How would a society with no money work?

[Makarov]

I still think the idea that Starfleet is some upper level of Trek society and out of touch with some poor areas of earth goes against the spirit TNG (can't speak for DS9 as I haven't watched it). People don't join Starfleet to get priviliges in the show they join to improve themselves as Picard said.

About Zimmerman and the EMH doing janitorial work, he was mostly upset that his face was on holograms that were a symbol of his failure to make them good enough to do the job he designed them to do. Could have been people doing it before that, or just robots of some kind.

 

[Ithekro]

Are there any advanced ecomonic theories that do not use currency? Are there even theoretical models of a currency-less economy that is suited for modern or post modern society?

I do not mean the removal of money, I mean currency. Even of the digital kind, as a model without just money is just credit cards and no "standard" based on a specific metal. We've had that at least potentally for generations already.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

I still think the idea that Starfleet is some upper level of Trek society and out of touch with some poor areas of earth goes against the spirit TNG (can't speak for DS9 as I haven't watched it). People don't join Starfleet to get priviliges in the show they join to improve themselves as Picard said.

+1

 

[hux]

I still think the idea that Starfleet is some upper level of Trek society and out of touch with some poor areas of earth goes against the spirit TNG (can't speak for DS9 as I haven't watched it). People don't join Starfleet to get priviliges in the show they join to improve themselves as Picard said.

I don think they're ignorant of the poor (I doubt a poor as we know it even exists) but I suspect they are slightly ignorant of the intricacies of a non-Starfleet existence and the day to day problems faced by most people.

If people only join Starfleet to improve themselves then why didn't the waiter join Starfleet? Presumably there are people who don't want to better themselves which if true, demonstrates that Picard was erroneous when claiming that "everyone" did want that. So we know his assessment of 24th century life isn't entirely accurate.

Think of all the people we've met in the show who were humans/Federation citizens/equally advanced and ask yourself, how many of them were doing things that could be described as bettering themselves?

I think the "better ourselves" philosophy we hear about is very very Starfleet influenced.

 

[T'Girl]

I still think the idea that Starfleet is some upper level of Trek society and out of touch with some poor areas of earth goes against the spirit TNG

Maybe less of a "upper level" and more of a secure separate community, with a different cultural mindset.

We've seen that not just anyone can walk up and get into Starfleet, Starfleet is selective as to who they allow in. Superior in mind and body. This would meet the definition of "elite."

Of the Starfleet personnel that we focus on, all apparently are "lifers." Kirk spoke to Tomlin about periodicly signing on (extending a commitment?), But we don't see people fullfilling their enlistment/commitments and returning to civilian life, short of retirement.

People don't join Starfleet to get priviliges in the show they join to improve themselves as Picard said.

It would be quite odd if everyone who joined Starfleet did so for the exact same reason.

Young people today join the services to serve their country and community, begin their adult lives, education, adventure, leave home, acquire work, three square meals a day.

Could have been people doing it before that, or just robots of some kind.

Robots are suprisingly absent from the Trek-universe. There are a few androids, holograms, and the exocomps, beyond them no, people do the work.

Are there any advanced ecomonic theories that do not use currency?

None that have been proven to work on even a limited scale, certain not on a large scale over a protracted period of time.

We've had that at least potentally for generations already.

Not really, the largest "experiment" I know of with no money was in Spain prior to the second world war involving a fair size region, it began to fall apart on it's own after a few years and because the communities back the losing side in the Spanish civil war, the experiment collapsed completely.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

We've seen that not just anyone can walk up and get into Starfleet, Starfleet is selective as to who they allow in. Superior in mind and body. This would meet the definition of "elite."

Contrast this with Heinlein's concept of "Federal Service," in which the military must accept absolutely everyone who signs up - it's forbidden from rejecting anyone, for any reason. And despite all the (inaccurate and undeserved, IMHO) shit Heinlein used to get for supposedly being "fascist," isn't this the more acceptable option than a military that will only accept the elite?

IMHO, everyone who wants to serve should be allowed to.

 

[Ithekro]

We never see the process of how one enlists into Starfleet. Just the process for entry into Starfleet Academy, with those seen going for officers positions.

That said Starfleet keeps thinking it is not the military, so perhaps there is also a military were anyone can serve. Planetary defense forces and the like.



Could the Federation's economy had been some form of buy into the future style economy (Social Security taken to a massive extreme) were those that planned it as the New Economy expected a small number of people to buy into doing work for later services and the flood of work generated exceeded the potenal of anyone needing to work for generations. Meaning that peoples needs and wants have been paid for in advance due to the work of prior generations, but people still work to generate a whatever it was their grandparents generated so that future generations will continue to not need to pay for anything directly. Thus no currency changes hands on any personal level as the need to pay for anything is redundant since it is effectively already been paid for. Work having once had a monetary value, that value becoming the Federation credit. But with work generated exceeding the potental purchasing needs onthe post-scarcity worlds, there would be more credits generated than could possibly be used by any individual. Thus over the centuries, the currency that was the Federation credit became redundant for use on Earth and potentally in Federation space as everything one could buy was effectively already paid for.

"Bettering ourselves" allows the system to generate work which effectively continues to make the credit's value meaningless to the average citizen as their work pays for what people would potentally purchase two generation later.

That and while nice, paradise can get boring. Not eveyone would want to live in it as people's concepts of paradise differ. There are people today that have lots and lots of money, yet go and work or perform tasks that would generally not be considered just living in paradise (ones every whim fulfilled) or have you have those that worked enough to retire and life without wants, yet they still work for decades after their needs are filled.

The odd thought I had last night was peculiar. That the Federation economy is LARP based. Live Action Role Playing. Everyone needs XP for some reason and all tasks still need to get done, so someone had to roleplay the servers and cleaners as they have to roleplay the traders and cooks, and officers, and enlisted. Everyone needs their XP, but it doesn't have a practical purpose save maybe to level up to better potental job description.

As said, it was a weird idea.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

We never see the process of how one enlists into Starfleet. Just the process for entry into Starfleet Academy

True dat. We don't know if enlistees can be rejected like prospective Academy cadets can.

 

[Makarov]

Robots are suprisingly absent from the Trek-universe. There are a few androids, holograms, and the exocomps, beyond them no, people do the work.

We see on TNG technology completely eliminated the need for a chef to make food for the crew, as well as garbage disposal and presumably any cleaning needed since the ship is self cleaning. They don't even need bartenders but Guinan seems to do it anyway. Neelix works as a chef even though there's no need for a cook as well. People do things as hobbies and to give their days some meaning.

If people only join Starfleet to improve themselves then why didn't the waiter join Starfleet? Presumably there are people who don't want to better themselves which if true, demonstrates that Picard was erroneous when claiming that "everyone" did want that. So we know his assessment of 24th century life isn't entirely accurate.

A lot of people are not cut out for Starfleet or they quit because they want to. Then they try to improve themselves in other ways, like Wesley does on the show. Find their own place and calling. Just like Picard's friend who was working on something in the deep oceans.

 

[hux]

Part of the problem is assessing just how hard it is to get into and then graduate from the academy. "Coming of Age" suggests just getting into the academy is a monumentally difficult endeavour and even geniuses like Wesley struggle with the task.

Meanwhile, other episodes suggest that any arse hat can get in.

We don't know much about graduation. Do people come out of the academy with specific qualifications in science/command/security etc or do they all finish with the same qualifications and choose those areas of specialty as their careers progress?

I definitely believe that there is a Stafleet class though. These people clearly have a status in society that others lack.

 

[T'Girl]

Contrast this with Heinlein's concept of "Federal Service," in which the military must accept absolutely everyone who signs up - it's forbidden from rejecting anyone, for any reason.

You seem to be referring to Starship Troopers, no the military service didn't have to accept everyone who attempted to volunteer. There was a selection/rejection process.

However the government did have to accept anyone who wish to perform some form of federal service in order to become a full citizen. Even if that person was incapable of doing anything useful, the government would create some bullshit job for them to do, in order that they might become a citizen.

IMHO, everyone who wants to serve should be allowed to.

Starfleet likely has certain manpower requirements, I (imo) doubt Starfleet would take everyone who wanted to join.

 

[suarezguy]

I definitely believe that there is a Stafleet class though. These people clearly have a status in society that others lack.

While it was probably just a contrivance rather than thought-out, in the TNG episodes "Starship Mine" and "Gambit" the criminals didn't recognize Picard, I don't know if there are clear supporting or contrasting examples but it's interesting to consider that Starfleet achievement doesn't generate a lot of prestige among the general population.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I definitely believe that there is a Stafleet class though. These people clearly have a status in society that others lack.

While it was probably just a contrivance rather than thought-out, in the TNG episodes "Starship Mine" and "Gambit" the criminals didn't recognize Picard, I don't know if there are clear supporting or contrasting examples but it's interesting to consider that Starfleet achievement doesn't generate a lot of prestige among the general population.

I wouldn't think there would be. Starfleet may be something of a class apart and carry a certain amount of recognition in and of itself, but regular people aren't part of Starfleet's world, so they aren't going to pay too much attention to Starfleet news. It's just like the military today - there's a ton of people out there who will make a huge deal about someone being a soldier, serving your country, etc, but how many of those people would actually recognize any soldiers that they don't personally know, if they don't actively take part in that world? War heroes make the paper maybe once, most generals or admirals not even that. But people still get sentimental about a person in uniform, nonetheless.

 

[T'Girl]

I definitely believe that there is a Stafleet class though. These people clearly have a status in society that others lack.

As members of Starfleet yes, but that wouldn't mean they would each possess individual celebrity in the eyes of the general public..

but it's interesting to consider that Starfleet achievement doesn't generate a lot of prestige among the general population.

While a starship or starship captain might occasional do something that makes the news, the general public could be largely obvious to the details of Starfleet's activities. Starfleet could have followers (and even groupies), and family members would have a greater interest.

Today, I have two brothers in the US Army, so I have more of a interest on what's going on in the US military. I've noticed that most people don't possess my level of interest in that area, to many people the military is this vague "thing."

The criminals in Starship Mine perhaps knew Picard's name, but didn't recognize him when they ran across him in a corridor. While inside the Starfleet community Picard could easily be a minor celebrity.

but how many of those people would actually recognize any soldiers that they don't personally know

To be fair, the US Army alone has just over a million personnel.

I don think they're ignorant of the poor (I doubt a poor as we know it even exists) ...

Well if you have a economic scale where there's a middle and a more so at one end and a less than at the other end, I guess you could label to folks at one of the far ends as "poor."

Unless you want to stipulate that everyone without exception occupies the same point on this economic scale.

So the next question becomes....where/how did she earn/acquire that money/currency?

Also, if Red has one of these accounts, how many of the others do as well?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

To be fair, the US Army alone has just over a million personnel.

Correct, my point is simply that even people who treat the military as a whole with a certain amount of celebrity do not necessarily follow that world closely enough to recognize those individuals who should be considered relatively recognizable (generals, admirals, those soldiers who may have done something particularly newsworthy, etc). Basically exactly what you said about people who recognize starfleet not automatically recognizing Picard.

 

[hux]

Not sure why people are talking about celebrity.

Celebrity and status are different things. I meant Starfleet people have a higher status in society as a whole. And remember, Starfleet - though military - is an organisation that covers almost every civilian endeavour. All the engineers, designers, architects, explorers, physicians etc seem to exist under the umbrella of Starfleet.

The military isn't an adequate analogue. It's reach goes far beyond the military/exploration activities we see in the show.

People who become achievers in any field would also appear to quickly come under the purview of Starfleet. It is the highest class within the Federation. More than just a uniform and a phaser.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Not sure why people are talking about celebrity.

Celebrity and status are different things. I meant Starfleet people have a higher status in society as a whole. And remember, Starfleet - though military - is an organisation that covers almost every civilian endeavour. All the engineers, designers, architects, explorers, physicians etc seem to exist under the umbrella of Starfleet.

The military isn't an adequate analogue. It's reach goes far beyond the military/exploration activities we see in the show.

People who become achievers in any field would also appear to quickly come under the purview of Starfleet. It is the highest class within the Federation. More than just a uniform and a phaser.

People are talking about celebrity because the claim was made that it was strange that regular people didn't seem to recognize famous starfleet officers. That status and celebrity aren't the same is exactly the point: starfleet officers clearly enjoy a certain status, but are not likely to be unusually well known (no celebrity).

Also, while Starfleet has room for all disciplines, I really don't think you can claim that the best of all disciplines automatically fall under the Starfleet umbrella. There have been lots and lots of civilian scientists shown throughout Trek history, and probably the only reason you haven't seen more civilian doctors, architects, explorers, etc, is because the shows follow starfleet officers and when starfleet officers need something they turn to starfleet first.

 

[robau]

Assuming that things like department stores survive into the future how would that work? Would you just take stuff off the shelf and walk out?

I know absurd example but I'm trying to think how that would have worked at least on Earth.

I've tried to look for people walking around with shopping bags while Spock is chasing Khan. Haven't noticed any yet.

 

[T'Girl]

I've tried to look for people walking around with shopping bags while Spock is chasing Khan. Haven't noticed any yet.

Your purchases are delivered to your residence in vintage school buses.

 

[Brainsucker]

Okay. Now how does this economy work without currency? At least by the 2360s.

What sort of upbringing and moral standards are needed to get a society to work without a form of currency as coompensation? Are there skill set placements at a young age that puts people on certain paths that don't leed to Starfleet?

yes, I agree. It doesn't make sense. Even if they decide to abolish money and form a society without money. It's too idealistic / illogical if that concept work just because of the morality of the people. But I think that the concept can work. But it is not because of the morality of Human Being in the 24th Century. They still use the ancient concept of Punishment and Reward. And don't be ridiculous; The reward is not "prestige" or self satisfaction. If people willing to clean the sewer everyday just for self satisfaction and to be praised by other people, then be my guest. But nope, I won't do that. And I'm sure that the majority of the posters won't do that either.

I think the work in 24th century Star Trek is still the same as today or even in the ancient time. People work because they need to, not because they want to. In ancient time, people work because they need to survive. today, we work because we need to survive. So the people in 24th century Star trek is the same. They work because they need to survive. Not because they choose to work or not.

And just like today, work need obligation from the people who do that. Without obligation, it is not a work; it is a hobby. If being a tailor is just a hobby, then you don't have any obligation to finish the job that given to you. You can finish the job anytime you want. Because what? Because you don't have any obligation to finish the shirt that people ask you to make.

then so, what is the obligation for the people in 24th century Star Trek to their job? Prestige? Self Satisfaction? Nope. There is a more basic need that they pursue. It is the right to have something. Without a job, you won't have anything. You're just a beggar. Or even worse, You don't even have the right to live on Earth. So, you work for the Federation, the only boss on Earth.

If you work for the Federation, you will get many thing. If you're a simple sewer cleaner worker, then you'll get a small apartment and have the right to access some basic daily need. But if you're a Star Fleet Admiral, then you and your family will have the access of a lot of thing. Including to use the Government Starship to enjoy the holiday in Risa.

I don think they're ignorant of the poor (I doubt a poor as we know it even exists) but I suspect they are slightly ignorant of the intricacies of a non-Starfleet existence and the day to day problems faced by most people.

If people only join Starfleet to improve themselves then why didn't the waiter join Starfleet? Presumably there are people who don't want to better themselves which if true, demonstrates that Picard was erroneous when claiming that "everyone" did want that. So we know his assessment of 24th century life isn't entirely accurate.

Think of all the people we've met in the show who were humans/Federation citizens/equally advanced and ask yourself, how many of them were doing things that could be described as bettering themselves?

I think the "better ourselves" philosophy we hear about is very very Starfleet influenced.

There is no poor people on Earth. Because every poor, lazy, less capable people has been transported to live in a fringe world, far away from Earth; as a colonist.