How would a society with no money work?

[hux]

If you won't take Roddenberry at his word, then oh well, what else can I say?

But T'Girl did take him at his word. In this case, the words he wrote when Beverley said....."charge to doctor Crusher"

Simply because Roddenberry said there's no currency doesn't change that fact that this is often contradicted in the actual show. If Roddenberry had said....."there are no Romulans in Trek".....would you just accept that because he said it or would you watch the show and think.....hang on, yes there are?

 

[T'Girl]

Yes modern day restaurants are largely for profit businesses. But the general definition is simply:"A place where meals are served to the public." A restaurant that served food for free wouldn't stop being a restaurant.

No that's not the "general definition," restaurants are businesses that prepare and sell food and drink. If a restaurant "gave away" some food it could still be called a restaurant, but if it charged for none of it's product it wouldn't be a restaurant.

It was written by Gene Roddenberry and Dorothy Fontana.

If you won't take Roddenberry at his word, then oh well, what else can I say?

Even if the line came from Fontana, Roddenberry would have seen and signed off on it, this was the pilot, very important. The line wasn't in some throw away scene, it's where we first see that something unusual is going on at Farpoint Station.

Fontana, as a Star Trek writer, would sometimes go beyond the universe that Roddenberry was trying to form, and advance her own ideas. It was Fontana (and not Roddenberry) that established the Federation as a multi-species assemblage of equal partners.

Fontana might have place that dialog in the pilot specifically to establish a conventional economy within the Trek-verse, and Roddenberry's ideas on the subject being vague he didn't oppose it.

Any mention of a lack of money was far in TNG's future, by which time the dialog from Farpoint was long in canon.

 

[Ithekro]

Farpoint Station, which the Bandi were applying to be a Federation starbase, but was not as yet. So this is still outside Federation space, which as we've seen sometimes needs currency exchange. Crusher was there before Enterprise arrived, so she's be use to whatever was going on. Note that the Bandi were a pre-warp civilization that had made a claim to be able to build a starbase to gain Federation membership.

This line does not invalidate the idea that Earth does not use currency in the 24th century.

 

[hux]

So this is still outside Federation space, which as we've seen sometimes needs currency exchange. Crusher was there before Enterprise arrived, so she's be use to whatever was going on.

Irrelevant.

She clearly has money/currency to purchase the cloth. The idea that she only uses it on worlds where it's needed then forgets about it when she not, doesn't changed the fact that she (a Federation citizen) clearly has access to currency?

So the next question becomes....where/how did she earn/acquire that money/currency?

This line does not invalidate the idea that Earth does not use currency in the 24th century.

But it does invalidate the idea that Federation citizens don't use or have access to currency. They obviously do.

 

[Mk_Sn]

- Everything is contradicted at least once in such a massive franchise. We could easily say the Federation doesn't exist in the Trek universe because early episodes made it clear they were just representing United Earth and its space agency (I'm talking TOS). Starfleet and the Federation didn't exist until later. Yet the core canon and basis for the universe includes a moneyless, post-scarcity Earth and Federation, as shown in the very wiki for Star Trek and numerous quotes, enforced by Roddenberry himself. This is basically a battle over Bible quotes, but the core canon still stands. I'm not sure why this is even being argued, this is kind of one of the most well known traits of Star Trek, a bunch of space commies who don't use money and live in a pie in the sky utopia exploring the cosmos.

No that's not the "general definition," restaurants are businesses that prepare and sell food and drink. If a restaurant "gave away" some food it could still be called a restaurant, but if it charged for none of it's product it wouldn't be a restaurant.

Yes it is. You're talking about the modern and colloquial definition. If a restaurant served food for free, it would still be a restaurant, hence the general definition stands.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If you won't take Roddenberry at his word, then oh well, what else can I say?

It's not a matter of questioning Gene's word, as such. The thing is, he was not and never was the ONLY writer who ever created Trek scripts. Gene may have had it in his mind that the Federation did not use money, but there are other writers, who wrote other episodes, which said that it did.

Like I said, the Federation uses money when a particular writer wants it to, and doesn't use money when another writer doesn't want it to. If a subsequent writer wants to do an episode or film which states flat-out that there is a monetary system in the Federation, they can do it, and it won't be any MORE of a contradiction than what we've already seen.

 

[Ithekro]

So this is still outside Federation space, which as we've seen sometimes needs currency exchange. Crusher was there before Enterprise arrived, so she's be use to whatever was going on.

Irrelevant.

She clearly has money/currency to purchase the cloth. The idea that she only uses it on worlds where it's needed then forgets about it when she not, doesn't changed the fact that she (a Federation citizen) clearly has access to currency?

So the next question becomes....where/how did she earn/acquire that money/currency?

This line does not invalidate the idea that Earth does not use currency in the 24th century.

But it does invalidate the idea that Federation citizens don't use or have access to currency. They obviously do.

She is outside Federation space on a pre-warp planet that still uses currency. We later see Starfleet interact with non-Federation worlds that use currency, and officers adapt to make payment of goods or services. Some are better at it than others. Likely through replicated gems or metals handed over at the local customs for local currency. Or however else they manage to interact with the likes of the Ferengi on DS9, or any number of non-Federation species. It might be even more simple. She said her account. This could be a method in which the Federation gets charged for goods and services by a non-Federation government, and the Federation provides replicated goods or energy to whatever seems fair. The local government figures out what that is worth and converts that to currency to hand over to the local business as payment for their services. In such an instance, the Federation is still not dealing in currency, just barter via replicator or transfer of energy from their matter-antimatter power plant.

This does not invalidate the idea that Federation citizens have no use for currency on Earth. Farpoint Station is not on Earth, nor in the Federation. Dr. Crusher arrived before Enterprise, probably on USS Hood. She would have access to that ship's replicator for access to whatever was needed to shop on Farpoint. It wouldn't be the first, nor last time a starship would needed to help the crew adapt to a non-Federation culture. Aside from Picard, Crusher is the oldest of what will be the Enterprise's long term senior staff, so she likely had more experiance than others.

Now if the Bandi has been smarter, they could have played off the creatures abilities as if they had a type of replicator that worked within a radius of the station. Though that would still get them in trouble, but only later when the engineer couldn't find how it worked to duplicate on other starbases.

 

[T'Girl]

You're talking about the modern and colloquial definition.

No, I'm referring to the meaning of the word since the time the word "restaurant" came into use in the eighteenth century.

Everything is contradicted at least once in such a massive franchise.

And given that the preponderance of references are that money exists on Earth and in the Federation, Picard's single clear statement that there's no money is the contradiction.

We could easily say the Federation doesn't exist in the Trek universe because early episodes made it clear they were just representing United Earth and its space agency

No and this is why. The early episodes never claimed that the Federation didn't exist, and later episodes never claimed that Earth didn't exist.

There is no contradiction.

 

[Ithekro]

And given that the preponderance of references are that money exists on Earth and in the Federation, Picard's single clear statement that there's no money is the contradiction.

Except Picard's is not the only statement that there is no money in Earth's 24th century culture. You have additional statements by Janeway, Paris, Jake Sisko, Nog, and Quark. I think Data as well. Likely others as well that I am forgetting. There are a lot of episodes, some with it barely coming up as a throw away line before the plot happens.

And as mentioned, some of the writers didn't like the idea of there being no money (even credits) in the 24th century. Wasn't it in at least the Next Generation's bible?

 

[hux]

- Everything is contradicted at least once in such a massive franchise. We could easily say the Federation doesn't exist in the Trek universe because early episodes made it clear they were just representing United Earth and its space agency (I'm talking TOS).

As far as I'm concerned, that only proves that there is no such thing as fixed canon. It's a fluid concept that takes into account everything within the franchise. Mistakes will be made and holes will appear but good sci-fi should never stand still and say "this is gospel" otherwise those mistakes and holes become idiotic. There is enough seen in Trek to argue that currency/wealth does exist in some way.

As far as I'm concerned "no money" simply means no notes/coins in the future.

She is outside Federation space on a pre-warp planet that still uses currency. We later see Starfleet interact with non-Federation worlds that use currency, and officers adapt to make payment of goods or services. Some are better at it than others. Likely through replicated gems or metals handed over at the local customs for local currency.

Now you're just making stuff up to fit retrospectively. She doesn't pay with money swapped for precious gems at customs, she says "charge to doctor Crusher" and even if she did replicate precious gems, that would still count as currency.

Maybe people don't care too much about it on Earth but they clearly have currency, know what it is and when to use it.

the Federation gets charged for goods and services by a non-Federation government, and the Federation provides replicated goods or energy to whatever seems fair. The local government figures out what that is worth and converts that to currency to hand over to the local business as payment for their services. In such an instance, the Federation is still not dealing in currency, just barter via replicator or transfer of energy from their matter-antimatter power plant.

What a remarkably convoluted system. If I were Bandi and had to go through all that purely to sell a bit of cloth, I'd probably refuse to ever sell to Federation citizens

No, I don't think that's a very effective system. Far easier to simply "have currency"

Farpoint Station is not on Earth, nor in the Federation. Dr. Crusher arrived before Enterprise, probably on USS Hood. She would have access to that ship's replicator for access to whatever was needed to shop on Farpoint.

That replicator really is a marvel of technology.

So she replicates rubies and gold on board the Enterprise, then cashes them in at the local government bureau de change for local currency, then tells the seller to "charge it to her"

Also, why not just replicate the damn cloth?

 

[Overgeeked]

So is the argument really now that since the dictionaries of today largely define a restaurant as a business therefore the economy of the future depicted in Star Trek cannot be viable? Eris, that's some pedantry. You are aware that definitions change over time, no? People in Trek often say 'call' when referring to communication over distance, yet they're not shown using a rotary phone to make said 'call'.

 

[Ithekro]

So your argument is that because she is charging her account for purchase on a non-Federation world invalidates the statement that Earth does not have a currency based economics?


As for Crusher shopping rather than replicating? I default to females when it comes to the concept of shopping.

 

[hux]

So your argument is that because she is charging her account for purchase on a non-Federation world invalidates the statement that Earth does not have a currency based economics?

I can totally accept that money doesn't exist (notes/coins) and that currency and wealth is of minor importance on Earth.....BUT the Federation clearly isn't a closed, insular society. We obviously mix with other cultures that do possess and care about currency/wealth (both on Earth and other worlds), trade with them, deal with them, communicate with them etc

Under those circumstances, I think most people must have access to currency of some kind (wouldn't it be short sighted of them not to) and they clearly use it where appropriate.

I would suggest that Beverly (like most people) has an account with currency/credits of some kind and uses it where necessary.....though that would raise the issue of....who puts the credits into everyone's accounts?

Here's another thought. If you're a species that do use currency, what happens when you go to Earth and everything is free? Wouldn't they vacation on Earth at every available opportunity. Can non-Federation members move to Earth?

Imagine if France said, everything is free here now. Houses, food, clothes, cars, you name it.......wouldn't half the planet move there?

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

Here's another thought. If you're a species that do use currency, what happens when you go to Earth and everything is free? Wouldn't they vacation on Earth at every available opportunity. Can non-Federation members move to Earth?

But Earth isn't the only Federation world, there's Risa for a start. Also, yes, I imagine other non - Federation members can move to Federation worlds. How the application would be would be another thing.

Also, citizens of countries without free healthcare can use the NHS for free... (Well aside from possible prescription charges in England depending on circumstances.)

 

[Ithekro]

We already know that various aliens also live on Earth by the 24th century. Most don't because of other non-economic factors. Enviromental factors usually are the reasons for aliens coming and going. Humans of any world stay or leave. Their choice. Each Federation colony world that has a majority of humans seems to try to recreate specific aspect of Earth on a larger scale. Earth's problem isn't the currency-less economy, it that there in no way to fit everything on one planet. Thus people moved out to recreate their personal version of what they like about Earth, be it Irish culture, Africal tribes, Native American tribes, Technological society, rural life, sex and relaxation planet, carnival rides and attractions planet, or whatever. Given the way the writers like to give single planets single note cultural backgrounds, it is likely that any culture or lifestyle on Earth, was recreated on a colony somewhere in the Federation. If you happen to not be able to get a spot on Earth due to there not being a vacancy, then you can easily move so a colony of your liking and live out your lifestyle.

 

[T'Girl]

Except Picard's is not the only statement that there is no money in Earth's 24th century culture.

Picard said there was no money in the 24th century, he never mention Earth.

You have additional statements by Janeway

Who told a story about shopping and buying an lamp with money.

Paris

Paris said "when the New World Economy took shape in the late 22nd century and money went the way of the dinosaur,"

Humans were using and frequently refering to money in the 23rd century. And there were Humans of wealth.

Jake Sisko

Jake said he didn't need money, not that money didn't exist.

Nog

Nog said "your species (Jake is Human) decided to abandon currency-based economics." Humans abandoned currency. And Nog was referring to Humans in general, and never mentioned Earth.

I have no problem with currency in the Trek-verse being abandoned in favor of solely using some form of electronic financial transfers.

Quark

Quark was able to sell his damaged shuttle on Earth, and use the proceeds to travel back to DS9.

I think Data as well

You would have to refresh me on that one, I don't immediately recall Data speaking on the subject one way or the other.

So your argument is that because she is charging her account for purchase on a non-Federation world invalidates the statement that Earth does not have a currency based economics?

The scene invalidates the idea that Humans no long use money or that money doesn't exist in the 24th century, Crusher is Human and she's obviously using money, this is in direct conflict with Picard statement that money doesn't exist in the 24th century.

And there no indication that Crusher was employing currency, the purchase was charged to her account.

As for Crusher shopping rather than replicating? I default to females when it comes to the concept of shopping.

Got one right here. A woman would much rather have clothing made of cloth or silk, rather than something made of a artificial substance like polyester or rayon.

Similarly, we treasure a real diamond that was mined out of the ground, but look with scorn at a artificial diamond manufactured in a reactor.

Beverly could make daily use of the repelicator, while still preferring natural materials.

 

[Lance]

The crucial thing about Crusher's shopping expedition at the bazzar on Deneb IV is that she specifically asks for the money to be charged to the Enterprise.

Evidently, even in the event of there being no money, there is clearly *some* kind of a system in place for these situations.

I'm certainly willing to accept the notion that while 'money' as we understand it today is dead in Star Trek's time, perhaps we can read that as being the complex financial systems that our current world operates on (wall street etc). I find there are so many contradictory statements about whether the characters know and use currency or not that it's easier for me to think that there's definitely a commerce system of some description, it just doesn't resemble anything we'd recognise.

 

[T'Girl]

The crucial thing about Crusher's shopping expedition at the bazzar on Deneb IV is that she specifically asks for the money to be charged to the Enterprise.

Slight clarification, Crusher said send the purchase to the Enterprise, the charge was to her account.

Today the vast majority of money is in the form of electronic bookkeeping, only six or seven percent of our money has a physical form. With their information system, a person's financial account information would be readily availible anywhere there was interactive information system.

Evidently, even in the event of there being no money, there is clearly *some* kind of a system in place for these situations.

Yes some kind, this would allow Kirk to both be able to honestly claim that money isn't used in the 23rd century, while also accurately stating that he sold a house.

 

[Ithekro]

Then the task is to imagine what that system is that is not currency based by the mid-24th century. And I don't mean specie based physical media, I mean any form of currency as we understand it. This would likely includes digital currency, since the writers were instructed that there were no "credits" either by the mid-24th century, though we know those still existed in the mid-23rd century.

The idea is that the Federation economy evolved into completely currency-less by sometime in the 24th century. Likely after the replicator was prefected.

The task is to not pick it apart as not being there. Denying that it exists defeats the purpose of the writers reminding us it exists over the course of three TV shows and at least one movie.

 

[Sci]

Some episodes and films claim that there is no money in the Federation. Others feature money in the Federation, including for internal trade. So the canon contradicts itself.

The easiest way to reconcile the explicitly anti-capitalist ideology of those episodes that claim humanity has evolved beyond greed with the references to money and transactions is to assume that the Federation is capable of providing the amount of wealth needed for all citizens (at least on its developed worlds) to live what we would today consider a middle-class First World lifestyle for free, and that anyone who wants more must engage in optional commerce for it--earning money to trade for luxuries. I.E., you could go your whole life living very comfortably without money, but if you want to live in a Malibu beach house, you've got to earn money for it.

And anyone who claims that the United States was not founded on slavery and genocide is lying -- either to themselves, or to others, or both.