I don't care anymore
- Thread starter MadBaggins
- Start date
Star Trek 5 towers head and shoulders above the utter blandness that infests large portions of the TNG era films - practically all of Insurrection and Nemesis. I'd take the heart of ST 5 replete with all its failings over the sheer, unadulterated nothingness of those films any day.WendellM said:
"God" in heaven, why would you mention that abomination (the only Trek I consider non-canon) in connection to what could be a wonderful rebirth?
70+ decks...
Hokey grav/jet boots used only for a punchline...
Bad (Scotty head-whackingly bad) "jokes"...
Baked beans...
Semi-naked, 55+ year-old Uhura
Sybok...
<shudder>
The horror...
The horror....
Starship Polaris said:
You're accusing Gene Roddenberry of pretension.
Which is fair.
Leaving aside whether "The Cage" could be considered "great" (as one of the best episodes of TOS, I'd say "yes," since, if I didn't believe TOS was, at its best, great, I'd have no reason to be here), Roddenberry at least had the sense to solicit works from proven SF authors who were capable of greatness--he was even willing to entertain the possibilty of working with Ellison again on what would become TMP. Unless you want to count Diane Duane (and I really don't), this practice was all but abolished by the time of TNG and never came back. Meanwhile, William Gibson writes an episode for X-Files and The Wire has crime fiction luminaries like Richard Price, George Pelecanos and Dennis Lehane writing stories and scripts for them.
Brutal Strudel said:
Starship Polaris said:
You're accusing Gene Roddenberry of pretension.
Which is fair.
Leaving aside whether "The Cage" could be considered "great" (as one of the best episodes of TOS, I'd say "yes," since, if I didn't believe TOS was, at its best, great, I'd have no reason to be here), Roddenberry at least had the sense to solicit works from proven SF authors who were capable of greatness--he was even willing to entertain the possibilty of working with Ellison again on what would become TMP. Unless you want to count Diane Duane (and I really don't), this practice was all but abolished by the time of TNG and never came back. Meanwhile, William Gibson writes an episode for X-Files and The Wire has crime fiction luminaries like Richard Price, George Pelecanos and Dennis Lehane writing stories and scripts for them.
Is it just me or is this guy making alot of sense. Roddenberry also relished people coming along and doing it better than him and he encouraged and sheperded it. He knew well enough to step out of his own way and attract only the greatest scripts, and most importantly, actually knowing which scripts are in fact greater than others regardless of whatever credentials they might have. Star Trek worked through him and for him but that was his genius - To bring together the right elements to make the perfect cake. Like the difference between a Brahms smphony and a Salieri symphony. It's not the notes you put in, it's the notes you leave out.
I'm forced to agree with you. It feels wrong, because I know one of the writers for Berman-trek (and I hope she's not reading this), but I really think that an SF writer's sensibility produces better Trek than a Hollywood writer does, usually.
EDIT: "than"
Um, dude? You don't have to be here and, you know, you're allowed to have whatever opinions you like--sure, I understand where you might not care to wrestle over every detail of an event that's fifteen months away, and I might even agree with you--but we've been talking about this movie since April 2007, when XI was twenty months from its original release. We'll find something to talk about, and there's no need for you to spoil our fun.
In short, if you're not interested, get the frak out and come back when you are.
Not to put too fine a point on it.
"Joe Six-pack" is a funner way of saying ,"The average person". And to appeal to Joe Six-pack, the movie probably needs to more less "Star Trek" and more "General Sci-fi". Let's face it: people don't like the really brainy stuff. They like stuff that's fun to watch. Thinking is good, but you have to limit the amount of thinking they have to do.
Well, I find that many of the most successful works of art have layers of meaning to them. "Joe Six-Pack" (or my eight year-old, apparantly) is welcome to enjoy the pretty explosions or whatever, while I consider the subtext or the implications of what's said and done. If the film is well done, there's no real reason that it can't appeal to both demographics (Joe "Six Pack", and Dean "Espresso Sipper").
^Well said. It seems to me that if they can't make a Trek film that is true to the spirit of TOS, that silly-cerbral mix of Buster Crabbe and William Shakespeare which took itself very seriously while still managing to be campy fun, then they should go and make something else. Hell, since the writers last did The Transformers, maybe they could do [/i]The Micronauts[/i] next.
I'm not trying to be snide here, I loved the Micronauts when I was kid. More to the point, after all those god-awful seasons of Bermna, Braga and the the suits thinking they knew how to make a better Trek than TOS, the last thing we need is somebody else trying to remake it their own image. Thankfully, we at least have the comfort that the writers and director are all fond of TOS to go on. There is a good chance they will honor TOS even as they put their own stamp on it.
Really, my biggest fear is that this movie, with its time-travel assassins and "This Is Your Trek" jumping around inTrek pre-history will be too inbred and Trekkish to appeal to fans like me and the general public alike. But we won't really know till we see it.
Fact is, most of us Trekkies are as much J6P as we are Dean Esspresso Sipper--check the General Sci-Fi forum and see the quick death many high brow threads die while threads on genre schlock just keep on truckin'.
I'm not trying to be snide here, I loved the Micronauts when I was kid. More to the point, after all those god-awful seasons of Bermna, Braga and the the suits thinking they knew how to make a better Trek than TOS, the last thing we need is somebody else trying to remake it their own image. Thankfully, we at least have the comfort that the writers and director are all fond of TOS to go on. There is a good chance they will honor TOS even as they put their own stamp on it.
Really, my biggest fear is that this movie, with its time-travel assassins and "This Is Your Trek" jumping around inTrek pre-history will be too inbred and Trekkish to appeal to fans like me and the general public alike. But we won't really know till we see it.
Fact is, most of us Trekkies are as much J6P as we are Dean Esspresso Sipper--check the General Sci-Fi forum and see the quick death many high brow threads die while threads on genre schlock just keep on truckin'.
Ooh-RAH! :thumbsup:
I know I've been away from TrekBBS the last year or so, and most of you may not remember me. But, MadBaggins, if you aren't interested in chatting here between now and then, do what I do. Take my leave, go elsewhere for a while until Trek is closer to hitting a theatre, or tv.
Later!
-Tibbetts
I have to admit that I'm a bit scared about this Transformers guy being the writer. I couldn't make it past the first 15 minutes. It was just too boring. There was A GIANT SCORPION ROBOT but I was still bored! I blame the dialogue.
Good point. I really think that Berman found TOS to be unbearable in some ways, and wanted to distance latter-day Trek from it.
I wouldn't worry about that. I think that there won't be too much "continuity porn." Or at least, I hope there won't be!
Well, yes, that's true. I really see a fundamental disconnet between (to give two popular examples) TMP and TWoK. TMP is a more cerebral type of film, whereas Wrath of Khan is clear a "J6P" type of movie. They're both Trek, and you can trace their respective lineages to one or more TOS episodes. My feeling, however, is that the last, well, nine Trek movies have been "J6P"-type movies, and it's getting a bit old! I'd like something to think about, please?
I'm one of the more vocal TMP boosters around here. For all its flaws, it's still the best of the lot, with TWoK coming in a very close second. TWoK is more successful at achieving what it sets out to do but the scope of TMP was so much more interesting and ambitious that it is better as a failure than TWoK is as a success, if you follow me. So yeah, I'm in total agreement with you.
What I think we' re going to get with Trek XI is piffle that appears to be deep, a smoke-and-mirrors soufle. I base this conjecture (and acknowledge that that it is only conjecture) on pretty much everything the creative team has done in the past.
What I think we' re going to get with Trek XI is piffle that appears to be deep, a smoke-and-mirrors soufle. I base this conjecture (and acknowledge that that it is only conjecture) on pretty much everything the creative team has done in the past.
A succinct description of ST:TMP.
Kinnison said:
I really see a fundamental disconnet between (to give two popular examples) TMP and TWoK. TMP is a more cerebral type of film, whereas Wrath of Khan is clear a "J6P" type of movie. They're both Trek, and you can trace their respective lineages to one or more TOS episodes. My feeling, however, is that the last, well, nine Trek movies have been "J6P"-type movies, and it's getting a bit old! I'd like something to think about, please?
I agree with this completely. Sure, I like action-adventure films. But Star Trek is more than that - yet, seeing the nine films after TMP you'd never guess it.
Just take the TNG films as one I can grind an axe with. In every single one of these films they turn Picard into an obligatory action hero who gets a fight-out with the villain. This is silly; this a tad adolescent, and, heck, it's not true to the character from the series. What happened to the man who concluded an episode with a speech rather than fisticuffs? What happened to the cerebral, educated, literate character who passionately argued for the rights of Data as a sentient being? Oh, look, he's a gleeful teenager screwing around with his dune buggy.
The TNG movies weren't just guilty of being bad action-adventure; they dumbed down the content of the series for the big screen. Some of the best episodes of TNG - and TOS - were low-key episodes decidedly lacking in action-adventure. There have been great films, including great sci-fi films, made on similar themes. But Star Trek's films have been stuck in the formula for ignoring these in favour of epic showdowns.
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