You're actually asking for examples or proof of a story that hasn't been told?
There's no examples and proof, only an understanding of how a certain character might or might not act.
A serious, by the book person, a walking stack of books, a brainiac, and even geek, is perfectly capable of breaking a rule and "cheating" if something is wrong and it needs to be set right, and even if it's their personal sense of right and wrong.
Here's the thing though, what evidence is there that Kirk got into any trouble or broke any rules prior to his cheating on the K-B exam in XI? I didn't get the impression that NuKirk was some trouble maker who was constantly starting shit as a cadet. Really, he just seemed like someone who was ridiculously confident to me.
He's an a-hole at the start of the movie, he's an a-hole in the middle, and he's a-hole at the end. Never, anywhere, is there a single hint that ever changed at all. So then, he was just as much an a-hole during the first three years in the academy as he was anywhere else.
If he wasn't, this guy went from a-hole, to nice guy, to a-hole, flip flop around. He shouldn't commanding a starship, he should be on medication.
A by the book person who does not believe there is such a thing as a no-win scenario, and believes it is a defeatist attitude that will cost lives, would be exactly be the person to cheat to show this very thing.
Not really, a by the book person wouldn't change the program and cheat on a test to begin with. A by the book person would just accept the reasoning for the test being there and moving on. Thats what "by the book" means.
Until something comes along that he can't abide by and changes himself. Thus he STOPS being a pure by the book person, and thus we have CHARACTER GROWTH.
Again, not really. Hot headed people tend to hate losing and would do anything it took to win, sometimes even cheating.
Not at all. Hot headed people tend to blow up when there's something they perceive they should blow up against, and then turn away and walk off once the hot-headedness wears off. And that very rarely lasts. Once they've cooled down, they usually just back off, especially when whatever made them blow up isn't a personal slight against them. They very rarely last long enough to do things again and again, and then continue a long lasting obsession with a cheat.
Somebody grim, on the other hand, someone who bites into something and won't let go, that's the type of person who redo some impersonal test again and again to prove it and the people doing it wrong.
Yeah, because Kirk was laughing like mad when they were almost pulled into the black hole.
Yeah, Kirk's totally still a drunk bar fly whose life is going nowhere and Spock is still conflicted about dealing with his emotions!
Yep. Spock hasn't done anything to deal with his emotional state at all. The moment something remotely upsetting comes around may mean he'll blow up again, just as easily.
And Kirk is still the same a-hole, just that he now captains a starship and has it proven to him that being a-hole pays off.
These aren't even really plot holes. Most of the so called "plot holes" are rather plot conveniences. Granted, your mileage may vary on how well they work, but they aren't mistakes.
They're plotholes, and they are mistakes. And those are just the beginning. At one point, one four minute scene managed a staggering 12 plotholes and idiocies, that is one every 20 seconds, and then later one there were two more that were directly related to that four minute scene. And those are still, only the beginning.
A group of professionals aren't going to be sitting around moping and crying over that. Especially when Nero and the Narada are still out there and headed for Earth.
And where did I say they have to be sitting around moping and crying over it? Interesting to note though, the skeleton crew of the Enterprise-B managed to show more emotion over the destruction of a ship and the people in it they never saw before, while continuing to work, than this crew did over the destruction of a home planet of one of the founding species of the Federation.
Not to mention of course, that the movie never showed the audience what got destroyed either. Vulcan remains in impersonal orb with some space behind it that got blown up. It was played for cheap thrills and cool VFX, instead of the devastating loss it was.
Fine, one thing that struck me when I saw XI was how the three main characters all had one thing in common.
Kirk, lost his father to Nero as he was born.
Spock, lost his mother and his planet to Nero.
Nero, lost his wife and his home planet and blames Spock/the Federation for failing to save them.
The movie subsequently shows us how these three deal with their loss: Kirk initally lives a troubled life wasting his gifts until Pike tells him to get off his ass and honor his father, who gave his life to save his son plus 800 lives. This inspires Kirk to join starfleet and live a life that matters. Spock becomes severely conflicted by Vulcan's destruction, making irrational decisions and trying to fight against his human impulses. When Kirk gets him to relinquish command, Sarek lets Spock know that it is ok for him to feel grief and anger. Nero lets his grief overcome him and becomes a raving madman who wants everyone to feel the pain he felt.
More on this point later though.
And where's the movie dealing with this then, eh? Oh, right, nowhere.
Kirk went into the academy mostly to prove Pike wrong, piss him off, or to show him up. Living a life that matters doesn't seem to matter to him at all, anywhere.
Spock's "emotional state" was pathetically played not to mention nothing but a contrivance for Kirkie to overcome.
Nero was just screaming loon hellbent on revenge.
Any similarities are on a very shallow surface, and that surface is nowhere used to actually deepen it, or do something for it. It's just tossed aside for the next SFX shot.
How kind of you to prove me right.
Nah, you just think that.
No, sorry. Thats not how it works
Yes, sorry. That IS how it works.
Pretentious messages aren't what was so good about Star Trek though to most people. Don't presume to speak for the entirety of the fanbase.
Once again: where did I claim anything about pretentious messages?
It is true that racism was more prevalent in the 60s than today as well as the fact that racism indeed still exists. However, just because an episode talks about race doesn't mean it is automatically good.
It WAS good.
Another point I want to bring up is your assertion that people would actually listen to a Trek episode and change their ways. That is frankly a naive view point. Most people who have such narrow minded views on race and/or ethnicity tend not to be the sort to watch TV like Star Trek in the first place. Typically, liberal minded individuals are the ones more interested. So, what is the point of beating the message that racism is bad into the heads of people who already agree with that point?
:sighs: Seriously? You're actually going there. Fine.
Whether or not liberal minded individuals are more likely to watch Star Trek today, doesn't matter for two reasons:
1. Children that watch don't have a liberal or conservative mind, they're just children. But black right and left they notice, regardless of what other influences there are in their lives.
2. However more liberal minded people are watching, there's always that not-so-liberal-minded that watches, whether actually or accidentally it doesn't matter.
Finally, I never said anything about "listening too", and it has got nothing to do with being naive.
That is what the sledge hammer is for; the episode is a crowbar. Not something to listen to, but ram against their minds and force it over.
Virtually everyone, if not just plain everyone, when they see black and white, will have the same reaction as Kirk and Spock: they're the same. And then the aliens go: can't you see, with him it's on the left side, while with me it's on the right. Huh? That's ridiculous - to again, just about everyone if not just plain everyone, including those racists. And then the history of the planet comes along uncomfortably close to our present day existence, and voila. If someone doesn't immediately equate it with our racist problems (which means you got to be seriously, seriously obtuse), the crowbar has at least been slammed in, and creaked it open just a bit. Whether it was enough to over time, and other experiences and remind them of black right/left, open it completely, and make him/her realize how ridiculous our/his/her racism is, is anybody's guess...
...BUT, that creak is there to be opened up further, and make it happen with only ONE out of a million, that's still another one in the right direction.
Honestly, I get the impression that the people who think Star Trek always needs some sort of message or allegory are just looking for something to validate their own beliefs.
Nowhere, did I state anything about message or allegory, and it has got nothing to do with validating anything.
Its not polite to name names.
Again, I hear constant complaints on this and in the movies forum that XI needed a message.
Then they probably don't exist.
Doesn't matter anyway, I never said anything about message or allegory, you just pulled it out of nowhere. Those complaints aren't here, here there's me.
Exactly where did I say that every ep of TOS was golden? Nowhere, not even close. Which makes this you "La la la, I refuse to hear what you wrote, I'll just fill in there what I want to hear."
Um, you just said, "And all of them, were great stories and drama, and concisely written plots," which gives me the impression that you think every TOS ep was brilliant.[/quote]
It shouldn't, I never said anything about golden. I said about well-written, and having coherent plots. They do, even the worst, all do.
There were some seriously bad episodes of TOS, not a one of them, can even come anywhere in the neighborhood of near of close to the sheer horrifying badness that is Trek XI. I've never seen a movie as bad as Trek XI, EVER, and that's without taking into account it's supposed to be a Star Trek movie. With it...
I'm sorry, I just can't take such a ridiculous opinion seriously. The worst movie EVER? Really? Now I think you're just being a troll.
Hell, worse than Nemesis I can't wrap my head around . . .
I'm not being a troll, and Nemesis is a plothole-ridden pile of shit, but compared to XI it is fantastically well written movie, with a coherent plot and actually some friggin' depth to it, even if it is as thin as paper, and a rerun of for the umpteenth time of it's theme.
Trek XI though, has gone far beyond plothole-ridden pile of shit. It managed to become an unholy abomination of unprecedented proportions.
