How would you change the show?

[Anwar]

One, it's her first command, by her own admission.

Which is why it would've been better if she'd been the 3rd in command or so after the original command staff get killed in the first episodes. That way the audience would cut her more slack.

Two, the other characters did not deal with this which, again to reiterate, is the whole point of this show. To do something different, not the same old, same old. If you are constantly looking at WWKD or WWPD then you will be disappointed, every time.

Instead, take the unique circumstances of the situation, you know that thing that was set up in the first episode, and work with it as a strength, rather than treat it as a stone around your neck

"Wow, what a loser. Kirk would have gotten them home in 2 episodes and gotten the Maquis to do whatever he wanted in 1!"

Kirk never faces them, but consider:
Picard sends a deep cover operative to infiltrate the Maquis... she promptly turns traitor and joins them for real.
Sisko gets completely fooled by a Maquis operative multiple times. He finally stops him... by poisoning a planet.
Janeway goes up against 30 Maquis... and they're eating out of her hand in a year.

How much you willing to bet the complaint would just become "Beh, if the DS9 writers did this they've conflict all the way until the very end. These writers are cowards."?

I could see that at first, but I would eventually want to move to both sides adopting some kind of uniform practice that's neither Starfleet nor Maquis. Because, realistically, a crew of 150 people stuck on a 344-meter tin can for what they believed to be the next seventy years of their lives, would stop being Starfleet and stop being Maquis. Their respective "cultures" would realistically mix into something new.

Which is why the show should've had them get back to the Federation by Season 3 or so and then contrive a reason for them to deliberately go back out there so they can't interfere with DS9's storyline. So we don't ever have to worry about that "75 years to home" plot that would never happen.

I do agree that Star Trek: Voyager needed something more than just "trying to get home." And in fact, complications over how to handle whatever plot developments occur could be an incitement for disagreements between different factions in the ship's parliament.

I'm talking a proper series plot, something to truly take over the way the Wormhole technology became the real plot of Farscape during S2 and the Dominion from S3 onwards in DS9. Something to get the crews to get over their internal differences because they're busy stopping a Galactic Crisis that threatens everything.

I don't agree with the idea that Janeway being answerable to a democratically-elected ship's parliament or having to compromise with Maquis undermines her metatextual authority as a lead character. I think a captain who is capable of bringing competing factions together and uniting them behind her leadership, democratically, is a stronger leader than previous captains.

Like, this arc wouldn't work unless you can sell the idea that Janeway can take these people who used to hate the Federation, and inspire them to follow her to the Gates of Hell out of sheer loyalty.

That's something Picard, Kirk, and Sisko never accomplished.

Sisko did, actually. Rather easily.

So I still want Janeway to be a strong leader. I just want her to be a strong leader who faced circumstances the prior captains never had to, because, well, the old formula was getting stale and felt dishonest to the circumstances the characters were in.

And here's another problem: Picard and Kirk DID have to face her circumstances, and they got home much faster.

Very easily, because the canonical Chakotay was a badly-written character with inconsistent motivations and beliefs so that the writers didn't have to do the hard work of realistically exploring how a ship full of institutionalist military officers and anti-institutionalist revolutionaries would get along.

It's more that Beltran was a terrible actor who kept screwing up everything they tried to give him so the writers didn't want to bother giving him anything. Same reason Picardo got more as the Doctor, he was actually giving a darn about his job. That and they made him too much of a principled idealist that he wasn't very different from Janeway in the first place.

I was thinking about Janeway talking to Ransom about how basically you stick by your morals no matter what and I think that would have hit better if Janeway has been in a position where she'd done that and saved the day but it got a bunch of people killed.
I wonder how the dolphin drive would have gone down better with viewers if Ransom had been killing humanoids and shoving corpses into the engine.

I'd have revealed that those things were the infant form of the 8472 aliens and it was Ransom's actions in killing them that drew the 8472 aliens to our reality in the first place and everything they've done is the direct result of Equinox.

 

[fireproof78]

Which is why it would've been better if she'd been the 3rd in command or so after the original command staff get killed in the first episodes. That way the audience would cut her more slack.

Ok, I'd welcome that. Could have been an interesting twist.

"Wow, what a loser. Kirk would have gotten them home in 2 episodes and gotten the Maquis to do whatever he wanted in 1!"

I don't know what you're on about. No one here is saying that.

 

[Soong-type Android]

What to change?

Get rid of the Maquis, Jar Jar Neelix, Kes, offensive stereotype Chakotay and create actually interesting characters for a start.

Maybe have the captain and first officer killed and most of the senior staff when they get thrown into the Delta Quadrant and the lone surviving bridge officer forced into the role of acting captain. Have the ship have a beaten up appearance and aesthetic in contrast to the pristine, luxury cruise liner in space that was the Enterprise D. Lower ranking officers are forced into leadership roles through necessity.

It should still tell traditional Star Trek stories rather than being a constant grim "Year of Hell" scenario but also shouldn't just be a pale imitation of TNG.

 

[Sci]

Which is why the show should've had them get back to the Federation by Season 3 or so and then contrive a reason for them to deliberately go back out there so they can't interfere with DS9's storyline. So we don't ever have to worry about that "75 years to home" plot that would never happen.

So, essentially, what I'm arguing is that Star Trek: Voyager should have actually tried to live up to its premise, and you're arguing that Star Trek: Voyager should have completely jettisoned its premise.

I think that either option would have worked better than what we actually got: A show whose writers wanted to write a completely different kind of show than its premise implied, but who didn't have the creative courage to re-tool the show to fit their new creative vision.

 

[Akiraprise]

but who didn't have the creative courage to re-tool the show to fit their new creative vision.

I'm guessing the network suits at the time had more to do with retooling the show to be more TNG like than the writers. TNG was the golden child and emulating it in their eyes was likely to ensure a profitable hit show. If the TNG cast had not been promoted to feature film status I bet we'd have gotten S8+ for TNG and no VOY. At least not until TNG finally concluded its run. If VOY had premiered even a few years later its serialization would have been more welcome.

 

[Oddish]

So, essentially, what I'm arguing is that Star Trek: Voyager should have actually tried to live up to its premise, and you're arguing that Star Trek: Voyager should have completely jettisoned its premise.

I'm guessing the network suits at the time had more to do with retooling the show to be more TNG like than the writers. TNG was the golden child and emulating it in their eyes was likely to ensure a profitable hit show.

And therein lies the irony. Voyager's powers that be made a number of decisions that made sense in their eyes in terms of keeping the show running: de-Maquis-ing the Maquis was one. Ignoring Kate Mulgrew's suggestion that a gay or lesbian crew member be introduced was another. Dancing on the Big Red Reset Button was a biggie. All of these things might have detracted from the show's long run reputation... but they might have been needed to keep it going in the there and then. We don't know what would have happened with Voyager in the 90's had it gotten more daring, more serialized, more DS9-ish. It would probably have a better reputation today, though.

 

[Anwar]

So, essentially, what I'm arguing is that Star Trek: Voyager should have actually tried to live up to its premise, and you're arguing that Star Trek: Voyager should have completely jettisoned its premise.

The initial premise doesn't lend itself to a 7 year series, DS9 itself jettisoned its original premise by the end of S3 and started a new plot that drove it all the way to the end. VOY should've done the same.

Farscape, it stopped being about Crichton's attempts to get back to Earth in S2 and became more about the Scarran/Peacekeeper War and how Crichton had to keep the secrets of wormhole technology from falling into anyones hands. Then in S4 they had him get home and willingly leave because the Wormhole thing was more important.

Voyager should've been about them discovering something happening in the Delta Quadrant that threatened the Galaxy (or Universe) and have them get home and willingly return to stop this crisis as part of some Delta Taskforce or something.

I'm guessing the network suits at the time had more to do with retooling the show to be more TNG like than the writers. TNG was the golden child and emulating it in their eyes was likely to ensure a profitable hit show. If the TNG cast had not been promoted to feature film status I bet we'd have gotten S8+ for TNG and no VOY. At least not until TNG finally concluded its run. If VOY had premiered even a few years later its serialization would have been more welcome.

The VOY Production number on the script of Caretaker had it as "8x01", as in it was written as "TNG Season 8". So yeah you're right. In fact I think some of the scripts were just TNG ones rewritten to fit VOY better.

 

[fireproof78]

The initial premise doesn't lend itself to a 7 year series, DS9 itself jettisoned its original premise by the end of S3 and started a new plot that drove it all the way to the end. VOY should've done the same.

Yes, it should have. But, early one they go have worked within the initial premise rather than copy TNG.

 

[Sci]

The initial premise doesn't lend itself to a 7 year series, DS9 itself jettisoned its original premise by the end of S3 and started a new plot that drove it all the way to the end. VOY should've done the same.

I don't think DS9 jettisoned its original premise; it complicated its original premise. I think VOY could have found a way to complicate its premise without jettisoning it. But I also think jettisoning its premise would have been preferable to writing a show whose style was inconsistent with its premise.

 

[Anwar]

I don't think DS9 jettisoned its original premise; it complicated its original premise. I think VOY could have found a way to complicate its premise without jettisoning it. But I also think jettisoning its premise would have been preferable to writing a show whose style was inconsistent with its premise.

I think DS9 very much did jettison things until it was convenient to bring them back. It was originally about Bajor and Sisko's role as the Emissary and then the Dominion plot took over from S3 onwards, with Sisko's role as the Emissary with Bajor taking a backseat until the last season brought it back.

I mean, if the Dominion were actually under the control of the Pah-Wraiths all along then I could say it was the evolution of the premise, but they weren't.

As soon as VOY made allies and started playing a bigger role in the Delta Quadrant, it would have stopped being a "Lost Ship" premise. The initial premise simply is inherently unsustainable unless you want the crew to stay alone and without allies for 7 years, and that's just ridiculous.

 

[valkyrie013]

Voyager should've been about them discovering something happening in the Delta Quadrant that threatened the Galaxy (or Universe) and have them get home and willingly return to stop this crisis as part of some Delta Taskforce or something.

Another galaxy wide emergency? naa, not everything has to "end the world"

But the original premise for Voyager was perfect for 7 years worth. Problem was, the smashing of the giant red reset button at the end of most episodes, and smashed it with a nuclear hammer after "Year of Hell".

Even if they found freinds, it would still be a "Lost Ship" premise, which technically, they weren't lost, just far far away from home, which they would really NEED to have freinds for food, supplies, maintence, etc. They could probably go maybe a year without some type of maintence or minor refit of parts that have worn out, no ship is that self sustaining.

The conept was glorious, the handling was inept.

 

[fireproof78]

The conept was glorious, the handling was inept.

Yup. The premise was entirely workable and could have given a new flavor of Trek. Instead it's TNG 2.0.

 

[Farscape One]

The conept was glorious, the handling was inept.

Agreed.

I think it was a mistake for VOYAGER to launch UPN. It strangleheld the show too much. It happened to ENTERPRISE, too.

I understand why Paramount did it: STAR TREK was by far their best tv property. What better way to launch your network than with such an established entity? Unfortunately, they were never given the free reign DS9 had, much to VGR's detriment.

I still love the show. But it could have been even better.

 

[valkyrie013]

In the show, everbody was backing going home, treating it like a 5 year mission, everyone happy and being a family. That was the sunshine and lolipop version that could have happened. You'd acctually have people leaving, possibly coming all over the place. Delta quadrant people using the ship like a Bus to get to the next system, or outside of an area controled by bad people. People going down on a planet, finding love, happiness etc. and staying behind. Surprised there wasn't a mutiny or 3 during the time.

Now that I'm thinking of it, Discovery could have used the concept of "Lost Ship" during its 3rd season, it kind of did to a point, but could have been more encountering bad guys, having the ship broken, looking for friendly ports to repair, refresh, etc.

 

[Anwar]

Another galaxy wide emergency? naa, not everything has to "end the world"

It's better than "Gilligan's Island in Space".

The conept was glorious, the handling was inept.

Even NuBSG, VOY's big "This is what the show should've been!" rival, ended up falling apart 3 seasons in because of how unsustainable its premise was.

Enterprise did VOY's story in Season 3 with their mission into the Xindi space to find and destroy their weapons. By the end of that season they'd used up its potential. It's just not enough, especially seeing how TOS and TNG both already did VOY's premise and resolved it much faster.

 

[Oddish]

If they saw fit to make these changes, fine... but why didn't they at least provide explanations. As opposed to "oh, yeah, we can use our replicators now. And we have endless torpedoes, too. And you're expected to just nod and smile and accept it because you're dumb."

 

[valkyrie013]

@Anwar

Lets take the concept, there thrown 75 years away, loose some of there crew, and are somewhat forced to take the maquis crew with them. So first episode, carried out realitivlly the same. 2nd episode, they set course for home, and then take stock of what they have, what they need, and what they need eventually ( Fuel, etc.) and then combing there database for all information on the quadrant, and anyway to supe up there drives to go faster.

The show can still do alot of what was shown, individual episodes of meeting new people, going through other terrirtories, making freinds and enemy's. but more of a serialized form, maybe akin to SNW where you have individual episodes, but there is no big reset button, and things carry forward, crew doesn't get over things quickly, PTSD, etc. sets in. some crew wanting to settle down on a freindly planet, other aliens wanting to join up and help.

Instead of a happy go lucky mentality that they had, people start out happy, but some start to realize they'll never see there family, kids, husband, wife etc. again, and start to lose it.

Mini season arcs of low fuel, damage to the engines etc. I agree Enterprise did this to a degree in the 3rd season. and it worked out quite well, and could last longer, destroy the main ship, do a year of hell that actually takes a year, not 2 episodes.
Lots of stories to tell.

 

[fireproof78]

apart 3 seasons in because of how unsustainable its premise was.

Is someone arguing for 7 seasons of one premise? The whole point that people are trying to make is that Voyager didn't even try. It said "Oh, let's explore this, and this is an anomaly of the week, and this is the time travel of the week, and here is the Prime Directive episode."

It's easy to say "oh, the premise is unsustainable after a season of trying it. They didn't.

@valkyrie013 has some decent ideas. Just be creative.

 

[valkyrie013]

Lets see.. story ideas..
Maybe when seven was "rescued" that they rescued another, but unlike Seven, where she was assimilated, and had 10 years of individuality, that the other was born into the borg (Think babies from Q Who) and has never had individuality, and have them go back to the collective, or do a suicide episode.

Maybe when they discovered quantum slipstream, they got it to work, but only for short jumps, say 15 light years, and it runs as a capacitor, having to charge the system before jumps, which say takes 24 hours? But its still benemite crystals so it eventually fails and can't use it till new ones found or crystalized. maybe burned out the system trying to get away from the borg one time by jumping 100 light years and nearly wreaking the ship.

Lots of ideas

EDIT:
More. honestly i'm just spitballing/ mind dumping by now

Have an episode with them deciding if they can make a cloaking device so that they can sneak through a particularly bad part of space, and the ethics of breaking the treaty, or that the treaty doesn't apply etc. In the end deciding to use it, but discovering that the ship isn't optimal like a purpose built stealth ship like a romulan warbird, and like the defiant was, and can be discovered. so isn't used afterwards, or is used sporadically when story calls for sneaking around.

Maybe an episode like Minefield/deadstop, where voyager could have been dealt a serious mechanical blow, and was limping along and have a so called friendly species help.

Some episodes could be stretched into long arcs, maybe even year long arcs.

Year of Hell that takes a years worth of episodes.
Maybe at the end of Year of Hell, when they destroyed the ship, it STAYS destroyed. Next episode starts with the crew in shuttle craft and lifeboats and a couple of the ships that helped destroy the time ship. Take a few episodes without a ship, then have the crew Ship Jack a ship that one of the enemy's was building that was based on federation tech, but couldn't get to work. So the crew steals it and then gets it to work. Maybe later they discover a hostile AI in the ships computer thats killing off crew members because the aliens allowed the ship to be stollen so the crew can bring it up to full strength, and maybe the doctor has to go in and defeat it or turn it to there side, and it helps.

Maybe the "Void" episode where there traveling for an extended time, maybe between galaxy "arms" that it will take months at warp with no stops. take a few episodes and stay in the void for abit, Maybe something like the episode beginning where people don't have much to do, so there left to there thoughts and have stories of them overcoming some of there traumas. Next episode is a holodeck episode where thy have some fun, comedy episode. Next episode they find a rogue planet or brown dwarf and encounter the night aliens they seen in the actual episode,( maybe bio luminescent like deep sea fish) but don't have the Malon, just have them attack out of them being scared, and then the crew finds a way to communicate though light signals or something, and they are given a more optimal course to shave some time off, and they continue on.

Maybe some follow ups:

Maybe meet tin man from the tng episode, see what they have been up to, and say it couldn't help take them home due to the power needed, but could kick them a few hundred light years closer.

Maybe meet some preservers, them being still active in the delta quadrant setting up teraformed worlds or found in a "pocket" of space time that they closed off from the rest of galaxy, having been chased down by the borg, or maybe whomever built the doomsday machine. Maybe the doomsday machine was built to destroy worlds made by the preservers, destroyed by a species that hasn't been meet yet. Maybe encounter a small fleet of doomsday machines after they find the preservers hideout.

 

[Anwar]

@Anwar

The show can still do alot of what was shown, individual episodes of meeting new people, going through other terrirtories, making freinds and enemy's. but more of a serialized form, maybe akin to SNW where you have individual episodes, but there is no big reset button, and things carry forward, crew doesn't get over things quickly, PTSD, etc. sets in. some crew wanting to settle down on a freindly planet, other aliens wanting to join up and help.

Instead of a happy go lucky mentality that they had, people start out happy, but some start to realize they'll never see there family, kids, husband, wife etc. again, and start to lose it.

Mini season arcs of low fuel, damage to the engines etc. I agree Enterprise did this to a degree in the 3rd season. and it worked out quite well, and could last longer, destroy the main ship, do a year of hell that actually takes a year, not 2 episodes.
Lots of stories to tell.

I can still only see this going on for 2 seasons before it gets repetitive and dull without a bigger external plot.

Is someone arguing for 7 seasons of one premise?

If that's not what detractors mean when they say that VOY's premise wasn't done right, they need to clarify.

The whole point that people are trying to make is that Voyager didn't even try.

Yes, and I agree. I'm just saying that if they had tried, it would've still gotten stale after 2 seasons or so anyways and they'd need something new to keep the story going. VOY's initial premise is the one you give a miniseries, not a 7 season show.

Year of Hell that takes a years worth of episodes.
Maybe at the end of Year of Hell, when they destroyed the ship, it STAYS destroyed.

"Wow, what a loser. Captain Kirk never would've let his ship be destroyed like that."

Look at DS9, the Defiant gets destroyed and they get a new one like the destruction of the old one didn't matter. Or how Kirk got the Enterprise-A, or how the Enterprise was 100% rebuilt after "Star Trek Beyond".

Would Voyager get that kind of fair treatment? No it wouldn't. It would just be taken as another sign of the crew being utter incompetents.