I don't "get" the Maquis at all. Please explain them for me.

[Sci]

I really don't know where people came up with the idea that having property is a right versus a privilege...I may have missed that part of the US Constitution...

The Tenth Amendment makes it very clear that the fact that a given right has not been enumerated in the Constitution does not mean it does not exist.

The better question is, what are the reasonable limits of property rights? (The very fact of taxation means that property rights exist but are not unlimited.)

 

[Cepstrum]

A few comments/questions:

* I still don't understand why the UFP conceded so much territory to the CU. Sure, the CU represented an aggressive people, but doesn't evidence make it clear that Starfleet had overwhelming military superiority, both in technology and numbers? It seems that, had they wanted to, they could have turned out some warships (like they did for the Borg threat and Dominion War), and forced the CU to accept the status quo ante bellum, at the very least. Was Starfleet just too peaceful to complete the job and protect its territory without resorting to signing a treaty that gave away many of its inhabited planets? That would render moot all the talk about sacrificing for the greater good (which I mentioned initially).

* When you think about it, isn't it actually really laughable that Sisko detonated a biogenic weapon that would quickly kill all humans in their inhabited areas (or perhaps the entire planet) and nothing happened to him? I guess the death toll was zero because the Maquis were able to scramble transports in time to evacuate, but still....it was attempted mass murder. It's far beyond anything we ever seen a Starfleet officer do (AFAIK). And this is an officer of the same Starfleet that was too peaceful to beat back the inferior Cardassians?

* When Dukat talked about removing the Maquis from all Cardassian territory, I think he had also made it clear that he intended to expand that territory into a "Greater Cardassia", whose borders would be far bigger and certainly encompass all of the DMZ (as well as the Bajoran system). He was the type of Cardassian who wanted to expand Cardassia into an empire on par with the Klingons, Romulans, and the UFP. At its peak, I don't think Cardassia was ever more than a second-rate power (which he later admitted became a third-rate power). About the only thing it could do well was exploit the defenseless Bajorans, build robust space stations, and cultivate one of the most efficient, competent, and ruthless intelligence agencies, the Obsidian Order. Aside from that, Cardassia was too limited in population, resources, and territory to pose much of a threat to any of the Great Powers.

Even their most advanced ship, the Keldon-class, was hardly a match for most modern and refitted Starfleet ships. And the far more numerous Galor-class ships were even worse. So what gives? Starfleet wasn't fighting any other wars at the time, right? Were they too timid to finish the job? Just a few years later they were able to muster several fleets consisting of hundreds of ships ready to do battle against the considerably stronger Dominion.

So why did they fight the CU to a stalemate and agree to a treaty that swapped inhabited planets? Furthermore, they knew that Cardassians were a sneaky sort bent on expansion and would likely seek to clandestinely subvert the treaty or use it somehow to their advantage. The treaty turned out to be worthless, anyway: the CU didn't honor it from the start and eventually, with Dominion help, completely abrogated it.

 

[Mr Darcy]

No dictator has any problem with what his subjects do, as long as they follow his will without question; As soon as any subject dares contradicts him/his policies, this subject suddenly sees himself with no rights - all in the name of the 'greater good', of course.

I'm sure the federation would have had no problem letting the DMZ settlers have the appearance of rights if they slavishly obeyed big brother's command.
As soon as the settlers disobeyed big brother, though - that was it for their rights - in the name of the 'greater good', of course.

CommanderRaytas, truly having a right (to life, property, etc), and NOT the illusion/appearance of a right means you still have your right if you disobey some governants.

This.


Just because the politicians in the Palais de la Concorde decided that it would be in the best interest of all Federation citizens to hand Planet X over to the Cardassian Union and subsequently ordered Star Fleet to remove any citizen who does not abandon their home voluntarily, does not make it right.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

but doesn't evidence make it clear that Starfleet had overwhelming military superiority, both in technology and numbers?

No, not really. Cardassia could have been, and probably was, a match.

Sisko detonated a biogenic weapon that would quickly kill all humans in their inhabited areas (or perhaps the entire planet) and nothing happened to him? I guess the death toll was zero because the Maquis were able to scramble transports in time to evacuate

Exactly. Sisko gave fair warning of what he was about to do. He gave the Maquis plenty of time to evacuate. And in the end, the Maquis and Cardassians simply exchanged colonies. Nothing was lost.

And besides, why would Sisko have been punished? He didn't start it. The Maquis, under Eddington, were already conducting biological warfare. How honorable of those "Freedom fighters".

 

[Anwar]

The Cardassian weapon platforms, which were 100% Cadassians and NOT Dominion tech, were capable of trashing a Federation Armada with Galaxy-Class ships in it. Their defensive tech was at least on par with Fed tech.

 

[T'Girl]

The cardassians were bringing military assets on that planet (which would have been a clear violation of the treaty,)

What part of the treaty was violated? We're only given three main points, none of which state that the Federation or the Cardassain forces can not enter the dmz, ships can't be stationed there and soldier can't be posted there, and that's it. Just no military bases.

Picard & co, far from claiming treaty violation, never even pretended it was not within the cardassians' rights to do so.

Indicating it was a Cardassian right..

poisoning their colonies

If the maquis were still Federation citizens and if the world Sisko poisoned (with abundant warning) were in the dmz, then that in fact would have been a treaty violoation -- on the part of the maquis. the treaty said the the the Federation could not station or post military force within the dmz. The treaty didn't say Starfleet of the Federation government, it said the Federation. By setting up a base and operating their ship out of it, the Federation citizen in the maquis were the ones in violation of treaty, and by way of them, the Federation in general. In forcing the maquis to evacuate their military base, Starfleet (through Sisko) was upholding a legal treaty.

Given that Sisco know ahead of time that the maquis had the ability to evacuate, and that he gave the maquis advance notice, not a single person on that planet was put in the tiniest amount of danger.

The federation abandoned all the DMZ settlers equally.

Just so we don't forget, it was the maquis that lead the settlers down the garden path, not the Federation, The Federation made an effort to remove the settlers prior to the beginning of any operations by the maquis.

Without the existence of the maquis likely the Cardassian Union never would have allied themselves with the Dominion in the first place.

Without the existence of the maquis the Klingon Empire wouldn't have gone to war with the Cardassian Union.

Without the existence of the maquis the Jem'hadar would not have attack planets supporting the maquis on either side of the border.

Without the existence of the maquis the Dominion war might have been significantly shorter.

Thank you maquis, you're a bunch of heroes.

 

[Nightdiamond]

When the Federation turned some of them over to Cardassia, the colonists that chose stay had to give up their Fed citizenship, which is why Starfleet wouldn't render any aid to them anymore.

There is no mention whatsoever that federation settlerrs from the DMZ had to give up their citizenship.

ONLY the citizens on Dorvan V had to give up their citizenship, and there were large differences betweeen their situation and the DMZ settlers' situation on a number of issues I previously mentioned:
"There is compelling evidence that Dorvan V lies beyond the DMZ, in cardassian territory proper:
The cardassians were bringing military assets on that planet (which would have been a clear violation of the treaty, were it in the dmz) and Picard&co, far from claiming treaty violation, never even pretended it was not within the cardassians' rights to do so.
The cardassians seemed to have the legal right to forcibly evacuate the federation settlers - which they would not have had, were the planet in the DMZ."


The federation abandoned all the DMZ settlers equally.

There's mention that Federation settlers that chose to stay on planets given to Cardassia had to give up their citizenship in order to stay.

T'Girl had it correct as she pointed out earlier;

The DMV seems to have been created 20 years after the settlers came to Dorvan v, which was when the issue began.

The new treaty created the DMZ - "Journey's End"

Before that, Dorvan V was simply on the Federation/Cardassian border ("Journey's End" also)

When they settled on Dorvan, they were warned that the planet was disputed by Cardassia, yet somewhat under FED control. "Journey's End"

This assumed they had some type of claim of Dorvan because they 'turned it over' to the Cardassians after the new treaty.


If a Federation citizen chose to stay, they were under Cardassian Jurisdiction- that means laws, statutes etc. and that means they can't rely on Fed laws anymore.

How can a Federation colonist live under Cardassian jurisdiction and expect to be protected by Federation laws?

Various episodes (especially DS9) speak about the Federation "abandoning" either the Maquis, or the colonists.

Implying that those colonists had to relinquish their citizenship.

Or Starfleet not rendering aid, not just the Dorvan V settlers, but the Maquis or colonists in those areas.

It becomes inconsistent- either they're still Federation citizens at one point, or they left the Federation at another, or they were abandoned by the Federation at yet another.

 

[Jamee999]

C'mon guys, we all know that when the government tells you to do something, you do it.

 

[Sci]

C'mon guys, we all know that when the government tells you to do something, you do it.

Oh?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

but doesn't evidence make it clear that Starfleet had overwhelming military superiority, both in technology and numbers?

No, not really. Cardassia could have been, and probably was, a match.

Not without dominion technology and help.
Their pre-dominion ships and technology were repeatedly shown to be far inferior to the federation's.

Sisko detonated a biogenic weapon that would quickly kill all humans in their inhabited areas (or perhaps the entire planet) and nothing happened to him? I guess the death toll was zero because the Maquis were able to scramble transports in time to evacuate

Exactly. Sisko gave fair warning of what he was about to do. He gave the Maquis plenty of time to evacuate. And in the end, the Maquis and Cardassians simply exchanged colonies. Nothing was lost.

And besides, why would Sisko have been punished? He didn't start it. The Maquis, under Eddington, were already conducting biological warfare. How honorable of those "Freedom fighters".

What non-sense:
Mr. Laser Beam, giving a warning does NOT excuse or give you the right to use biogenic weapons on your people.
Being reasonable sure all will survive does NOT excuse or give you the right to use biological weapons on a federation colony you are sworn to protect.

"How honorable of those "Freedom fighters"."
At least the maquis used biological weapons against an enemy.
Sisko used biological weapons against HIS OWN PEOPLE (a federation colony that was NOT on Eddington's ship, "starting it" - not that this excuse is more than a bad joke)!
What Sisko did was twice as bas as what Eddington did. How "honourable" of Sisko.
Eddington went to prison for what he did; Sisko received no punishment for his worse deeds.

 

[Cepstrum]

I see there is disagreement over whether the CU was a match for Starfleet. I thought based on on-screen evidence (such as the fact that Galor-class ships were seldom a match for Starfleet's, that the Maquis could make such effective hit-and-run strikes, and that the Klingons, who are arguably Starfleet's equal, went in an completely wiped out Cardassia.) Though the examples I cited could all be refuted; I won't bother to do it right now. As for non on-screen evidence, I thought the quasi-official stats demonstrated that Cardassian tech, population, and resources lagged behind that of the other Powers. Wasn't that why they went to exploit nearby, defenseless Bajor? I don't recall ever hearing about them fighting real wars against significant opponents, except for the recent border skirmishes during the on-again, off-again, UFP-CU conflict.

As for Sisko not being punished: I'm not sure I agree that he didn't put the colonists in absolutely no danger. He did not give a very long warning. What if some people had been out far from a settlement on a hike, or foraging, or undergoing surgery, etc.? I guess they could be beamed up, but was Sisko sure there were enough transports and that everyone could be safely evacuated? I don't think Sisko and Eddington are morally equivalent. Eddington was an avowed terrorist; Sisko was a Starfleet officer. I'm not trying to argue who's in the right here, Starfleet or the Maquis (I still don't know).

What I find surprising, however, is that Starfleet allowed Sisko to take unilateral action that rendered an inhabited planet lethal to all humans. I'd think Starfleet would not tolerate that sort of action. Maybe in Archer's or Kirk's era, but not in the late 24th century. And this is the same Starfleet that agreed to completely stop all cloaking research just to satisfy the Romulans, even though it seem the Romulans weren't in the position to be making that kind of demand at the time. Recall how later Sisko and Ross were in no mood to celebrate the destruction of Cardassia, even though the CU was responsible for initiating the costly and bloody war. Sisko also felt horrible about the death of a Romulan senator, a criminal, and a few others in In the Pale Moonlight, even though it was essential for winning the war. I'm not saying whether Sisko was being prudent/correct in taking the biogenic action, just that I can't believe he wasn't reprimanded by Starfleet, or that it didn't later bother Sisko's conscience. I suppose he figured that by taking that action he severely disrupted Maquis activity by forcing the surrender of Eddington, and the Maquis, right or wrong, were a huge sticking point between the UFP and the CU. He probably figured he was ultimately saving many lives at a low risk. But still....



I'm also not sure I agree that it was the Maquis that were principally -- or even partially -- responsible for Dukat inviting the Dominion to Cardassia. I thought he did it because Cardassia had been devastated by the Klingons, and that only a side effect of that was that the Maquis were essentially left alone and had a free reign in the DMZ -- not that they threatened CU territory proper enough to incite Dukat to join the Dominion. ?

 

[Anwar]

Like I said, TNG showed that the Cardassians were weaker and less advanced than the Feds, but DS9 showed that Cardassian Weapon platforms (not Dominion tech) could easily thrash a combined Fed/Klingon/Romulan fleet.

And the Cardies fought a skirmish with the Klingons for...18 years was it? Garak and Bashir talked about it in "Way of the Warrior".

 

[neozeks]

I think there's no doubt the CU was no match for the full might of Starfleet. But from the perspective of the UFP (which is huge and has to deal with Romulans, Klingons, Gorn, Tholians and so on) the Cardassian war was probably a relatively minor conflict, a border war, not worth commiting their full forces to the fight. We do learn it has supposedly killed millions but we don't know how many were Federate casualties and given the size of the Federation even that number is probably minor. So yeah, militarily the Feds could have crushed the Cardassians but there was no political will for that.

As for Sisko, I chalk that to bad writing (which is surprising cause I think Peter Allan Fields wrote that one and he wrote some of Trek's best episodes). Indeed, it is inexcusable. I can see Starfleet letting him walk away without full punishment (they needed him for the Dominion and he got lucky in that no one was killed) but no punishment at all? Still, that one wrong doesn't make the Maquis right, either.

 

[T'Girl]

... giving a warning does NOT excuse or give you the right to use biogenic weapons on your people.
Being reasonable sure all will survive does NOT excuse or give you the right to use biological weapons on a federation colony you are sworn to protect.

The Solosos Three squatter's camp wasn't a Federation colony, nor in Federation territory. When did Sisko ever swear to protect it? If anything it was Sisko sworn duty to shut it down.

Sisko's use of the trilithium resin is no different that a modern day police or FBI squad throwing in tear gas to flush out a group of criminals. If you breath in concentrated tear gas long enough it will eventual kill you. Tear gas naturally dissipates in time and so did the effects of the trilithium resin.

EDDINGTON: You're talking about turning hundreds of thousands of people into homeless refugees.

Homeless, ridiculous, everyone of the maquis camp-followers had a home on a planet inside the Federation, the one that the Federation was going to move them to in the first place. Solosos Three was in Cardassian territory, If it had been on the Federation side of the border, it actual would have been a Federation territorial colony and not a maquis one. Sisko moved the maquis off of a Cardassian territorial planet, using a weapon that is harmless to Cardassians.

The Federation council, the Cardassian government and Starfleet would all have endorsed the results of Sisko's actions, and maybe the actions themselves.

-----

What I find surprising, however, is that Starfleet allowed Sisko to take unilateral action that rendered an inhabited planet lethal to all humans.

It seems unlikely that Starfleet knew of Sisko's actions before hand. Howeve, while the resin rendered the planet uninhabitable to Humans, it obviously didn't have that effect upon Cardassians, it was one of their planets and I doubt they were complaining.

 

[Anwar]

Starfleet didn't know what Sisko was doing. Dax and Sisko admitted it at the end of the episode.

Also, it's for the best that Eddington surrendered when he did. How many times would Worf and Kira have just sat back and let Sisko get away with gassing planets before they went for "relieved of duty" thing Spock and McCoy pulled on Kirk occasionally?

 

[Nightdiamond]

Doesn't it also seem like the Federation at times wants so much to placate the "other side" that they are much harder on their own kind?

The Cardassian have down so much worse, from the atrocities on Bajor, the setlik 3 incident, attempting to invade Minos Korva.

Just the Minos Korva thing is enough to make the Federation play hardball, but instead they reward the Cardassians a year later with planets.

With the Dominion, they sat and waited as the Dominion built up enough strength to launch a full scale invasion later on.

Sisko was willing to do all of that to the Maquis, but when it came to the Dominion, they took such a soft hands approach.


Still, like the O.P's, and T'Girl's point, I don't get the Maqui's motivation-they are were NOT poor or in a desperate need to immigrate.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sisko used biological weapons against HIS OWN PEOPLE (a federation colony that was NOT on Eddington's ship, "starting it" - not that this excuse is more than a bad joke)!

No, it was a Maquis colony.

 

[stj]

There is not really any connection between the Maquis case (in fact, lack of one,) and Sisko's culpability.

That stuff which can unfailingly poison humans, and only humans, and will affect nothing else, not even when it decays, and which has no antidote but which can be unfailingly delivered to every part of an entire planet is easy enough to write into the script. The writers just avoided big words so apparently very notice this is a case of convenient technology helping to resolve a dramatic problem.

But if such wonderful weapons existed, the DS9 writers apparently thought the Federation should be the kind of place which would have it easily available and have a delivery system. Which would plainly mean that the use of an ostensibly nonlethal weapon like this is Federation policy.
All of course that need happen is a problem in communication or evacuation or a literal die hard, and there is a casualty of this nonviolent antihuman weapon. The Federation has no problem with inflicting capital punishment for defying, or merely failing to comply with, an evacuation order!

None of this may have been dealt with. But the notion that Sisko created the weapon and devised it's delivery system on the spur of the moment is preposterous. The show talked as though it was all Sisko and all due to his obsession but obviously that's just foolishness. Sisko as such has no culpability for breaking Federation policy. This is proved by his getting away with it. It's Janeway who could reasonably get away with breaking Federation policy, but Sisko was supposed to be part of a functional chain of command.

Personally, I think all talk of surgical attacks and precision guided attacks (which is what the amazing weapon Sisko pulls out of his ass amounts to,) in practice is always a swindle. I don't think ABC warfare can target enemy forces. The only justification for attacking civilians (theirs or "ours") is necessity. Not expediency, not safety, not bigotry, not a supposed need for resources. Facing an overwhelming military force in occupation of the homeland is pretty much the only situation which even raises the possibility of such justification.

 

[T'Girl]

... and forced the CU to accept the status quo ante bellum, at the very least.

I think it was more a case that after years of warfare both the Federation and the Cardassians

finally conceded to a uti possidetis instead.

 

[Cepstrum]

^^^

ok, I have no idea what that means. Do you know Latin? Or are a lawyer? *or* is that not Latin and you just made it up? please explain.