That's a bit un-trekky....... How Non Federation of them to deport all the poor people?
I'm sure Riker said they eliminated poverty in the years after the first warp flight. He said those words in First Contact.
How would a society with no money work?
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
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That's a bit un-trekky....... How Non Federation of them to deport all the poor people?
I'm sure Riker said they eliminated poverty in the years after the first warp flight. He said those words in First Contact.
There is money in the Federation if you watch closely. Or at least you can see the points where it has to be. Or rather I should say there is a form of payment and spending.
While the Federation or at least Starfleet economy would appear to be leveraged on near infinite energy reserves, there does seem to be some degree of metering out access to them. One assumes that Starfleet personnel have some manner of budgeted replicator credits to be used for food, personal effects, Holodeck time etc. you can see hints of this in little things like Data seeking to choose an appropriate wedding present using the replicator. There is an implication there of some degree of budget. Other things hint at it. Starfleet employees are not building personal wealth. But their needs are being met via some form of budgeted and graduated compensation. It's just that it is in a closed system that cannot be exchanged with an outside party, such as a Ferengi trader. Something in line with the Soviet Ruble. But even then the Fed's manage to pay for drinks at Quarks.
Perhaps the biggest sign that there does in fact have to be some form of currency exchange happening is seen in Sisco's fathers restaurant. Fresh ingredients. Stored in a refrigerator. There has to be some form of economic exchange going on somewhere to account for them. Similarly Robert Picards winery. These are family businesses trading for resources produced by other family businesses.
So yeah Picard's raving is Bullshit. The Federation is very much a state controlled economy, metering out resources on the basis of perceived merit. But there still must be a medium of exchange there, just based on what we see on screen. (Rodenberry may have been a great writer and producer. But his grasp on actual economics was... Well sadly pretty common for a Hollywood writer and producer. Completely and utterly clueless romanticized fantasy.)
While the Federation or at least Starfleet economy would appear to be leveraged on near infinite energy reserves, there does seem to be some degree of metering out access to them. One assumes that Starfleet personnel have some manner of budgeted replicator credits to be used for food, personal effects, Holodeck time etc. you can see hints of this in little things like Data seeking to choose an appropriate wedding present using the replicator. There is an implication there of some degree of budget. Other things hint at it. Starfleet employees are not building personal wealth. But their needs are being met via some form of budgeted and graduated compensation. It's just that it is in a closed system that cannot be exchanged with an outside party, such as a Ferengi trader. Something in line with the Soviet Ruble. But even then the Fed's manage to pay for drinks at Quarks.
Perhaps the biggest sign that there does in fact have to be some form of currency exchange happening is seen in Sisco's fathers restaurant. Fresh ingredients. Stored in a refrigerator. There has to be some form of economic exchange going on somewhere to account for them. Similarly Robert Picards winery. These are family businesses trading for resources produced by other family businesses.
So yeah Picard's raving is Bullshit. The Federation is very much a state controlled economy, metering out resources on the basis of perceived merit. But there still must be a medium of exchange there, just based on what we see on screen. (Rodenberry may have been a great writer and producer. But his grasp on actual economics was... Well sadly pretty common for a Hollywood writer and producer. Completely and utterly clueless romanticized fantasy.)
Not necessarily. It they all can be just elaborate hobbies from our perspective. Elder Sisko gets his stuff for free from someone's hobby farm and makes food out of it, again giving it again for free. Same with Picards' wine.
Similarly, Kor didn't recognize Captain Kirk in "Errand of Mercy." Presumably, the Klingon Empire would have had all kinds of intelligence on Starfleet ships, personnel, etc.
Edit: Wait, this is a necro-thread. How did this get revived?
Kor
Don't you think that colonization program is the same as getting people out of the paradise (Earth)? Because of the expansion / colonization, you have to take some people from Earth and move them to another planet (untapped planet? Virgin Planet?). And who are these people who willing to leave the paradise and live in an empty planet? I get it, the first wave of colonization will always have full of enthusiastic. But when it has become something that regularly done; and people know that open new area is not as easy as living on Earth, then it's not an average Joe who willing to do that. It's either people who are chosen by the Government (Federation) or people who seek the opportunity in the new place. I don't think that people who love the comfort of Earth is willing to do that.
Leaving Earth to live in a jungle planet is different than to explore the new world in a Star Ship. Being a Starfleet Personnel is not the same as leaving the Paradise. It is a job; a responsibility that they have to do as the employee of the Government. When their tour of duty finished, they can return to the Paradise (Earth). But Colonists are different. They leave Earth for good, in order to live in another planet. And that is the answer why there is no Poor People on Earth. They left.
People work because they actually want to. Work is as much a part of human nature as is play or rest. If, as Flint said, immortality consists mainly of boredom, so too would prosperity unless you do something to pass the time.
Current economic systems, be it capitalism, socialism, communism, or whatever are all abut the allocation of scarce resources. Once the resources are no longer scarce a lot of conventional economic thinking is quickly defenstrated.
The old socialist mantra of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." is obsoleted and replaced with "From each machine according to its ability, from each person according to his inclination, to each person according to his desire."
The post-workers paradise.
Current economic systems, be it capitalism, socialism, communism, or whatever are all abut the allocation of scarce resources. Once the resources are no longer scarce a lot of conventional economic thinking is quickly defenstrated.
The old socialist mantra of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." is obsoleted and replaced with "From each machine according to its ability, from each person according to his inclination, to each person according to his desire."
The post-workers paradise.
The problem with that is in order to pull it off you need to quickly find a new species of people. Otherwise the "Internet Rule of Porn" will quickly overwhelm your society.
I mean think about it. Star Trek imagines the wonderful possibilities were the sum total of human knowledge was instantly at the fingertips of everyone. All the time. 30 years later we actually have this wonderful thing... And it's 80% porn and a further 15% funny cat videos and screaming Swedish gamers. The unlimited resource world of Star Trek would look more like the mess Nog had to mop up out of Quarks Holosuites after a long busy Saturday night.
And tell me, what drive you to take the opportunity to build a new world? Don't use the non sense idealistic reason. They are human, not brain washed idiot who eat up every propaganda that the Federation throw to them. And it is human nature to seek a better life. And it is always people who think that the new world will give them more opportunity / a better life. And who are these people? They are the unfortunate people who see that Earth is not for them. AKA poor people, AKA people who can't compete with the elite because of their limitation, etc.
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Amaris
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Freedom. Liberty. The Federation may be a bit too draconian for their tastes, or maybe they don't like the state controlled prosperity. There are people alive today who are absurdly wealthy, who dream of having more wealth without restraint. While that would likely be frowned upon in the Federation, even curtailed, there are plenty of rocks out there upon which to plant one's own flag and set one's own rules.
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Well, first off I don't think anybody had to clean up the holosuite as I'd think that any matter left behind would be absorbed by the system as raw material for future use. I also don't think that accumulation of goods would be an issue except for "hoarder" personality types. Why would an Imelda Marcos accumulate hundreds of pairs of shoes when a new pair could simply be replicated. Heck, tweak the program a bit and you could even get them already "broken in".
But I do believe that there would be a fascinating story on how they got to there from where we are now. When replicators were first invented the makers had to believe that, as with the Industrial and Computer revolutions before them, that the wealth generated by the machines should accrue to those who owned the machines. I suspect that the difference could be attributed to the Vulcan presence, even if not to direct influence on their parts.
But I do believe that there would be a fascinating story on how they got to there from where we are now. When replicators were first invented the makers had to believe that, as with the Industrial and Computer revolutions before them, that the wealth generated by the machines should accrue to those who owned the machines. I suspect that the difference could be attributed to the Vulcan presence, even if not to direct influence on their parts.
In Errand of Mercy, Spock was successfully able to assume to persona of a Vulcan merchant, the Klingons (although suspicious) were willing to accept him as such. In Voyager we hear of a Vulcan selling things, even jacking up the price after evaluating a couple of prospective customers.
Vulcans have money and trade.
If Earth practices a no money system, they didn't get it from the Vulcans.
Vulcans have money and trade.
If Earth practices a no money system, they didn't get it from the Vulcans.
In my opinion, the galaxy still use the currency system to trade. It is only Earth that abandon that system. So even if the people on Earth can enjoy everything freely, the Government (Federation), still use currency system to trade with other civilization. And no, it isn't about the godly power of the replicator. I doubt that Replicator can replicate everything. Gold Pressed Latinum is one of them. So the government of Earth still need "currency" to trade those un-replicate materials. For example dilithium. the power source of Star Ship warp drive. It just because the Earth Government is so rich that they can afford to facilitate the people with their daily need.
Plus, I doubt that replicator can replicate everything perfectly. Even with the food that people hate it and prefer the real food. So it can be that the spare-part etc that replicate by the replicator has different quality than the real material. Maybe the endurance, the strength, etc. So no. Replicator is not the answer. I believe that they still plant cotton on Earth, Using it as the material to make fabric. They still mine ores somewhere in the empty rock out there to get material for manufacture; etc.
The work on Earth Economy is the same as the relation between the corporation and their employee. Where the employee can get daily need free, in exchange for their work to the Government. it's only that the government is so rich that they can pay for the living expanse of the whole planet.
Plus, I doubt that replicator can replicate everything perfectly. Even with the food that people hate it and prefer the real food. So it can be that the spare-part etc that replicate by the replicator has different quality than the real material. Maybe the endurance, the strength, etc. So no. Replicator is not the answer. I believe that they still plant cotton on Earth, Using it as the material to make fabric. They still mine ores somewhere in the empty rock out there to get material for manufacture; etc.
The work on Earth Economy is the same as the relation between the corporation and their employee. Where the employee can get daily need free, in exchange for their work to the Government. it's only that the government is so rich that they can pay for the living expanse of the whole planet.
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If Vulcan (and other Federation species) have a economy that includes money, while Earth (and different other Federation species) don't use money, how would that work?
Or maybe it doesn't? The different species have their own internal economies/systems, and the Federation doesn't have a central dominate system.
Or maybe it doesn't? The different species have their own internal economies/systems, and the Federation doesn't have a central dominate system.
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I think much of the core value of gold pressed Latinum as Ferengi currency stemmed from the fact that it could not be replicated (or likely transported). Thus allowing Feregi society and economic health to be based on a Latinum standard. Weirdly and almost counter intuitively in Star Trek this is probably the only bit of future economics that is not complete and utter hogwash, actually makes sense, and would hold up to scrutiny.
Yeah let that sink in. Likely the only species or civilization depicted in Star Trek, that could in fact likely really function... Is the Ferengi.
Yeah let that sink in. Likely the only species or civilization depicted in Star Trek, that could in fact likely really function... Is the Ferengi.
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