders and seeing which the general public prefer.

Exactly. Just because something is immensely popular doesn't mean that you have to hate it. I remember being 20 and feeling giddy that I was going against the flow and liking all kinds of very unpopular stuff, and then I learned to think for myself.

Honestly, you're a smart kid, I'm sure you realize that making a film today so that it looks like a twenty-year old television series is not only improbable, but also not the best or the most creative approach one could take.

 

[anh165]

DS9 had some pretty respectable space battles for being just a TV show. Some of them may not have been as visually impressive as the movies (probably because of budget), but there were quite a few that were still pretty standout.

I don't think anyone was having a dig at the visual effects, because lets face it ToS Balance of Terror cannot compare to what you see in DS9, but the former is a far superior battle scene to any in DS9 as it demonstrated better story telling.

And this is why these calls for 'traditional' battle scenes which sort of is tolerable in mid 1990's TV will simply not work in a high budget high profile movie like Star Trek.

 

[DalekJim]

I'm 95% sure you two are the same person.

This is the meanest flame I've ever received .

Exactly. Just because something is immensely popular doesn't mean that you have to hate it. I remember being 20 and feeling giddy that I was going against the flow and liking all kinds of very unpopular stuff, and then I learned to think for myself.

Honestly, you're a smart kid, I'm sure you realize that making a film today so that it looks like a twenty-year old television series is not only improbable, but also not the best or the most creative approach one could take.

People can like whatever. Saying something is good because lots of people watch it and bad because not many people watch it is sheep-like and thoughtless behaviour though. It's literally just following what other people think.

The general public don't care about Star Trek, or sci-fi in general, much and that's been the case since the original series was abruptly cancelled before it even finished its 5 year mission. Is TOS crap because it got cancelled?

In fact, don't even answer that.

TNG is the only Star Trek series which was a huge mainstream success during airing. Would that cause My Name Is Legion to claim it is the only good Star Trek series? Of course not. Then the spin would completely change gears.

 

[Ryan8bit]

ToS Balance of Terror cannot compare to what you see in DS9, but the former is a far superior battle scene to any in DS9 as it demonstrated better story telling.

I think DS9 had plenty of good storytelling moments intertwined with some of the battles, but that really wasn't my point, nor the one of the original post.

 

[SeerSGB]

I riff on the FC battle 3/4 of the times I watch it. "Jean Luc use the force" was my immediate thought the first time I watched it in theaters. The whole thing struck me as very A New Hope in what was going on

If you take that out of it, all I mean was it was easy to follow and visually appealing at the same time (granted the film is "old" now) but the effects still add up.

ST09 by contrast its like "FIRE EVERYTHING ARGGHHHHHHH BOOM CRASH POW ARGHHHHHHH"

that's the feeling I got watching it, maybe it was "visceral" or whatever you want to say, you can do that, you can mix in those scenes like that, hell add in some gore effects if you like when parts of the ship come apart, but at the same time let me see what's happening

"LET ME SEE WHATS HAPPENING"

Don't muddle it up in one big, loud, colourful explosion

no more of this:

[Hotlinked image removed. - M']

What even is that?

What is it? Wreackage, saucer section over a planet, back lit by a star, with the Enterprise approaching. See, easy.

FC battle was freaking boring. And it has nothing to do with traditional versus new, it was just a boring ass battle. The only good thing in it was the 1701-E and her entrance...which they ruin by going back to the old standby way of handling the ship in battle.

 

[DalekJim]

Agreed. It was so boring, man. I could like see everything that was going on which nearly put me to sleep right then and there. And where were all the lights that were supposed to flash in my eyes?

 

[anh165]

I think DS9 had plenty of good storytelling moments intertwined with some of the battles, but that really wasn't my point, nor the one of the original post.

The point of the original post was the dull insipid fish tank of a 'battle scene' in first contact (which is not disimilar to any other battle scene in DS9 or Voyager) would not work in modern high budget movie. No director or producer worth his salt would put footage so maligned from being able to set the tension and danger of the antagonist.

Let's try to re-construct the first few minutes of the Kelvin scene into something TNG/DS9/VOY evangelicalists are acustomed to.

USS Kelvin flies past camera slowly with insipid classical music in the back ground. Hum de dum...

Cut to bland token female navigation officer:

Nav: "Captain, our sensor readings indicate a subspace disturbance just ahead of us"

Robau: "Any idea what it could be officer?"

Nav: "Not certain captain, I can increase the resolution of the sensor array but that would take additional time to process any extra data ... captain, I detect a vessel emerging from the subspace disturbance"

Robau: "On screen"

Viewer on, a Romulan Warbird emerges and fires 2 disruptor bolts.

Robau: "Raise shields!"

Green bolts of energy strike the Kelvin and absorbed by her shields.

Camera shake...

Robau: "Damage report"

Token Ethnic Tactical officer: "Forward shields down to 22.5%, I am attempting to re-route aft shield power to compensate"

Ship rocks and cue spark on various bridge command consoles.

Token Ethnic Tactical officer: "Damage to our forward power coupling"

Robau: "Fire phasers"

A type-4 canon friendly phaser beam pisses out from the Kelvin's saucer section, dramatically aided by stock TNG/VOY/DS9 phaser sound effects.

Token ethnic tactical officer: "Negligble damage sir, shall I calibrate em band frequency to penetrate their shields?"

Ship rocks again.

"Shields down, forward power couplings offline, primary warp coolant conduits offline, captain"

Robau: "Tell them we surrender and are willing to negiotate"

 

[SeerSGB]

Agreed. It was so boring, man. I could like see everything that was going on which nearly put me to sleep right then and there. And where were all the lights that were supposed to flash in my eyes?

Nothing to do with seeing what was going on. You can see what's going on in ST 09. It has to do with it being another boring Borg battle with zero tension.

 

[BillJ]

The general public don't care about Star Trek, or sci-fi in general, much and that's been the case since the original series was abruptly cancelled before it even finished its 5 year mission. Is TOS crap because it got cancelled?

Science-fiction and fantasy films usually do pretty well at the box office.

Honestly, TOS ran longer than it probably should have based on the time-period in which it was produced. Whether it's the 60's, 80's, 90's or the 21st century, you have to produce material people want to watch. Trek didn't evolve with the rest of the TV/movie business, which is why it fell on its collective ass in the early 21st century.

 

[The Doctor]

I guess it all depends on whether or not you want an action sequence to be immersive and immediate or objective and detached. Do you want to be caught up in the terror facing a small survey ship faced with impossible odds or do you want to be impressed by the tactical maneuvers of the attacking ship? I much prefer something that draws me in to the situation and makes me feel like I'm there, in the moment.

 

[DalekJim]

Science-fiction and fantasy films usually do pretty well at the box office.

Deep Space Nine is not a movie, it is a television show and sci-fi shows generally don't last long. Networks are scared to commission them over other types of programming. The idea that DS9 failed, even though it ran for 7 seasons is absurd. Though it also comes from the man who thinks that modern Trek was a flop because it only ran for 25 seasons. It seems the only criteria for something not being a failure is if JJ Abrams is involved, at which point it becomes genius.

I guess it all depends on whether or not you want an action sequence to be immersive and immediate or objective and detached. Do you want to be caught up in the terror facing a small survey ship faced with impossible odds or do you want to be impressed by the tactical maneuvers of the attacking ship? I much prefer something that draws me in to the situation and makes me feel like I'm there, in the moment.

I don't have to be spoonfed and can be engaged with something shown from an objective point of view.

 

[BillJ]

Deep Space 9 is not a movie, it is a television show and sci-fi shows generally don't last long. Networks are scared to commission them over other types of programming. The idea that DS9 failed, even though it ran for 7 seasons is absurd. Though it also comes from the man who thinks that modern Trek was a flop because it only/i] ran for 25 seasons.

Who thinks that Modern Trek was a flop?

TV execs are scared to commission sci-fi because it costs more to produce with less expected audience.

 

[BillJ]

I guess it all depends on whether or not you want an action sequence to be immersive and immediate or objective and detached. Do you want to be caught up in the terror facing a small survey ship faced with impossible odds or do you want to be impressed by the tactical maneuvers of the attacking ship? I much prefer something that draws me in to the situation and makes me feel like I'm there, in the moment.

I don't have to be spoonfed and can be engaged with something shown from an objective point of view.

But either can be a good choice.