How would a society with no money work?

[Ithekro]

Trade might also be family tradition going back to the boomers (like Travis' family on the Horizon).

Picard's winery was traditional.

Sisko's cooking skills were traditional.

As for why people don't stay on Earth's utopia, or don't just move back there? Maybe they just don't want to. Maybe the want to feel like they earned what they get rather than have it handed to them. I run into people like that that insist they work for what they get even if they can get it free. A lot of the people that lived though the Great Depression seemed like that. Defined by their job regardless of how much money they had. They could have had enough to do whatever they like if they retired early, yet didn't because they could not imagine what they would be without their job. I also knew some that basically died right after retiring, because they just didn't know what to do and their bodies shut down (lack of motivation to do anything as their mentality was, "if I don't have a job, I am nothing/worthless")

 

[T'Girl]

After Robert and Rene (not the wife) die, Marie inherits the vineyard and continues to operate it. She even had the house rebuilt.

And in one possible future, after leaving Starfleet Jean-Luc returns home and works the family property. Although ownership might have stayed with Marie, it's possible that Picard bought her out with his pension.

")

 

[hux]

So far it seems the extent of inequality a matter of who has the shorter walk to their favourite Cajun restaurant, or who gets one nice home instead of... another nice home. So people will grumble a bit?

One mans grumble is another mans revolution

My main issue with the beach houses is ownership. If they're owned and kept in families then surely this is demonstrative of an unfair, materialistic system.

That earth is still capitalist? That it's not such a great place to live? That we just can't figure out the details of how their society works?

I doubt it's still capitalist but there's definitely some materialism to be seen. We still haven't answered the Kassidy question. Why is she chasing profit?

Could a utopia theoretically exist? Sure, why not.

But was that utopia convincingly explained/portrayed in Trek. Not for me. Too many inconsistencies, too many contradictions.

Maybe the want to feel like they earned what they get rather than have it handed to them

Couldn't that be described as human nature? Isn't that what some people have been arguing has gone away. People have conflated human nature with materialism and greed but do people always want mansions and cars because they're greedy? Don't some people want them simply to show the world that they're proud of their achievements. They're proud of what they've earned.

 

[Lance]

TOS is definitely a different proposition, IMHO. Sure, Kirk and Spock don't understand "exact change" on the bus in TVH, but if commerce in the 23rd century is conducted 100% through electronic means, then that's more the concept of loose metal in their pockets that they've forgotten about. Kind of like if a modern human went back in time to old England, and had to grapple with the concept of pre-decimal currency.

Throughout TOS there are multiple references to Starfleet officers "earning their pay", and other references to how resources cost money (like them trying to buy the Dilithium from the miners in "Mudd's Women", a script written by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry himself, let's not forget). So, some kind of standard galactic commerce exists. And I always figured that the food slots on board ship worked on some kind of monetary system (you put those little cards into the machine, programme it to give you what you want, and it provides; my guess being that the cards are somehow electronically linked to a money database like you get on modern cruise liners, so the cost of the food gets charged to your account). And that's before we get onto Cyrano Jones and his Tribbles.

*If* there has been some kind of societal shift in which money has been abandoned, I'd argue it happens sometime in the 70 years between TUC and TNG. Quite what caused this shift I don't know, probably the change goes hand-in-glove with the invention of the replicator, something which Kirk's era did not have. But 70 years is a short enough time period for there to still be Earth humans around in Janeway's time who remember the old system.

 

[Overgeeked]

A lot of what's being used as "evidence" could just as easily be figures of speech. Like using the verb "to call" when referring to an audio-visual subspace message. Some fans seem to generally be unable to distinguish between figures of speech, people being inexact with their language, and a speaker being perfectly literal.

When Riker says he's had his beard for five years there's threads on how it's really been six years two months and how this is somehow a continuity error and there's a hidden year between... no. People don't speak like Data or Spock. Last year could be anywhere from one day ago (calendar roll over) to two or more years in the past (simply misremembering the exact days of things). So too with "earned their pay" and some of the other loose phrases, figures of speech, and simple imprecision with language.

 

[Nightdiamond]

It may be a very new thing, which is why we still see the remains of the older credit system from time to time in Picard's era. Also why sometime modern people didn't quite understand the replicator in the early seasons. It could be new to their generation and thus the change in economy is also new.

There might be a point to this. Some characters still compare real food to replicated food, implying that for a long time, a lot of people were still used to eating real food.

Once replicator use becomes real common after a century or so, most humans may have eaten only replicated food by then and wouldn't care.

Imagine: your basic needs for food, clothing, shelter, education, health, and entertainment are guaranteed.

Picard did say something about a number of "Guarantees" from the Federation constitution, like some type of bill of rights.

I can see where one of those would be that all humans would be decently fed, clothed and receive free and quality healthcare.

Some would interpret it as planetwide welfare, but it could also be seen as the logical result of an advanced, humanitarian government with an over abundance of resources.

Throughout TOS there are multiple references to Starfleet officers "earning their pay", and other references to how resources cost money (like them trying to buy the Dilithium from the miners in "Mudd's Women", a script written by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry himself, let's not forget). So, some kind of standard galactic commerce exists. And I always figured that the food slots on board ship worked on some kind of monetary system (you put those little cards into the machine, programme it to give you what you want, and it provides; my guess being that the cards are somehow electronically linked to a money database like you get on modern cruise liners, so the cost of the food gets charged to your account). And that's before we get onto Cyrano Jones and his Tribbles.

*If* there has been some kind of societal shift in which money has been abandoned, I'd argue it happens sometime in the 70 years between TUC and TNG. Quite what caused this shift I don't know, probably the change goes hand-in-glove with the invention of the replicator, something which Kirk's era did not have. But 70 years is a short enough time period for there to still be Earth humans around in Janeway's time who remember the old system.

A lot of these ideas about paying into a replicator system makes sense, but Picard and Jake's statement, keeps wiping this out.

And then Tom Paris ups the ante by stating humans did away with money in the 22nd century no less.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I would want more evidence than just the word of two or three people, really.

 

[hux]

And then Tom Paris ups the ante by stating humans did away with money in the 22nd century no less.

I've never worried about the word money. Surely both sides of the argument can agree that whenever a character has said "money no longer exists", they simply meant physical money (notes/coins)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

whenever a character has said "money no longer exists", they simply meant physical money (notes/coins)

That's always been my view, as well. Hell, it's something I wish we could do right now, today.

 

[Lance]

whenever a character has said "money no longer exists", they simply meant physical money (notes/coins)

That's always been my view, as well. Hell, it's something I wish we could do right now, today.

I remember playing a Lucasarts adventure game back in the 1980s, Zak McCraken And The Alien Mindbenders, and thought it was amazingly futuristic that the in-game commerce system was based entirely around electronic transactions. I know credit cards already existed back then, but the game made the assumption that by the late 1990s (which is when the game is set), we'd all be using systems that are much more technologically sophisticated than notes and coins in everyday daily life. Only now, with Debit Cards and Visa Paywave, are we beginning to approach anything resembling a physical-money-free society.

I guess it's just easier to maintain your country's individual territorial sovereignty when you've got something physical that says "This Money Is Our Money". And no doubt there's still some feeling that electronic money is maybe easier to scam than the real-deal. After all, I guess it would only take an enterprising computer hacker to give themselves a trillion dollars in electronic credits for the whole system to come crashing down...

(Of course, the stock market *is* this future: everything there is just people playing with numbers on a computer database.)

 

[hux]

An ex girlfriend wanted to play monopoly and she brought out the board and it was one of those new versions......with no money!!

It was all done with a pretend credit card. Madness! The whole point of monopoly is all that lovely pretend money. When you win, you throw it in the air and wave it in their faces.

Never played monopoly again

 

[T'Girl]

My main issue with the beach houses is ownership.

Owning real estate is a form of wealth, you would possess value.

Could a utopia theoretically exist

The concept of Utopia means different things to different people.

Sure, Kirk and Spock don't understand "exact change" on the bus in TVH

I watch a comedy set in Britain, a woman goes to a public restroom but returns quick to her husband and says "I need a pee." Took me a while to figure that one out.

If the bus driver told Kirk and Spock that in order to ride each of they would have to give him a pee ...

A lot of what's being used as "evidence" could just as easily be figures of speech.

So perhaps when ever they say "money" what they really mean is currency.

When the piano play wanted Riker to tip her and he said "I don't carry money," it's obvious that Riker associates money with a physical object that's carried.

")

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

An ex girlfriend wanted to play monopoly and she brought out the board and it was one of those new versions......with no money!!

It was all done with a pretend credit card. Madness! The whole point of monopoly is all that lovely pretend money. When you win, you throw it in the air and wave it in their faces.

Never played monopoly again

That doesn't sound fun at all.

We used to do Monopoly every Friday night when we were all living at home and it became a huge family event and much fighting ensued... And it was fun...

All that fake money was the whole point lol

 

[Nightdiamond]

^ I would want more evidence than just the word of two or three people, really.

The idea of working to pay the replicator is actually pretty good idea.

But Jake Picard and Paris are specific about about the idea that there is no money, so unless they're all psychotic liars, the episodes were claiming that humans don't use money anymore.

And then Tom Paris ups the ante by stating humans did away with money in the 22nd century no less.

I've never worried about the word money. Surely both sides of the argument can agree that whenever a character has said "money no longer exists", they simply meant physical money (notes/coins)

A lot of what's being used as "evidence" could just as easily be figures of speech.

So perhaps when ever they say "money" what they really mean is currency.")

But one problem is, (yet again) Nog says humans abandoned "currency based economics".

So now that leaves the question of what type of transactions are behind their economy.

Let's say a human works, then gets a number of credits deposited in his account.

He then goes to a restaurant/replicator, orders a meal, and then those credits are reduced. When he runs out, he may not be able to order that same meal again until he accumulates more again.

Or his friend asks him to loan him some credits to his account. And he does, depleting his account a bit.

If these credits can be accumulated, saved, depleted and earned again, it would have to count as money.

It's the basic definition, unless 24th century humans totally changed their definition of money.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But Jake, Picard and Paris are specific about about the idea that there is no money, so unless they're all psychotic liars, the episodes were claiming that humans don't use money anymore.

With Picard it's understandable, because he tends to speechify and be rather condescending in the process. As for Jake and Tom, well, maybe they were just misinformed.

And how could it possibly work if Earth doesn't use money but the rest of the Federation does?

 

[T'Girl]

But Jake Picard and Paris are specific about about the idea that there is no money, so unless they're all psychotic liars, the episodes were claiming that humans don't use money anymore.

The thing is what Picard actually said was money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century,
not money doesn't exist for Human,
not money doesn't exist on Earth,
not money doesn't exist in the Federation.

Picard made the blanket statement that money doesn't exist. Period.

I've never worried about the word money. Surely both sides of the argument can agree that whenever a character has said "money no longer exists", they simply meant physical money (notes/coins)

So perhaps when ever they say "money" what they really mean is currency.")

But one problem is, (yet again) Nog says humans abandoned "currency based economics".

Right, abandoned currency.

Currency is money, but money has other forms besides currency.

")

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I want to know how interstellar trade is supposed to work when other races do use a form of money while Earth doesn't.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I want to know how interstellar trade is supposed to work when other races do use a form of money while Earth doesn't.

With Picard it's understandable, because he tends to speechify and be rather condescending in the process. As for Jake and Tom, well, maybe they were just misinformed.

And how could it possibly work if Earth doesn't use money but the rest of the Federation does?

And then there are yet two more complications to add to it.

Nog agreed with Jake by complaining that it wasn't his fault humans gave up "currency based economics" (Jake asked to borrow some money from him, because as a human, he didn't have any.)

When Lily asked Picard how much it cost to build the Enterprise, Picard seemed to deny it cost anything, when he replied that money, in his time, didn't exist.

And when Lily asked if no one gets paid, Picard merely replied that accumulating wealth was no longer a motivation in human life.

At this point, Picard is implying that everything is free and people work mainly to better themselves and society. No money or financial compensation (necessary).

Can only speculate that maybe the Earth government possess currency to trade with other cultures, but the regular human population does not deal in money.

Notice that Jake was helpless to do any type of trading or financial transaction, because he was human and off world.

So the Earth government has the currency and engages in the big deals?

The thing is what Picard actually said was money doesn't exist in the twenty-fourth century,
not money doesn't exist for Human,
not money doesn't exist on Earth,
not money doesn't exist in the Federation.

Picard made the blanket statement that money doesn't exist. Period.

Yep, no arguments on that one, except perhaps he could have been referring to earth, since he was talking to a 21 century one.

Or possibly a big continuity mix up?

But one problem is, (yet again) Nog says humans abandoned "currency based economics".

Right, abandoned currency.

Currency is money, but money has other forms besides currency."

Part of the problem is, this forces everyone, to resort to semantics and figures of speech to try sort this concept out.

And it just sounds too weird; "Hey, Daniel, do you have any physical cash on you"?

"Nope, sorry, money doesn't exist in the early 21st century. Although I do have some mon--I mean units in my bank account".

 

[Ithekro]

Star Fleet officers as well as Jake Sisko do engage in barter from time to time. Give someone something they want in exchange for something you want. Without currency. Just goods.

 

[martok2112]

Wha?! A society with no monkey?!
Are ye' daft?!

We couldna hae no society wi'out monkeys! Ho' else can we prove tha' we were all descended from our fane, primate friends? Who else are we gonna gie our 'nanners to 'en 'e' gets 'ungry?

Oh....wait....you said money.

------nevah mind.