I Don't Get Neelix and Kes

[Six of Twelve]

I think Ziyal is supposed to be the equivalent of about 20 or 21 by the time she meets Garak. She is a bit naive from all those years being a slave to the Breen, where there was little to no opportunity for social interactions, but I don't think that she's a teenager still. Her with Garak is a bit of a stretch, to be sure, but they were both lonely people, and I don't get the idea that their relationship had ever progressed to having sex.

So far as Neelix and Kes go, I think they were both adults, and perhaps their cultures have different ideas about age differences in relationships than do humans typically.

I really liked that episode when Neelix found Dexa and Brax, and got himself a ready-made family. It's a very touching episode.

 

[Prax]

I'm not sure how old Ziyal is supposed to be as she's played by a bunch of different actresses. She does look very young in the episode where they find her, but much older in the occupation episodes.

Garak OTOH looks to be much older than Neelix(to me, at least). l don't know if Garak's relationship was sexual either, but they do share passionate kisses. Is Neelix shown to do that, too?

 

[Trekkin]

Just another example of things Voyager gets overly criticized for that others shows doing the same thing did not

Characters criticise it within the show, including Garek himself. Plus, you know... she dies before it goes anywhere. There's issues with Ziyal (she's fridged and forgotten so damn fast. Damar brings her up more the heroes do), but her realationship with Garek being broadly presented as a good thing isn't one of them.

It's easier to swallow 'complex' issues, when they're presented as being a wee-bit complex. Handwaving away possible statutory rape with 'well she physically looks older, and she acts mature for her age' is not that. The 'reasoning' hits too close to actual rapists excuses for it to avoid the side eye.

The thing with Kes a tough topic, and one that's a very real and contentious issue for people with various developmental disorders. It was probably beyond the means of any Trek show to thoroughly deal with it.

 

[Refuge]

They gave us a foundation with Kes's race though. The whole premise of the show began with the Ocampa so we got to have glimpse of their society and to see it in action. There were elders and old ways as well as new ways and demographics we could relate to. Like dog years. Seeing Kes I didn't automatically try and equate her as being almost two. Didn't try and work out the Ocampa calendar cycles or anything like that. An old Ocampa guy seemed just an old guy and Kes was like a young woman.

Neelix in a way was always going to be a harder sell. Apart from the blue guy on Voyager, Neelix looks the most alien to start off with. He isn't even in anything close to being a uniform. Yet for all we knew Ocampas think Talaxians are.. dreamy, lol.

 

[Sakonna]

Yeah, I never hear anyone complaining about Garak(who's in his 40's or 50's?) and Ziyal(teenager?)

Just another example of things Voyager gets overly criticized for that others shows doing the same thing did not

I think Ziyal is supposed to be the equivalent of about 20 or 21 by the time she meets Garak. She is a bit naive from all those years being a slave to the Breen, where there was little to no opportunity for social interactions, but I don't think that she's a teenager still.

Garak and Ziyal are also not dating. She is in love with him, in a very youthful way, and he understands they can't ever truly be together, but instead they develop an emotionally intimate friendship.

It's an interesting comparison to Neelix/Kes. I'd never paralleled them before, but when it was pointed out, I was struck by the fact that I understand the Garak/Ziyal dynamic far more than the Neelix/Kes one. And Garak/Ziyal only appear in 4 episodes together (with a recast throwing things off in the middle) as compared to three solid seasons for Neelix/Kes. I know what Garak and Ziyal want from each other, I see what their bond offers to each of them, I understand how they got to where they were.

From a storytelling standpoint, I don't think a Neelix/Kes relationship was inherently doomed. The age thing is loaded and increases the degree of difficulty, but nothing that strong, clear execution couldn't have overcome. They just didn't develop it enough, it always feels like the writers can't win the audience over because they themselves are struggling to understand what this relationship is.

The most damning thing is that Neelix & Kes don't even get a breakup scene at the end of it -- Neelix & Kes's body do, but since we later learn it wasn't Kes in control at the time, we really have only speculation about why it stopped working for her.

 

[Sophie74656]

Garak and Ziyal were romantically involved. They were shown kissing and dating.

As for Neelix and Kes i maintain that when they broke up kes was still in full control. There was nothing to indicate exactly when he took over. Everything she said to him during that scene flowed from previos scenes showing her becoming unhappy with the relationship

 

[Lynx]

Tieran was in control of Kes when she broke up with Neelix.

As we could see at the end of the episode, when Tieran was forced to leave Kes's body, he immediately took over Ameron instead.

Kes had probably become more and more unhappy with the relationship but all evidence point at the fact that Tieran was in control of her when the break-up happened.

Personally I think that the break-up was very badly handled by the writers. It should have taken place already in season 2 and during 2-3 episodes where it should have been clear that they were going to break up, not this half-a***d break-up that they came up with in "Warlord". However, the writers had problems in handling and describing relationships, both in TNG and Voyager.

As for "Warlord", it's one of my top 5 Voyager episodes.

 

[marlboro]

What was the point of having Kes' people age so quickly? You would think that the writers would realize that this would present a problem if the show stayed on the air for several years. It would be different if they used the fact that she aged rapidly to tell interesting stories, but they didn't do that.

I actually watched Warlord this morning. Probably my favorite Kes episode. The character and actress had potential. The opening scene with Neelix in the holodeck was dreadful though. This is the scene you want to hook your audience with? A humanoid hedgehog squealing in delight as he gets a foot rub?

The Ocampa should have aged at a rate somewhat similar to humans. Neelix should have been written as a tiny bit more Han Solo (space rogue/guide) and and lot less like Jar Jar. Problem solved.

 

[Sophie74656]

What was the point of having Kes' people age so quickly? You would think that the writers would realize that this would present a problem if the show stayed on the air for several years. It would be different if they used the fact that she aged rapidly to tell interesting stories, but they didn't do that.

I actually watched Warlord this morning. Probably my favorite Kes episode. The character and actress had potential. The opening scene with Neelix in the holodeck was dreadful though. This is the scene you want to hook your audience with? A humanoid hedgehog squealing in delight as he gets a foot rub?

The Ocampa should have aged at a rate somewhat similar to humans. Neelix should have been written as a tiny bit more Han Solo (space rogue/guide) and and lot less like Jar Jar. Problem solved.

It wouldn't be a problem since they live for 9 years and the show would be expected to run for 7 or 8 years. If the show ended up running longer than her lifespan that would ultimately lead to some episodes dealing with her death which could have been some great dramatic moments

 

[Lynx]

What was the point of having Kes' people age so quickly? You would think that the writers would realize that this would present a problem if the show stayed on the air for several years. It would be different if they used the fact that she aged rapidly to tell interesting stories, but they didn't do that.

I actually watched Warlord this morning. Probably my favorite Kes episode. The character and actress had potential. The opening scene with Neelix in the holodeck was dreadful though. This is the scene you want to hook your audience with? A humanoid hedgehog squealing in delight as he gets a foot rub?

The Ocampa should have aged at a rate somewhat similar to humans. Neelix should have been written as a tiny bit more Han Solo (space rogue/guide) and and lot less like Jar Jar. Problem solved.

I agree with most of what you have written.

I think that the ridiculous short lifespan was a mistake by the writers. They didn't think when they created it, it was more like "oh, we hven't had that one before". When they realized their mistake (which they obviously did snce the lifespan was mentioned more and more seldom), they just moved on like "ah, never mind, the viewers won't notice". The same for the idea that the Ocampa could only have one child.

I'm sure that if Kes had stayed, they would have prolonged her lifespan. There were hints for that in "Cold Fire".

As for Neelix, you do have a point about him being more like Han Solo but personally I do appreciate his funny sides too.

Neslix was a very complex character. In that aspect he was one of Star Trek's best characters. His strange behaviors were due to what had happened to him earlier when he lost his family in a terrible war. That's was the reason why he always tried to be helpful and cheer people up. He was also terrible afraid of notbeing good enough for being a crewmember, therefore his many whims that he came up with, like being the Morale Officer, Ambassador, guide, journalist and whatever he imagined. In his eager to please, he was over-doing most of it which sometimes got the opposite effect of what he wanted. His intentions were always good.

Personally I like the little hedgehog, even if he could be annoying sometimes.

At least he was never boring.

 

[Gary7]

I agree that the short age of the Ocampa was a flaw... because usually the more complicated life forms have longer lives, especially if endowed with a high intelligence. Doesn't make sense for the Ocampa. But the writers needed some kind of plot device for stories and it did serve a purpose. I'd rather it have been that Kes had some kind of genetic defect that some Ocampa would suffer, that would speed up their lifecycle, causing them to age much faster than normal. Of course with the EMH having a sophisticated program, you've figure he could do some kind of genetic "magic" to remove the defect. But they could have eliminated that by making it some kind of core issue that if attempted to fix, would cause the DNA to degrade... no way to fix.

Neelix was annoying in the beginning, but settled down a bit over time. Still once in a while, he'd go way over the top, perhaps even to the point where you'd feel embarrassed for him. It was good to have this kind of contrast to someone like Tuvok who was too well composed and stolid most of the time. I have to say that it took me a long time to come around and appreciate Neelix more. It's key scenes where you see the true fabric of his personality come to the surface, and as Lynx said, reveals a complicated man. He can really shine and demonstrate his keen intentions to do well by others. He is genuinely interested in pleasing everyone and his thoughtfulness is easy to take for granted.

 

[Sakonna]

Didn't the start backing away from the lifespan thing pretty quickly with the Ocampa? I seem to recall that the Ocampa in "Cold Fire" were much longer lived, with some insinuations that they could survive longer once they left their homeworld and were traveling in space. It's been awhile, so my recall on this may be faulty, but I was left with the feeling that they were setting up some "now she's going to live to 100!" handwave to get themselves out of it later in the series.

Garak and Ziyal were romantically involved. They were shown kissing and dating.

As for Neelix and Kes i maintain that when they broke up kes was still in full control. There was nothing to indicate exactly when he took over. Everything she said to him during that scene flowed from previos scenes showing her becoming unhappy with the relationship

I recently rewatched the DS9 episodes in question, they're not dating. In the "In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light" two-parter there's a lot of explicit lines about how Ziyal would like to be with Garak, but they're not actually together. Garak and Ziyal have a full scene where they talk it out, and Kira tells Dukat it's just a crush and describes them as having a friendship, etc.. The next (and last) time they're seen together is "Call To Arms", and the first kiss is the final moment of their last shared scene. And it's Ziyal just going for it, and Garak being surprised, letting her have the moment, and then looking immediately sad and pensive after. They are a little touch-y occasionally -- they walk arm & arm once, they do this parting Cardassian palm-to-palm touching thing -- but it's the physical intimacy of close friends, not lovers.

It's been longer since I've seen "Warlord" (one of my favorite VOY episodes), but I did think they presented it as Tieran was in full control from the moment he jumps into the body. But -- how's this for head cannon -- Tieran had access to all of Kes's memories, didn't he? I could totally believe he was accessing Kes's true feelings and expressing what she herself had been on the brink of saying. That would be the most strategic way for Kieran to get Neelix out of the way while he worked on his plan -- use something real from the host body, rather than just making something up that wouldn't be believable.

 

[Lynx]

Didn't the start backing away from the lifespan thing pretty quickly with the Ocampa? I seem to recall that the Ocampa in "Cold Fire" were much longer lived, with some insinuations that they could survive longer once they left their homeworld and were traveling in space. It's been awhile, so my recall on this may be faulty, but I was left with the feeling that they were setting up some "now she's going to live to 100!" handwave to get themselves out of it later in the series.



I recently rewatched the DS9 episodes in question, they're not dating. In the "In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light" two-parter there's a lot of explicit lines about how Ziyal would like to be with Garak, but they're not actually together. Garak and Ziyal have a full scene where they talk it out, and Kira tells Dukat it's just a crush and describes them as having a friendship, etc.. The next (and last) time they're seen together is "Call To Arms", and the first kiss is the final moment of their last shared scene. And it's Ziyal just going for it, and Garak being surprised, letting her have the moment, and then looking immediately sad and pensive after. They are a little touch-y occasionally -- they walk arm & arm once, they do this parting Cardassian palm-to-palm touching thing -- but it's the physical intimacy of close friends, not lovers.

It's been longer since I've seen "Warlord" (one of my favorite VOY episodes), but I did think they presented it as Tieran was in full control from the moment he jumps into the body. But -- how's this for head cannon -- Tieran had access to all of Kes's memories, didn't he? I could totally believe he was accessing Kes's true feelings and expressing what she herself had been on the brink of saying. That would be the most strategic way for Kieran to get Neelix out of the way while he worked on his plan -- use something real from the host body, rather than just making something up that wouldn't be believable.

You're right about "Cold Fire" and that the Ocampa there had managed to prolong their lifespans.
And yes, I assume that Tieran had access to Kes's memories, knew about the fading relationship with Neelix and used it to get rid of Neelix who otherwise could have been an obstacle to his plans.

 

[Tracy Trek]

There may have been something said that would contradict it, but I've often thought that the Caretaker did something to the Ocampa to shorten their lifespan. To modify it for their lives to fit into 9 years instead of 90. And he may have been responsible for their odd reproductive restrictions as well. Perhaps both things were for population control.

Because the Ocampa in Cold Fire were starting to live longer. And because Kes' mental abilities were starting to grow after she left her homeworld. I think the Caretaker was holding them back and keeping them childlike and dependant.

 

[Sophie74656]

Didn't the start backing away from the lifespan thing pretty quickly with the Ocampa? I seem to recall that the Ocampa in "Cold Fire" were much longer lived, with some insinuations that they could survive longer once they left their homeworld and were traveling in space. It's been awhile, so my recall on this may be faulty, but I was left with the feeling that they were setting up some "now she's going to live to 100!" handwave to get themselves out of it later in the series.



I recently rewatched the DS9 episodes in question, they're not dating. In the "In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light" two-parter there's a lot of explicit lines about how Ziyal would like to be with Garak, but they're not actually together. Garak and Ziyal have a full scene where they talk it out, and Kira tells Dukat it's just a crush and describes them as having a friendship, etc.. The next (and last) time they're seen together is "Call To Arms", and the first kiss is the final moment of their last shared scene. And it's Ziyal just going for it, and Garak being surprised, letting her have the moment, and then looking immediately sad and pensive after. They are a little touch-y occasionally -- they walk arm & arm once, they do this parting Cardassian palm-to-palm touching thing -- but it's the physical intimacy of close friends, not lovers.

It's been longer since I've seen "Warlord" (one of my favorite VOY episodes), but I did think they presented it as Tieran was in full control from the moment he jumps into the body. But -- how's this for head cannon -- Tieran had access to all of Kes's memories, didn't he? I could totally believe he was accessing Kes's true feelings and expressing what she herself had been on the brink of saying. That would be the most strategic way for Kieran to get Neelix out of the way while he worked on his plan -- use something real from the host body, rather than just making something up that wouldn't be believable.

There may have been something said that would contradict it, but I've often thought that the Caretaker did something to the Ocampa to shorten their lifespan. To modify it for their lives to fit into 9 years instead of 90. And he may have been responsible for their odd reproductive restrictions as well. Perhaps both things were for population control.

Because the Ocampa in Cold Fire were starting to live longer. And because Kes' mental abilities were starting to grow after she left her homeworld. I think the Caretaker was holding them back and keeping them childlike and dependant.

There was nothing specifically said about this but I agree. He referred to them as children so he probably retreated them as such. They most likely lost their powers because they simply atrophied. They became completely dependant on the caretaker and did nothing for themselves so their powers went away from lack of use. The ones who left kept using their powers so they never went away. That may be what led to their longer lives. As for children the most reasonable explanation is that they often have more than one child at a time. Kes said she had an uncle so they do have more than one child.

 

[Prax]

There was nothing specifically said about this but I agree.

Actually, Tanis says something to this effect. When referring to the Caretaker, he says: "...she's so different from the entity you knew. He was only interested in maintaining the status quo. He kept our people servile and weak. Suspiria taught us to develop our psychokinetic skills that had lain dormant for so long. We have abilities far beyond anything you can imagine."

I'm not sure how reliable Tanis is, but it makes some sense. He also mentions that Suspiria gave them some sort of technology that helped them eventually double their lifespan 3 generations ago.

 

[marlboro]

I came to Voyager very, very late, but when I watched the pilot I assumed that the search for the female Caretaker would be an ongoing storyline.

 

[JeffinOakland]

He's a porcupine and she's a gerbil. What's not to get?

 

[Refuge]

There was nothing specifically said about this but I agree. He referred to them as children so he probably retreated them as such. They most likely lost their powers because they simply atrophied. They became completely dependant on the caretaker and did nothing for themselves so their powers went away from lack of use. The ones who left kept using their powers so they never went away. That may be what led to their longer lives. As for children the most reasonable explanation is that they often have more than one child at a time. Kes said she had an uncle so they do have more than one child.

(chakoteya.net transcripts)
TANIS: I suppose we were like you once. Innocent, naïve. But when Suspiria brought us here three hundred years ago, she began to teach us how we could become stronger than we ever could have on the homeworld.
KES: Suspiria. Is that your Caretaker?
TANIS: We don't think of her as a Caretaker. Her species is actually called the Nacene.
KES: Then you do know her. Where is she?
TANIS: Nearby. But she's so different from the entity you knew. He was only interested in maintaining the status quo. He kept our people servile and weak. Suspiria taught us to develop our psychokinetic skills that had lain dormant for so long. We have abilities far beyond anything you can imagine.
KES: Like what?
(The plants grow rapidly. Buds become blooms, seedlings fully grown vegetables.)
TANIS [telepathically]: We can enhance life. And that's only the beginning, Kes. I have to return to the station. We'll talk again.

 

[Trekkin]

He's a porcupine and she's a gerbil. What's not to get?

The physics?