Human Potential

[Metryq]

In the opening scenes of "Return to Tomorrow" it is suggested that humanity may be descended from Sargon's race. Sargon and company displayed a few "god-like" powers not unlike those seen in the transformed Mitchell in "Where No Man Has Gone Before."

Assuming the descendant angle, was Mitchell's transformation somehow "catalyzed" by that relationship? Absolute power corrupting absolutely is a theme in both stories. Is humanity destined to fail, ultimately, or could humanity succeed where Sargon's people did not?

Thoughts?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I seem to recall Q in TNG vaguely hinting that humanity would eventually evolve to their level (ignoring for a moment Voyager's salamander destiny). TOS seemed a lot happier to show it (human telepaths and espers in the 23rd century) than any other Trek series.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I seem to recall Q in TNG vaguely hinting that humanity would eventually evolve to their level (ignoring for a moment Voyager's salamander destiny). TOS seemed a lot happier to show it (human telepaths and espers in the 23rd century) than any other Trek series.

Yep. From Hide and Q:

Q: Well if you'll stop interrupting me. This is hardly a time to be teaching you the true nature of the universe. However, at Farpoint we saw you as savages only. We discovered instead that you are unusual creatures in your own limited ways. Ways which in time will not be so limited.
RIKER: We're growing. Something about us compels us to learn, explore.
Q: Yes, the human compulsion. And unfortunately for us, it is a power which will grow stronger century after century, aeon after aeon.
RIKER: Aeons. Have you any idea how far we'll advance?
Q: Perhaps in a future that you cannot yet conceive, even beyond us. So you see, we must know more about this human condition. That's why we've selected you, Riker, to become part of the Q, so that you can bring to us this human need and hunger, that we may understand it.

 

[Melakon]

In the opening scenes of "Return to Tomorrow" it is suggested that humanity may be descended from Sargon's race. . .Assuming the descendant angle, was Mitchell's transformation somehow "catalyzed" by that relationship? . . .Is humanity destined to fail, ultimately, or could humanity succeed where Sargon's people did not?

Maybe not for Earth, but possibly for Vulcan, if you listen to how Dr. Mulhall objects to Sargon's suggestion, and what follows.

SARGON: Because it is possible you are our descendants, Captain Kirk. Six thousand centuries ago, our vessels were colonising this galaxy, just as your own starships have now begun to explore that vastness. As you now leave your own seed on distant planets, so we left our seed behind us. Perhaps your own legends of an Adam and an Eve were two of our travellers.
MULHALL: Our beliefs and our studies indicate that life on our planet, Earth, evolved independently.
SPOCK: That would tend, however, to explain certain elements of Vulcan prehistory.
SARGON: In either case, I do not know. It was so long ago, and the records of our travels were lost in the cataclysm which we loosened upon ourselves.

 

[Metryq]

Maybe not for Earth, but possibly for Vulcan, if you listen to how Dr. Mulhall objects to Sargon's suggestion, and what follows.

Thanks for the script excerpt, but that's why I said "may be descended." Sargon admitted that he didn't know, and Mulhall may be right. Then again, she may be wrong. Anthropologists and archaeologists were quite certain about "Clovis first" for almost a century. Now they're not so sure. And that was a mere 13,000 years or so ago.

TOS was "episodic" in the '60s sense of the word—inter-episode continuity then and now is very different. Thus any possible connection between WNMHGB and RTT is also highly speculative.

I was just thinking out loud.

Of course, only a well-grounded individual will realize his true "potential." <rimshot>

 

[BillJ]

I seem to recall Q in TNG vaguely hinting that humanity would eventually evolve to their level (ignoring for a moment Voyager's salamander destiny). TOS seemed a lot happier to show it (human telepaths and espers in the 23rd century) than any other Trek series.

Yep. From Hide and Q:

Q: Well if you'll stop interrupting me. This is hardly a time to be teaching you the true nature of the universe. However, at Farpoint we saw you as savages only. We discovered instead that you are unusual creatures in your own limited ways. Ways which in time will not be so limited.
RIKER: We're growing. Something about us compels us to learn, explore.
Q: Yes, the human compulsion. And unfortunately for us, it is a power which will grow stronger century after century, aeon after aeon.
RIKER: Aeons. Have you any idea how far we'll advance?
Q: Perhaps in a future that you cannot yet conceive, even beyond us. So you see, we must know more about this human condition. That's why we've selected you, Riker, to become part of the Q, so that you can bring to us this human need and hunger, that we may understand it.

I think Arena and Errand of Mercy both also point to an evolving humanity.

 

[T'Girl]

I think Arena and Errand of Mercy both also point to an evolving humanity.

Arena could be simply a case of advanced technology.

Spock was able to detect the Metrons scanners, plus they had better transporters. What else?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think Arena and Errand of Mercy both also point to an evolving humanity.

Arena could be simply a case of advanced technology.

Spock was able to detect the Metrons scanners, plus they had better transporters. What else?

BillJ may be thinking of this:

METRON: By sparing your helpless enemy who surely would have destroyed you, you demonstrated the advanced trait of mercy, something we hardly expected. We feel there may be hope for your kind. Therefore, you will not be destroyed. It would not be civilised.
KIRK: What happened to the Gorn?
GORN: I sent him back to his ship. If you like, I shall destroy him for you.
KIRK: No. That won't be necessary. We can talk. Maybe reach an agreement.
METRON: Very good, Captain. There is hope for you. Perhaps in several thousand years, your people and mine shall meet to reach an agreement. You are still half savage, but there is hope. We will contact you when we are ready.

And this:

AYELBORNE: To wage war, Captain? To kill millions of innocent people? To destroy life on a planetary scale? Is that what you're defending?
KIRK: Well, no one wants war. But there are proper channels. People have a right to handle their own affairs. Eventually, we would have
AYELBORNE: Oh, eventually you will have peace, but only after millions of people have died. It is true that in the future, you and the Klingons will become fast friends. You will work together.
KOR: Never!
CLAYMARE: Your emotions are most discordant. We do not wish to seem inhospitable, but gentlemen, you must leave.
AYELBORNE: Yes, please leave us. The mere presence of beings like yourselves is intensely painful to us.
KIRK: What do you mean, beings like yourselves?
AYELBORNE: Millions of years ago, Captain, we were humanoid like yourselves, but we have developed beyond the need of physical bodies. That of us which you see is mere appearance for your sake.
KOR: Captain, it's a trick. We can handle them. I have an army.
(Kirk holds him back as Ayelborne and Claymare transform into pulsating lights, too bright to look at. Then they disappear.)
SPOCK: Fascinating. Pure energy. Pure thought. Totally incorporeal. Not life as we know it at all.
KIRK: But what about this planet? The fields, the buildings, this citadel?
SPOCK: Conventionalisations, I should say. Useless to the Organians. Created so that visitors such as ourselves, could have conventional points of reference.
KOR: But is all of this possible?
SPOCK: We have seen it with our own eyes. I should say the Organians are as far above us on the evolutionary scale as we are above the amoeba.

Spock's words imply that the Organians represent a possible future step in human evolution.

 

[BillJ]

...

Winner!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Bomp. Bomp. Bomp-bomp-ba-bomp.

PURE ENERGY.

 

[T'Girl]

BillJ may be thinking of this ...

The Metron spoke of Kirk's people being "half savage," but the Metron's themselves were also apparently willing to kill and destroy, and in a matter they had no personal stake in.

The Organians were presented as obvious advanced beings, but I still feel that in the case of the Metron that they on the surface were simply another normal species in the galaxy, who possesses a few pieces of advanced technological hardware.

Again, their sensor beams were of of a sort that the Enterprise's own equipment could detect them, the Metrons were not supernaturally "sensing" the approach of the two starships, in a fashion similar to how one of the Organians was able to sensed the arrival of the Klingon fleet.

 

[BillJ]

Bomp. Bomp. Bomp-bomp-ba-bomp.

PURE ENERGY.

The Organians were presented as obvious advanced beings, but I still feel that in the case of the Metron that they on the surface were simply another normal species in the galaxy, who possesses a few pieces of advanced technological hardware.

Again, their sensor beams were of of a sort that the Enterprise's own equipment could detect them, the Metrons were not supernaturally "sensing" the approach of the two starships, in a fashion similar to how one of the Organians was able to sensed the arrival of the Klingon fleet.

Spock picked up sensor beams but we simply don't know how those beams were generated. But, evolution is a process. The Metron "boy" was fifteen-hundred years old. The Metrons weren't on the same level as the Organians but they looked to be on the same evolutionary road.

 

[Anwar]

It was carried onto the TNG era too, like the guy we saw in "Transfigurations" who became an energy being.

 

[Push The Button]

Humanity has no future. Take a walk through your local Walmart sometime and see for yourself.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It was carried onto the TNG era too, like the guy we saw in "Transfigurations" who became an energy being.

True. However, I don't recall any suggestion in that episode about what's in store for humanity's future, although maybe I'm not remembering something. It was just about the next step in the evolution of John Doe's species.

It is with great sadness that I must say that Wesley Crusher is a better example about what's in store for humanity. May the gods have mercy on my soul, for mentioning that.

BillJ may be thinking of this ...

The Metron spoke of Kirk's people being "half savage," but the Metron's themselves were also apparently willing to kill and destroy, and in a matter they had no personal stake in.

The Organians were presented as obvious advanced beings, but I still feel that in the case of the Metron that they on the surface were simply another normal species in the galaxy, who possesses a few pieces of advanced technological hardware.

Again, their sensor beams were of of a sort that the Enterprise's own equipment could detect them, the Metrons were not supernaturally "sensing" the approach of the two starships, in a fashion similar to how one of the Organians was able to sensed the arrival of the Klingon fleet.

I assume that you are directing your remarks at BillJ? In any case, all BillJ said was that Arena and Errand of Mercy imply that humanity will continue to evolve, and all I did was provide the references in the episodes that I thought he was referring to.

I also happen to agree with the statement, as he phrased it, though. However, I would concur that, arguably unlike Errand of Mercy, there's nothing in Arena to suggest that humanity will evolve into a race of energy beings with godlike powers. I think that the nature of the Metrons themselves is beside the point, on the question of humanity's future.

I think Arena and Errand of Mercy both also point to an evolving humanity.

 

[GENERAL_DS]

There is a Q episode in TNG that states that humans might be more powerfull than the Q in the future. Although this is probably achieved through technology.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Is humanity destined to fail, ultimately, or could humanity succeed where Sargon's people did not?

Even in-universe with Star Trek's optimistic assumptions, it's hard to see how humanity can evolve to have dramatic new powers. Creatures evolve to survive in a changing environment that is impacting their bodies, but humans have developed technology to regulate the environment itself so our bodies don't have to adapt. This might make us victims of our own success as our bodies become more frail, but I don't think it's the road to new powers.

Also, life on Earth has had 3.5 billion years to figure out what it can and can't do. If there are no Sargons after all that time, it's definitely going to take some sci-fi mojo to get us over the hump. As a lot of people seem to think, sci-fi technology could enable some kind of artificial evolution that alters humanity.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Also, life on Earth has had 3.5 billion years to figure out what it can and can't do.

That's nonsense.

In the first place, evolution is driven largely by the environments that organisms have to adapt to. One of the reasons that life isn't "more advanced" (whatever that means) is that it has not needed to be in order to survive.

In the second place, and on the flip side of the first point, evolution is not driven by the whims of species. At least, it hasn't been up to this point. Figuring out, as you put it, heretofore hasn't entered the picture.

In the third place, by whose schedule is 3.5 billion years long enough to figure out anything of cosmic proportions?

Fourthly, and I'm sure not lastly, humanity is the most capable species so far, in terms of our potential to affect evolution with technology, and we've only just arisen, relatively speaking. We haven't even begun to reach our limits.

If there are no Sargons after all that time, it's definitely

No. At least for all the reasons I gave above, and whatever comes next, no.

going to take some sci-fi mojo to get us over the hump. As a lot of people seem to think, sci-fi technology could enable some kind of artificial evolution that alters humanity.

Like I said, no. Real technology might affect human evolution, but sci-fi technology, by virtue of the definition of being fictitious, can't ever. And, it's probably going to take a lot longer than till the end of the 21st century. Sorry!

 

[SchwEnt]

The Human Adventure is Just Beginning.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Like I said, no. Real technology might affect human evolution, but sci-fi technology, by virtue of the definition of being fictitious, can't ever. And, it's probably going to take a lot longer than till the end of the 21st century. Sorry!

What is fiction today might be real in the future; let's not get bogged down in semantics. Likewise, when I say that life "figures out" a path of evolution, that's a figure of speech. You don't have to jump down my throat for not formulating every thought in your preferred terms.

Anyway, I was using the term "sci-fi mojo" because I personally don't think it will ever happen. I was just acknowledging that some people do.