Picard isn't out of touch though. He grew up on a vineyard so if things were operating less than the ideals he described, he would have picked that up from his life in that business. Not to mention his friends in the academy. As well as his interest in history. You can hardly be an effective diplomat if you're out of touch with your own species.
How would a society with no money work?
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
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So there is. Punishment for a cadet? Community service? Someone who just doesn't mind the work? :P
^ I'm going to hazard a guess that most janitors DO mind the work, and would rather be doing something else. Nobody ever does work like that for the enjoyment of it.
As for my final thoughts on a society with no money: Here you go.
As for my final thoughts on a society with no money: Here you go.
To be honest, none of that suggests to me that he's "in touch". Quite the opposite, it suggests he has a very specific and enclosed experience of 24th century life.
Why not?
Do most diplomats today have an excellent, in depth grasp of the worst/poorest parts of their society? I doubt it and yet they're also excellent diplomats (I doubt they have much cause to deal with people from the poorest parts of society).
If we are to marry the no money ideology with the events of the show which contradict that ideology then explanations are required. For me there are a limited number of sensible options that allow some leeway. Amongst them, I would include the idea that money does exist in some form but Starfleet people don't fully engage with or understand it. These people are clearly at the top of 24th century society and those at the top haven't historically always known as much as they claim about the rest of society (especially the bottom).
I take their speeches with a pinch of salt. That may be wrong, but it does allow me to make sense of the Trek economy without ignoring what the show has presented.
And in Voyager, the surplus EMH mark ones were scrubbing the insides of conduits, that sound pretty janitorial. Prior to them becoming availible, someone else had to do it.
If doing that scrubbing was considered a normal engineering job, why would Zimmerman have been upset with his invention being assigned that duty?
The job was grunt work.
How would you run a business, a bar for example, without knowing if your wait staff was going to show up for their shift. Yes, someone might quit, but when you're working to support yourself there is more of an incentive to be on time than if your doing it for a hobby.
You didn't read the whole thread (too long), it was previously pointed out that Roddenberry didn't made Star Trek all by himself.
It always was a collaborate effort, with decisions and input by many talented people. Roddenberry's "decrees" were never law, and as his health faded so did his input into the show.
Can you explain why this was never seen on the show? We never saw a social welfare system, Civilians had jobs and occupations, or were the spouses of them, or were the children of them. I think we only saw a single adult who said they were unemployed. Oh, and we saw some space hippies.
A civilization without deprivation could easily be the result of a vibrant economy with near total employment, the ability to purchase abundant merchandise, food, good and services. Earth's economy being the beneficiary of interstellar trade and a expanding frontier.
Okay. Now how does this economy work without currency? At least by the 2360s.
What sort of upbringing and moral standards are needed to get a society to work without a form of currency as coompensation? Are there skill set placements at a young age that puts people on certain paths that don't leed to Starfleet?
What sort of upbringing and moral standards are needed to get a society to work without a form of currency as coompensation? Are there skill set placements at a young age that puts people on certain paths that don't leed to Starfleet?
Remember also where Jake says he sold a book to the Federation News Service, but admitted he didn't get paid anything for it.
And there are statements in other episodes suggesting that a lot of things on earth are free.
One problem is, digital money, or anything like it, is still currency. Nog said currency. Picard said money. Are they both the same thing?
Maybe Trek stumbled a bit with claiming that humans don't deal in currency, or there is no money, period, in their society.
Especially since they said all this stuff later in the series and movies.
So it wasn't just one of those early episodes where they boasted about how utopian they are, it was later on after the shows grew and came into its own.
I guess it could make some sense in the sense that the replicator was the ultimate solution in providing all of humanity's basic needs, so humans decided to give up using money.
My theory is it makes more sense if humans work to pay into the replicator system, so that's the motivation to work. The more you put in, the more you can get out.
But if that's the case, then Picard and everyone else is exaggerating a bit about no want or need.
There is no want or need, but Kassidy needs to smuggle goods for the Maquis, Vash needs to steal artifacts to sell.
Bilby needs to join the Orion Syndicate an alien criminal organization. None of these examples, makes any sense.
And there are statements in other episodes suggesting that a lot of things on earth are free.
One problem is, digital money, or anything like it, is still currency. Nog said currency. Picard said money. Are they both the same thing?
Maybe Trek stumbled a bit with claiming that humans don't deal in currency, or there is no money, period, in their society.
Especially since they said all this stuff later in the series and movies.
So it wasn't just one of those early episodes where they boasted about how utopian they are, it was later on after the shows grew and came into its own.
I guess it could make some sense in the sense that the replicator was the ultimate solution in providing all of humanity's basic needs, so humans decided to give up using money.
My theory is it makes more sense if humans work to pay into the replicator system, so that's the motivation to work. The more you put in, the more you can get out.
But if that's the case, then Picard and everyone else is exaggerating a bit about no want or need.
There is no want or need, but Kassidy needs to smuggle goods for the Maquis, Vash needs to steal artifacts to sell.
Bilby needs to join the Orion Syndicate an alien criminal organization. None of these examples, makes any sense.
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By using electronic financial transfers.
Probably only a small fraction of one percent of the populace go into Starfleet.
The local news media here is Seattle accepts reports from unpaid submitters, they will on occasion assist in obtaining press credentials to gain access to events.
Jake (imho) sold the FNS on the idea of the book, a collection of his past stories.
For example?
But currency (most commonly) is coins, banknotes, and otherwise physical money.
Kirk observes a woman putting coins into a newspaper vending machine, he then said "they're still using money ..." Now from Kirk's time in 1930's America he was aware that physical currency is used in the past, but when it ceases to be used routinely might have been outside of his knowledge.
That implies that replicator use doesn't come will a cost. You don't have to make an initial purchase, and there are no operationg expenses. And then there are the things you would need or want that either don't come out a replicator, or that you simply want to obtain from another source.
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The same way you run any volunteer organization. It's not rocket science...
Assuming that things like department stores survive into the future how would that work? Would you just take stuff off the shelf and walk out?
I know absurd example but I'm trying to think how that would have worked at least on Earth.
I know absurd example but I'm trying to think how that would have worked at least on Earth.
Digital money is still currency. A dollar passed via a bank note or a electical signal is still currency. A bitcoin is still currency. A credit is still currency. Currency does not have to have a phycial medium but is still a currency as seen today with digital currencies.
Therefore the Federation has to have something far more radical than we are thinking for an political-economic system.
Anarcho-sydicalist Representive Democracy?
Therefore the Federation has to have something far more radical than we are thinking for an political-economic system.
Anarcho-sydicalist Representive Democracy?
Not the way I'd use the term but okay, they abandon physical money, but retain other manifestations of money. When Nog said Humans abandoned "currency" he meant that.
Crusher was using something.
How is Jake from Earth?
We hear of money in the Federation.
No one is avoiding it, while some might not prefer the explanations, explanations are being offered.
If Starfleet is purchasing antimatter, then the rate it is use for a given task could be a matter of financial consideration.. The Enterprise doesn't alway travel at it's top cruising speed, fuel expenditure might be a reason.
And then we learn that Kasidy Yates is worried about freight contracts.
Paris's story about money disappearing in the late 22nd century makes no sense baring in mind dialog from the 23rd century. No, Paris wasn't telling the truth.
A fond remembrance from Janeway past, not a yarn, and how would Kes's "I'm sure it was the logical thing to do" indicate a yarn?
How I compose my postings is my business.
He's telling the truth but it's a version of the truth understood by people at the top of society. I'm telling you, these Starfleet people are a different breed. They exist in a world outside of the realities faced by most people in the Federation. Paris might like to see himself as a bad boy from the streets because he spent ten minutes in a penal colony but sorry no, he's a privileged admirals son who understands the world in those terms.
When these guys give their statements about the economy and Federation life, I think it's entirely coloured by their backgrounds and experience. Starfleet is the aristocracy of the future. Their statements about only doing things to "better ourselves" and "money disappearing" are right up there with "let them eat cake".
I think people like O'Brien might have a better grasp of what's really going on out there.
I'm going off the article I posted a link too. I implore everyone to read it, it covers almost everything.
Look at Jake Sisko, he (iirc) was born aboard the USS Livingston, Jake has been a "military brat" all of his life. His early years were perhaps very similar to Naomi Wildman's, living in a protected community, very safe (until Wolf359), and the darling of the ship. Jake probably walked the surface of a hundred different planets before we see him for the first time.
When we first see him, he is a teenager and what the military calls a dependent, if (as I suspect) replicator use comes at a cost, that cost would be born by his parent. While it might not be a case of Jake wanted for nothing, that statement likely isn't too far off.
Jake possesses "Starfleet Privilege." Like modern day privilege Jake would see his existence as the “default” this is the average. The cultural norms he received from his family upbringing and Starfleet schooling are of course universal. Jake assumes everyone wants to live in the Federation, why would anyone not want to?
The way Jake feels about Starfleet and the Federation, Jake is confused when others feel the same about their own groups, cultures, home worlds.
One of Jake scenes in DS9 is where he (famously) says "There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity."
Nog immediately asks Jake; "What does that mean exactly?" At this point Jake very obviously becomes confused, it's possible he never actually thought about it before, it was just a given.
Like so much in his life.
So the base assumption is that Starfleet are lying/misinformed because they are the upper class? And that the Federation economy and society works basically like it does today, minus physical currency?
Doesn't that go entirely against the point of the topic and the author's intent of presenting Earth as utopia? An intent that other author's hated. Yet that intent is still presented over the course of those 14 years (I don't remember it coming up on Enterprise).
As for Paris and Kirk and the 22nd and 23rd centuries verse Picard and the 24th, I would consider that the evolution of their economic system. In the 22nd century they got ride of money (physical media). By the 24th they get rid of currency based economic (the remaining non-phyical media).
Doesn't that go entirely against the point of the topic and the author's intent of presenting Earth as utopia? An intent that other author's hated. Yet that intent is still presented over the course of those 14 years (I don't remember it coming up on Enterprise).
As for Paris and Kirk and the 22nd and 23rd centuries verse Picard and the 24th, I would consider that the evolution of their economic system. In the 22nd century they got ride of money (physical media). By the 24th they get rid of currency based economic (the remaining non-phyical media).
But why not pay him for all the reports and stories he sent to them? Doesn't that seem odd, a new service "hires" a person, often to report in very dangerous situations, and they don't believe in paying him?
The more you look into this, the odder it looks. Jake has:
--Interviewed Bashir for them, and ended up in the middle of a Klingon attack on a Federation colony. (Almost got killed)
--Promised to cover a first hand account of the battle of DS9
--Stayed at DS9 in order to send reports to them about living under Dominion occupation of DS9
--Was on the Defiant during the invasion of Chin'toka in order to send them a first hand account. (dangerous)
The FNS not paying their reporters to cover important, dangerous things, is like walking into 24th century earth department store and just ordering from the replicator and walking out--without paying anything.
A Simple Investigation-- An alien woman tells Odo she's from a world that's not like a Federation world, "where everything is handed to you".
Let He Who is Without Sin --
I agree on this-- ongoing replicator use for billions of people? There has to be an energy issue, as well nightmare of logistics-
One thing though--if humans no longer use animals for meat, and replicators may not be that widespread--then what are these people eating for meat/protein??
The idea that being in Starfleet is payment in the form of first class treatment or prestige...I don't know...that seems like more classism to me. Which would bring up yet again issues of discrimination and such.
Joseph Sisko serves real shellfish in his restaurant, there's a scene of Ben scrubbing a bucket of them.
Robert Picard grew grapes, the Rozhenko's lived on a "farming world," so Humans still know how to grow food. It might be more cost and energy effective on a fertile planet to grow/harvest/transport crops than to replicate similar food.
Instead of "imprisoning" animals for eventual slaughter, food animals could be mostly free range.
Today, if I want something, I "get it" from a cupboard, a refrigerator, or a store. Just because it's convenient and easy, doesn't mean it's free.
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