How would you rewrite Chakotay?

[chris of nine]

I’ve read that people find Beltran to be a really nice guy.

But the heart of joketelling and humor is not nice.

It is the clever statement of a cruel truth.

Nice guys aren’t great joke tellers.

 

[gakelly]

Make him unscrupulous. He should intimidate the rest of the crew. Steal stuff on away missions, do what he needs to get the job done.

 

[JoeZhang]

I would have made him a terrible liar - all that stuff about his origins is what he's picked up from the Federation Wikipedia.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

I don't think so. Whenever he crossed the line - and it was really in "Manuevers" and "Scorpions" - she stomped on him hard.

Oh really? Come one, Chakotay benefitted of preferential treatment. For what he has done during Scorpion, he only got a slap on his wrist through a short stay in his quarters, which were more than comfortable - , doing and eating/drinking what he wanted, instead of heading to the brig where all any other officers would have been sent after to have committed a serious fault (bending the rules, committing a crime and/or disobeying a direct order from the Captain) AND in Manuevers where he has stolen a shuttle to go after Seska because of a hurt ego, he was put on report, which meant nothing as seeing as except on Voyager where he had been reinstalled as a Starfllet senior officer, Starfleet never recognized him as one of their own, even after 6 years on board so, being on report or not wouldn't change much for him.
=> I reming you that the only officer on whose Janeway stomped hard, was Tom Paris, who got 30 days in jail (and a demotion to the rank of Enseign ....even if he was reinstalled to Lieutenant afterward) after having disobeyed to her order. Not it wasn't deserved but he paid more than anyone for his action. Hey, even the former Equinox crew had no stay in the brig after the mess (all the killings & destruction) they have made!
.

 

[Qapla!]

Inspired by the 'How do you feel about Chakotay?'

I feel like the actor himself was weak and he had the personality of a floating plank of driftwood. It seemed like he was not all that interested in playing the character.

That being said, he could have been a more challenging voice against Janeway. As a Maquis leader he shouldn’t have assimilated so easily into the Starfleet chain of command. There was one episode where he disobeyed to go after Seska but the resulting consequences seemed unimportant. He never seemed to put up much of a fight.

Seven of Nine exerted more independence. Why didn’t Chakotay? He seemed to roll over once he realized he was no longer in command.

As for the episodes that portray his Native American beliefs, yes I found them a bit cheesy but I’m not of the opinion that they should have portrayed according to a real tribe’s because that would have possibly been offensive.

Maybe they shouldn’t have focused so much on them at all since the aliens that guided his people are super white in “Tatoo” and I thought that was weird.

 

[Pink Thing]

It's well documented that the 'expert' they hired for Native American culture gave them lots of really inaccurate information. But basically they portray Native American culture as being all about obscure spiritual rituals. Or as an article I found online puts it, 'Although Star Trek: Voyager hence makes an explicit effort to draw a more nuanced picture of Native American spirituality, the program is still unwilling to complicate the binary construction of the spiritual versus the rational.'

So to answer your question, he's *not* expressing real Native culture, and he's not expressing his fake native culture in a way that represents how actual Native Americans apply their spiritual roots to modern living.

Robert also did his own extensive reasearch himslef he said. so he didn't just rely on others for him or what they gave him. plus what makes his portayal diff from pocahonats or any toher indegnous character protraylas in media?

 

[Pink Thing]

Plus Chakotay did say diff Native tribes expressed their spirituality in many diff ways some more adpated tomodern technology and other more "to their roots" how life was pre colonization of america.

 

[Pink Thing]

Well, this is what was often reproached to Robert Beltran's acting (and not necessarily the anti-Chakotay): sometimes, he overplayed (especially in scenes where Chakotay's character was supposed to be frustrated and/or angry -> ex: during the face-to-face between Janeway & Chakotay in Sickbay after Janeway woke up from her coma in "Scorpion - part 2" and she announced to her XO her intention to work with Borgs), and some others, his delivery was flat (I remember among others, a scene in s3 in which he told to Janeway his will to retreave his baby from the Kazon's vessel. Of course, she offered him the help of Voyage/her crew the crew to do it and his reaction was "euh, thank you" or something like that. It was not so much Chakotay's words spoken which were shocking but the way Beltran played this scene, which reflected no emotion (neither in physical expression or intonation. Result: this moving scene fell flat ! (while Ryan, Russ were able to express so much with the minimum of words and gestures).

Chakotay has an introverted eprsonality or one but he does have a snece of humor. just becasue hes not over eggagertaing doesnt mean the delivery wanst there.

 

[Guy Gardener]

According to the bible, Chakotay's forebearers left for the DMZ in the 22nd century (Jonathan Archer's Earth.), to preserve their cultural identity from homogenization .

Um...

Either a lot of native tribes unified and homogenized till their numbers were strong enough to create a genetically viable colony... Or the Rubber Tree people are so intolerably racist that they told all the other native tribes to suck it.

How inbred is Chuckles?

 

[STEPhon IT]

By episode 2 the writers abandoned the concept and were reaching to be TNG; once they figured Paris would be their Will Riker it was over for Chakotay. His role would be reduced as seasons went by, but I agree with some members - Chakotay needed to have episodes where he put the incomparable Captain Kathryn Janeway in her place. This would show this VOY first officer had some teeth in his bark. It's what I loved about Kira on DS9; she had all the respect for Sisko but there were times she needed stand up to him and blatantly tell him he's off base. A first officer is no good to the Captain if they don't face them when the Captain is out of line or acting irrational.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Robert also did his own extensive reasearch himslef he said. so he didn't just rely on others for him or what they gave him. plus what makes his portayal diff from pocahonats or any toher indegnous character protraylas in media?

Above all, I don't understand why Robert Beltran thought that his Mexican American origins/roots gave him the legitimacy to interpret an “Indian” role but well..... It was only after many critics to be made known that that the producers eventually decided to specify Chakotay’s tribal affiliation as “south of border”, i.e. Mayan, Aztec or Inca.

IF Robert Beltran really did his own extensive research to better characterize Chakotay as he said, he only did the work from s1 to s3 as seeing as by his own admission, he totally gave up doing any afforts after having noticed his character was relegate in the background. And in light of what we have seen/heard during these 3 seasons, his so-called research have hardly been used, remaining full of (cultural) stereotypes with a few "A cuchi Moya" pronounced here and there,

Second, in "Basics", his character, Chakotay, was supposed to teach to officers how to start a fire and seeing that they could not do it, he decided to take matters in hand do it himself. Problem, Beltran
was unable to do so and the fire eventually had to be lit with matches but even there, the fire did not take (which earned the actor a humiliating moment from people around)....but fortunately, one of actors,
was boyscout in his youth, managed to start the fire.
=> maybe it is just a detail but for me, it shows the degree of unpreparedness from Beltran before shooting a scene that he knew being in the script.

 

[chris of nine]

So using hair to start the fire is a boy scout thing?

Hair-smoked marshmallows make me salivate.

Yuck, yesterday I was moving a sauté pan off the burner, and it caught some of my arm hair. Delicious.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

So using hair to start the fire is a boy scout thing?

Hair-smoked marshmallows make me salivate.

Yuck, yesterday I was moving a sauté pan off the burner, and it caught some of my arm hair. Delicious.

Hair? No, I rather thought using some paper (or very dry plants), 2 flint stones and of course,
firewood.
-> It took me half a day (and sore hands) to learn how to start a fire. And I was someone rather awkward when I was scouting.

 

[suarezguy]

Oh really? Come one, Chakotay benefitted of preferential treatment. For what he has done during Scorpion, he only got a slap on his wrist through a short stay in his quarters, which were more than comfortable - , doing and eating/drinking what he wanted, instead of heading to the brig where all any other officers would have been sent after to have committed a serious fault (bending the rules, committing a crime and/or disobeying a direct order from the Captain)

I don't see how his action was insubordinate and definitely deserving of punishment, he changed policy/tactics after the Borg were significantly changing what had been agreed to. If Janeway had been in command all the time I imagine she would have at least been very conflicted, if not indignant, about going at least 5 days in the wrong direction, deep into Borg space, she would have had her own trust in the Borg pretty eroded even if it survived and she did agree to do so.

 

[Mareika]

I don't see how his action was insubordinate and definitely deserving of punishment, he changed policy/tactics after the Borg were significantly changing what had been agreed to. If Janeway had been in command all the time I imagine she would have at least been very conflicted, if not indignant, about going at least 5 days in the wrong direction, deep into Borg space, she would have had her own trust in the Borg pretty eroded even if it survived and she did agree to do so.

Thank you so much for this. Everytime I watch this episode I`m thinking exact the same.

 

[flandry84]

I would have had Chakotay off the ship more often,scouting ahead in the Delta flyer.
Of course the Neelix character was supposed to be a guide and methinks that he could have been written as a sort of rough and tumble Davy Crockett type that would complement a scouting party Chakotay.
Unhappily the writers chose to do what they did with both of those characters so...

 

[UnknownSample]

You can't just punish Chakotay strictly as if he were just anybody. The Voyager situation is a compromise. If Janeway were free to do everything by the book, all the Maquis would have been prisoners, not part of the crew.
-------------------
I liked Beltran's dry, "flat" delivery, because it reminds me of speech patterns of American Indians that I've heard. Even when joking, the flat, even delivery is there, making for some great deadpan humor. I don't mean humor of Chakotay's, but Amer-Indians...
---------------------------
I just wish they hadn't put him on the sidelines.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

I don't see how his action was insubordinate and definitely deserving of punishment, he changed policy/tactics after the Borg were significantly changing what had been agreed to. If Janeway had been in command all the time I imagine she would have at least been very conflicted, if not indignant, about going at least 5 days in the wrong direction, deep into Borg space, she would have had her own trust in the Borg pretty eroded even if it survived and she did agree to do so.

If I remember well, just before Janeway undergoing her operation, she clearly tell (=ordered) her XO to make the (unexpected) alliance she has concluded with Borg work, what meant making some concessions if required, because as well the crew as Borg on board, had everything to gain.
But Chakotay, once in control of Voyager, despite his promise to honour the original agreement, took the decision to end this alliance here and now,, arguing that now he was in command, he had to do what he thinks was best for the crew
-> for the crew ...or for himself, he who was so vocal in his opposition to make any alliance with Borg. I remind that his decision to end any alliance spent with Borg happened before the discovery it was them who have started hostilities with Species 8472. Seven was right when she declared that "Every individual entitled to their own small opinion. You lack harmony, cohesion, greatness. It will be your undoing.

And don't get me wrong, Chakotay perfectly knew that in acting like this, he countered Janeway's orders when he visited her while she was still in a comatose state.

[Sickbay]
(Chakotay briefs his comatose Captain.)
CHAKOTAY: Well, I've made my decision. If it were only a matter of going against the orders of my superior officer. You're more than just my Captain. You're my friend. I hope you'll understand.
=> I disobeyed your orders, Captain, but I hope that as your friend, you'll understand my decision.

Or at the end,

[Da Vinci's Workshop - night]
(Janeway is at a desk, writing with quill on parchment.)
CHAKOTAY: Am I interrupting?
JANEWAY: Not at all. Just finishing up my log.
CHAKOTAY: The old-fashioned way.
JANEWAY: I wanted to get as far away from bioimplants and fluidic space. And this feels more human somehow.
CHAKOTAY: I hate to spoil the mood, but you might want to look at this Engineering report. It'll take at least two weeks to remove the Borg technology from our systems. B'Elanna did note that the power couplings on deck eight work better with the Borg improvements.
JANEWAY: Leave them. How is our passenger?
CHAKOTAY: The Doctor says she's stabilising. Her human cells are starting to regenerate.
JANEWAY: I wonder what's left under all that Borg technology. If she can ever become human again.
CHAKOTAY: You plan to keep her on board.
JANEWAY: We pulled the plug. We're responsible for what happens to her now.
CHAKOTAY: She was assimilated at a very young age. The Collective's all she knows. She might not want to stay.
JANEWAY: I think she might. We have something the Borg could never offer. Friendship.
CHAKOTAY: I want you to know that disobeying your orders was one of the most difficult things I've ever had to do.
JANEWAY: I understand. And I respect the decision you made, even though I disagree with it. What's important is that in the end we got through this, together. I don't ever want that to change.
CHAKOTAY: Agreed.
JANEWAY: Good. Well, I think it's time we get back to our bridge.
CHAKOTAY: No argument there.
(We are given a last lingering look at Seven on a biobed, one small implant blinking.)

And once recovered from her operation, Janeway clearly asked Chakotay to explain his actions

[Sickbay]
(Janeway is up and back in uniform.)
CHAKOTAY: Captain?
JANEWAY: The Doctor brought me up to speed, but he couldn't tell me what I really wanted to know. Why?
CHAKOTAY: The Collective ordered me to reverse course, travel forty light years back the way we came. What would you have done?
JANEWAY: I probably would've reversed course. Maintained the alliance as long as possible.
CHAKOTAY: In my mind, the alliance was already over.
JANEWAY: You never trusted me. You never believed this would work. You were just waiting for an opportunity to circumvent my orders.
CHAKOTAY: Trust had nothing to with it. I made a tactical decision.
JANEWAY: And so did I.
CHAKOTAY: They have taking advantage of us from day one.
JANEWAY: We made concessions, so did they.
CHAKOTAY: They lied. The Borg started the war with Species 8472. We've only got one Borg left to worry about. We should try to disable her and get back to the Delta Quadrant. We might be able to duplicate the deflector protocols they used to open a singularity.
JANEWAY: No. I won't be caught tinkering with the deflector when those aliens attack. There's no other way out of this, Chakotay. It's too late for opinions, it's too late for discussion. It's time to make the call, and I'm making it. We fight the aliens in full cooperation with the Borg.
CHAKOTAY: I was linked to a Collective once, remember? I had a neurotransceiver embedded in my spine. I know who we're dealing with. We've got to get rid of that last Borg and take our chances alone.
JANEWAY: It won't work. This isn't working either. There are two wars going on. The one out there, and the one in here, and we're losing both of them.
CHAKOTAY: It will be your undoing.
JANEWAY: What?
CHAKOTAY: Our conflicted nature. Our individuality. Seven of Nine said that we lack the cohesion of a Collective mind. That one day it would divide us and destroy us. And here we are, proving her point.
JANEWAY: I'll tell you when we lost control of this situation, when we made our mistake. It was the moment we turned away from each other. We don't have to stop being individuals to get through this, we just have to stop fighting each other.

So, yes, while Chakotay was in command, knowingly disobeyed Janeway's order, only driven by his irrational hatred of Borg*, and for that, he would have deserved to be punished

* (can you imagine that without being threatening towards him or the crew, he has
thrown 2 Borgs in space and wanted to disable Seven, by failing to eject her too ...and he said to have become a man of peace who is against death sentence!) having been , regardless they are adults or kids I bet that if there had been an official Cardassian representative on board (not Seska!), he would have treated him/her with disdain
most of the time.

 

[suarezguy]

If I remember well, just before Janeway undergoing her operation, she clearly tell (=ordered) her XO to make the (unexpected) alliance she has concluded with Borg work, what meant making some concessions if required, because as well the crew as Borg on board, had everything to gain.
But Chakotay, once in control of Voyager, despite his promise to honour the original agreement, took the decision to end this alliance here and now

He probably was going against both the letter and spirit of her order ("You have to make this work," which could be considered not a direct order, he referred to it as an order but it could also be considered an intention) and yet, again, the Borg were the first to try to change or violate the original agreement. Janeway did, reasonably, feel that he hadn't been willing to make enough concessions but the concession demanded by the Borg was a real big one so Chakotay could also reasonably feel that while he didn't succeed in making the alliance work it failed because the Borg changed the circumstances more than because he deliberately was going against it.

And the Borg revealed themselves to indeed be very untrustworthy and unreliable so it makes sense that while still disagreeing and disappointed Janeway wouldn't be so adamant as to be punitive.

[Sickbay]
(Janeway is up and back in uniform.)
CHAKOTAY: Captain?
JANEWAY: The Doctor brought me up to speed, but he couldn't tell me what I really wanted to know. Why?
CHAKOTAY: The Collective ordered me to reverse course, travel forty light years back the way we came. What would you have done?
JANEWAY: I probably would've reversed course. Maintained the alliance as long as possible.
CHAKOTAY: In my mind, the alliance was already over.
JANEWAY: You never trusted me. You never believed this would work. You were just waiting for an opportunity to circumvent my orders.
CHAKOTAY: Trust had nothing to with it. I made a tactical decision.
JANEWAY: And so did I.
CHAKOTAY: They have taking advantage of us from day one.
JANEWAY: We made concessions, so did they.
CHAKOTAY: They lied. The Borg started the war with Species 8472. We've only got one Borg left to worry about. We should try to disable her and get back to the Delta Quadrant. We might be able to duplicate the deflector protocols they used to open a singularity.
JANEWAY: No. I won't be caught tinkering with the deflector when those aliens attack. There's no other way out of this, Chakotay. It's too late for opinions, it's too late for discussion. It's time to make the call, and I'm making it. We fight the aliens in full cooperation with the Borg.
CHAKOTAY: I was linked to a Collective once, remember? I had a neurotransceiver embedded in my spine. I know who we're dealing with. We've got to get rid of that last Borg and take our chances alone.
JANEWAY: It won't work. This isn't working either. There are two wars going on. The one out there, and the one in here, and we're losing both of them.
CHAKOTAY: It will be your undoing.
JANEWAY: What?
CHAKOTAY: Our conflicted nature. Our individuality. Seven of Nine said that we lack the cohesion of a Collective mind. That one day it would divide us and destroy us. And here we are, proving her point.
JANEWAY: I'll tell you when we lost control of this situation, when we made our mistake. It was the moment we turned away from each other. We don't have to stop being individuals to get through this, we just have to stop fighting each other.

I found those attitudes to be rather disturbing, that she thinks that because he disagreed with her initially his subsequent actions are tainted and that him disagreeing about what should be done means they're apart and at war with each other. It was an interesting resolution, though, to try to combine their ideas into a set of actions, use the cooperation she wanted and also be ready for if there was a betrayal.