I think I could give up all my possessions too to serve on a Starship.
How would a society with no money work?
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
- Start date
I think I could give up all my possessions too to serve on a Starship.
^ But the question isn't about working on a starship. It's asking how the society as a whole is supposed to function.
Would anybody in the current day and age voluntarily join the armed forces without pay? I doubt it. But then, maybe in Star Trek's time, the people who "join up" do work without pay, on the understanding that their expenses are all taken care of (food and entertainment is basically on tap, and room and board is free). So, even supposing *that* is true and Starfleet members are all in it for the adventure of a lifetime, with no thought of the Benjamins... it still doesn't answer the question about all the other schlubs back on Earth who aren't a part of Starfleet.
To be fair, their own expenses and food may be taken care of as well. Let's assume that the whole population of the planet Earth now has no need for money, because the united government (through that wonderful invention the replicator) provides every citizen with their three square meals a day, and everybody lives rent free in studio apartments provided by same government, and that their entertainment is provided by the government via holodecks for everybody. Let's assume that. Basically, that means every human being is part of a collective, as sinister as any Borg cube. Earth in the 24th century is a welfare state on a grand scale. Their life needs are provided for by the world government, on the understanding that everybody will be good little citizens, and conform to a single ideal: "the betterment of humanity".
Basically, to bring this topic back to the OP, Earth in Star Trek's future *is* a dystopia of sorts. In the aftermath of the great atomic horror, the new world order has taken control of the citizenry; and yes, it's a nice neat little utopia where everybody lives without greed, sin, avarice, all that jazz... everybody is living the dream, but somewhere along the line there's still that niggling little detail about how a planet sustains itself in those conditions. And the canon answer provided by DS9 is that Trek's utopia simply isn't everything it seems on the surface. Perhaps to play on the universal stage, Earth needs to make some show of having overcome the aggressions of their past, so 'Joe Average' is born into the world to be a part of the unified whole... and he'll be taught, and conditioned, and controlled, to be that member of society. And there are 'people' behind the scenes who make sure that happens. To everybody.
Look at the reaction of the Enterprise crew when Wesley Crusher suddenly had a eureka moment and called them all out on their bullshit in "Journey's End". At best some of them reacted with confusion (because none of them could conceive of why anybody wouldn't simply want to be a part of this great homogenous utopian ideal), and at worst others expressed disappointment in him for not living up to their expectations. All Wes did was decided he wanted to do his own thing, but for the specifically conditioned people of Star Trek's time this was tantamount to rioting in the streets.
There is definitely something sinister about Star Trek's world.
Would anybody in the current day and age voluntarily join the armed forces without pay? I doubt it. But then, maybe in Star Trek's time, the people who "join up" do work without pay, on the understanding that their expenses are all taken care of (food and entertainment is basically on tap, and room and board is free). So, even supposing *that* is true and Starfleet members are all in it for the adventure of a lifetime, with no thought of the Benjamins... it still doesn't answer the question about all the other schlubs back on Earth who aren't a part of Starfleet.
To be fair, their own expenses and food may be taken care of as well. Let's assume that the whole population of the planet Earth now has no need for money, because the united government (through that wonderful invention the replicator) provides every citizen with their three square meals a day, and everybody lives rent free in studio apartments provided by same government, and that their entertainment is provided by the government via holodecks for everybody. Let's assume that. Basically, that means every human being is part of a collective, as sinister as any Borg cube. Earth in the 24th century is a welfare state on a grand scale. Their life needs are provided for by the world government, on the understanding that everybody will be good little citizens, and conform to a single ideal: "the betterment of humanity".
Basically, to bring this topic back to the OP, Earth in Star Trek's future *is* a dystopia of sorts. In the aftermath of the great atomic horror, the new world order has taken control of the citizenry; and yes, it's a nice neat little utopia where everybody lives without greed, sin, avarice, all that jazz... everybody is living the dream, but somewhere along the line there's still that niggling little detail about how a planet sustains itself in those conditions. And the canon answer provided by DS9 is that Trek's utopia simply isn't everything it seems on the surface. Perhaps to play on the universal stage, Earth needs to make some show of having overcome the aggressions of their past, so 'Joe Average' is born into the world to be a part of the unified whole... and he'll be taught, and conditioned, and controlled, to be that member of society. And there are 'people' behind the scenes who make sure that happens. To everybody.
Look at the reaction of the Enterprise crew when Wesley Crusher suddenly had a eureka moment and called them all out on their bullshit in "Journey's End". At best some of them reacted with confusion (because none of them could conceive of why anybody wouldn't simply want to be a part of this great homogenous utopian ideal), and at worst others expressed disappointment in him for not living up to their expectations. All Wes did was decided he wanted to do his own thing, but for the specifically conditioned people of Star Trek's time this was tantamount to rioting in the streets.
There is definitely something sinister about Star Trek's world.
Then how do you explain the Picard family wine? They put a lot of effort into making it, and they do so without replicators (which Robert had refused to allow in the home). So all that effort...for nothing? I doubt that.
Speaking of replicators: Those don't operate out of thin air. They require maintenance, energy and bulk matter to operate. So who pays for the effort required to do that? And when the government controls access to replicators...what happens when they revoke yours?
And hux has a perfectly good point: Who gets to live on the beach?
There's a lot of ominous talk in your post but I'm not really following the logic. Why does the government provide for everyone's needs, when technology makes that easy, imply a sinister collective? What exactly are people being forced to conform to? How are they being controlled?
Why not? Plenty of other trek tech is magic.
hux said:
And their salary, and what they have compared to the guy next door.
The desire to harm other people, the thrill it gives them, to put one over on society, to feel like you stand above those around you, and shear laziness of course.
Like when a thief robs a store and has the money in their hand, instead of leaving with the money they rape beat murder the clerk.
Often they record themselves doing it for the enjoyment of their friends, what fun.
Let's face it, people rarely commit crimes because they want to sent their child to good universities. If the rpelicator it designed, hardwired, not to product certain items (hard drugs, certain weapons, etc) then there would be a illegal market for someone somewhere to provide those items.
Are you going to say there are no people in the future looking for victums?
")
Again, modern capitalist society doesn't translate well to a post-scarcity democratic socialist / communist society. In the modern world if you envy your neighbor's suit you can either work to buy one just like it ("keeping up with the Jones's"), you can steal one just like it, or you can steal theirs (greed). In the Trek society you could simply replicate one.
Hopefully they would be psychologically healthy enough to just not be dicks.
Why assume that only the admirals get to live at the beach? That's rather silly assumption. First, you're assuming everyone would want to live at the beach. You're assuming that "living at the beach" means properly living as close to the sand as possible, rather than within walking distance.
You're also ignoring the ecosystem of replicators here. The matter the replicators use has to come from somewhere. there's a good chance they reclaim all the matter they can for use in replicators. Just like we purify water and treat waste and recycle garbage today. The replicator whips up your breakfast, dishes included, you eat, then put your dishes back in the replicator. When you gotta go to the waste extraction unit, that matter is reclaimed as well for use in the replicator. There's likely an air filtration system as well, pick up all that dead skin / dust floating around.
See what I mean?
This is the thing. And Star Trek even contradicts itself on this, because we end up with dicks like that chief engineer guy in "The Arsenal Of Freedom", or the various jackass Admirals who come into the series and act like cocks and push others around. And you just have to wonder, which rock in this so-called perfect human society did these guys crawl out from under?
It's amusing to me that people think that somehow making the argument of "yeah, but people would still be dicks" somehow utterly destroys the idea that not only can the species improve, but also somehow implies that the species shouldn't even try. "Nope, don't even try to make things better because there will always be dicks". Well, sure, there will always be dicks, just like there will always be trolls. But the presence of trolls isn't reason to destroy the internet. You just ignore them, don't read the comments, and get on with it. So your choices are: Shitty, exploitative society where everyone's basically on their own, so fuck 'em... and a few of the people are dicks; or, a damned-near utopian society where everyone's basic needs are fully met, and a few of the people are dicks. Sorry, but the obvious choice is option two there.
Sure, there will always be dicks, but that's no reason to think a post-scarcity society where everyone's needs are met is a bad idea. I see no reason to be so petty as to punish the species as a whole (not providing for everyone) simply because a few members of the species decide to be dicks just because they can. "Sorry everyone, Timmy's being a dick, so no one gets to eat today. Try again tomorrow." :sad trombone:
To draw from real-world politics for a second... ostensibly in US politics both the Democrats and the Republicans want the same thing, to make the country a better place. Trouble is, they fundamentally disagree on how to accomplish that same goal. No reason to assume that suddenly, simply because everyone's belly is full, bed is soft, and feet are dry that everyone will suddenly agree with each other.
I agree that there are places where Roddenberry's vision falters, and does so quite spectacularly, but it's in the "there's no strife between human" aspect that he pushed not in the "things get better" aspect. People will still disagree, that disagreement between the main characters is largely lacking makes it seem unbelievable.
Petty crime, sure. Major crime, no, probably not.
Most petty crimes are things like shoplifting and other theft. A means to satisfy basic needs that aren't being met. You don't need to steal a loaf of bread when you're hungry if you can replicate a steak at home. You don't need to steal a book to read or a movie to watch when you can call them both up on any computer in your home, of which there would be several. You want the Crown Jewels of the British Empire? Replicate them. That's not good enough... you might be overcome with greed enough to try to steal them.
You're begging the question. Modern society requires money to live, so of course no one whose needs aren't otherwise being met will volunteer to serve. However, as several posters have mentioned, if they were actually serving on a fully functional starship (replicators, holodeck, and all), then not only would the volunteer for no money, they'd sell everything they owned just to go. Why? Because their basic needs would be met and the opportunity is simply that compelling to many.
You mean all the people who have all their basic needs met with nothing to do but sit around and be bored till they find something to do with their lives and thus contribute in some way back to the society that gives them everything they could ever want and need and more? Poor bastards.
That's a leap if ever there was one.
And? So what? What's wrong with the government providing for the basic needs of its citizens? Who serves whom? Do the citizens exist to provide for the state, or does the state exist to provide for the citizens what they couldn't otherwise provide for themselves? The state builds the roads for us to use because we can't build them ourselves. Collective resources versus individual resources. You can do a lot more when resources are pooled and shared than when they're hoarded.
This simply takes the concept one step further. Rather than letting the citizens struggle, fight, starve, and die to meet their basic needs, everyone is provided for. Much less or no crime. No hunger. No homelessness. No illiteracy. Many if not most diseases cured and medical attention provided for everyone. So what are the people left to do? Be bored or try to do something interesting with their lives.
Their life needs are provided for by the world government, on the understanding that everybody will be good little citizens, and conform to a single ideal: "the betterment of humanity"...
There is definitely something sinister about Star Trek's world.
No assumption of the kind need be made. Picard's speech was about how the economy worked. "We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." You're skipping over the "better ourselves" and jumping right to a sinister conspiracy. I'm surprised you didn't mention the Reptilian Elite.
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Eh, despite all that, remove poverty and you've removed one of the biggest root causes of crime. It wouldn't disappear but the amount would be slashed fairly drastically.
(I'm going to bet most convenience store thieves giving the clerk a beating (or not) are not from wealthy or middle class backgrounds. )
You cannot simply magic away everything with the replicators. That is very dumb
As previously discussed on another thread; Garak is a tailor. Not everyone is wearing replicated crap. Some of us are wearing beautiful bespoke clothing, living in beach houses, eating non-replicated food and embracing our Starfleet status and the privilege of space exploration
Others are not
And as long as that's the case, you have an unequal society and therefore.......problems.
So they've just vanished away. It would be convenient
And that's a rather silly response (the silly response i've heard many times before and will no doubt hear again) eg People will just accept it and wont want to live on the beach. Why? because that makes it convenient for me to give an answer
I am not assuming "everyone" will want to live on the beach and wear bespoke tailored clothing etc. I am assuming that "some" will.
Not everyone can
So who gets to?
Bearing in mind, the response.....everyone, is dumb and the response....most people won't want to, is also dumb
Lot of people will want a house on the beach and tailored clothing
So who gets to?
And no doubt there's also some magic beans to wipe my arse for me
Replicators really do solve everything for some people, don't they
If everyone is walking around docile and happy with their magic bean replicators and floating anal scooping robots, why do the Maquis exist? Why does corruption exist, why do cafes exist, why do restaurants exist, why do politicians exist, why do security services exist
Why are people living such 20th century lives (despite having sex robots who clean their arses for them)
I think the question of who's living in a crime ridden slum - ie no-one - is rather more important than who gets the nicest view from the seaside.
Restaurants exist because it's a social thing that gets you out of the house and a chance to enjoy a bit of cajun culture with Old Man Sisko.
(the existence of waiters is a bit harder to fathom out. So is tailors. If a replicator can make the complex molecules of food, it should be able to do any sort of clothing easily enough).
edit: replicators are awfully convenient, but their existence is kind of a given for this discussion.
Restaurants exist because it's a social thing that gets you out of the house and a chance to enjoy a bit of cajun culture with Old Man Sisko.
(the existence of waiters is a bit harder to fathom out. So is tailors. If a replicator can make the complex molecules of food, it should be able to do any sort of clothing easily enough).
edit: replicators are awfully convenient, but their existence is kind of a given for this discussion.
^ But the question isn't about working on a starship. It's asking how the society as a whole is supposed to function.
Would anybody in the current day and age voluntarily join the armed forces without pay? I doubt it. But then, maybe in Star Trek's time, the people who "join up" do work without pay, on the understanding that their expenses are all taken care of (food and entertainment is basically on tap, and room and board is free). So, even supposing *that* is true and Starfleet members are all in it for the adventure of a lifetime, with no thought of the Benjamins... it still doesn't answer the question about all the other schlubs back on Earth who aren't a part of Starfleet.
To be fair, their own expenses and food may be taken care of as well. Let's assume that the whole population of the planet Earth now has no need for money, because the united government (through that wonderful invention the replicator) provides every citizen with their three square meals a day, and everybody lives rent free in studio apartments provided by same government, and that their entertainment is provided by the government via holodecks for everybody. Let's assume that. Basically, that means every human being is part of a collective, as sinister as any Borg cube. Earth in the 24th century is a welfare state on a grand scale. Their life needs are provided for by the world government, on the understanding that everybody will be good little citizens, and conform to a single ideal: "the betterment of humanity".
Basically, to bring this topic back to the OP, Earth in Star Trek's future *is* a dystopia of sorts. In the aftermath of the great atomic horror, the new world order has taken control of the citizenry; and yes, it's a nice neat little utopia where everybody lives without greed, sin, avarice, all that jazz... everybody is living the dream, but somewhere along the line there's still that niggling little detail about how a planet sustains itself in those conditions. And the canon answer provided by DS9 is that Trek's utopia simply isn't everything it seems on the surface. Perhaps to play on the universal stage, Earth needs to make some show of having overcome the aggressions of their past, so 'Joe Average' is born into the world to be a part of the unified whole... and he'll be taught, and conditioned, and controlled, to be that member of society. And there are 'people' behind the scenes who make sure that happens. To everybody.
Look at the reaction of the Enterprise crew when Wesley Crusher suddenly had a eureka moment and called them all out on their bullshit in "Journey's End". At best some of them reacted with confusion (because none of them could conceive of why anybody wouldn't simply want to be a part of this great homogenous utopian ideal), and at worst others expressed disappointment in him for not living up to their expectations. All Wes did was decided he wanted to do his own thing, but for the specifically conditioned people of Star Trek's time this was tantamount to rioting in the streets.
There is definitely something sinister about Star Trek's world.
Well, to be fair, we're taking an extremely simplified model of a society that was created as a framework for telling adventure tales and morality plays and trying to analyze it as if were a real society. Obviously it's going to fall short. But you're right about something sinister. My favorite conversation of all time in Star Trek is Quark and Garak sharing a root beer:
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VhSm6G7cVk[/yt]
There has been a lot written about TNG's colonialist approach to any cultural difference. There was a great article, "Cyborgs in Utopia: the Problem of Radical Difference in Star Trek the Next Generation" in the book Enterprise Zones: Critical Positions on Star Trek (woo hoo! I win the nerd award!), that looked at how TNG was super-judgy about other cultures, had a 'we are superior and will show you the error of your ways, which is that they are different from our ways' attitude toward, well, everybody, and were just as much assimilators as the Borg, which is why the Borg were imagined as the scariest possible thing - it represented an enemy that wanted to do to you exactly what you were doing to everyone else, and the battle came down to who would assimilate who into their culture.
And this one is equally interesting, because it talks about how there are lots of subtle post-colonialist critiques also floating around TNG. It even talks about Wesley's eureka moment in Journey's End: Beyond the Final Frontier: Star Trek, the Borg and the Post-Colonial
To ignore all the physical changes to the world and insist that they would fundamentally change nothing about the behavior of human beings is very dumb.
There's unequal... some people are more well-trained than others and have therefore earned greater respect in their fields and benefit from their accomplishments. Some people work harder but everyone's basic needs are met. You want something more, earn it.
Then there's unequal... every scrap of food you take from me is stealing either my ability to live by eating that food or protect myself and my family from dying by selling that food. Life is a zero sum game and every scrap of resources must be accounted for.
So every single person you've ever met in your entire life just pines away for living at the beach. That's their singular place of respite and the one and only place on the face of the Earth that they'd prefer to live? That's rather absurd to suggest.
Since it's the crux of your argument, yeah, basically you are...
"So many people will want to live at the beach that not everyone can, so how do you decide who gets to?"
Whoever wants to until there's a problem of not enough to go around, then, if it's an actual problem, sort it out.
Ah. So we're solidly at the point where you've run out of constructive things to say and will simply resort to saying anything that and anyone who disagrees with you is "dumb". How special.
I spoke too soon. Because that's a special kind of special right there.
I don't really see any dystopia in Trek society, except for a few strange quirks.
-If a human leave earth, they cant do anything that involves money in another society.
- If people are being fed by replicators, there is no need or want, and humans don't use money, does that mean everything is free?
All we see are humans stepping up to replicator and ordering things. No mention of money transactions.
- Humans who for some reason leave earth to start their own colony because they think there's something wrong with abundance--and you should work really really hard with toil and struggle to enjoy what you eat.
- Crime and Trek humans --that's another thing. If humans have access to all these luxuries, probably for free , why are they found on alien planets or whatever smuggling, stealing or committing crimes for money?
One human was trying to join the Orion Syndicate, the alien version of the mafia.
A lot of this stuff just seems odd, unless Trek actually tries to give a reasonable explanation on the subject. It never does though.
Human jerks--I have noticed that vast majority of scientists and over-achiever types are d*cks.
In almost every case, they are arrogant, obnoxious, or antisocial. Almost every one. Male or female. The one thing they all had in common was a sense of over-achievement.
It would be kind of messed up if they had all the big houses which only fed their massive egos.
Yep, earth is full of dicks yesirree. Lots of massive dicks around on earth in the 24th century.
-If a human leave earth, they cant do anything that involves money in another society.
- If people are being fed by replicators, there is no need or want, and humans don't use money, does that mean everything is free?
All we see are humans stepping up to replicator and ordering things. No mention of money transactions.
- Humans who for some reason leave earth to start their own colony because they think there's something wrong with abundance--and you should work really really hard with toil and struggle to enjoy what you eat.
- Crime and Trek humans --that's another thing. If humans have access to all these luxuries, probably for free , why are they found on alien planets or whatever smuggling, stealing or committing crimes for money?
One human was trying to join the Orion Syndicate, the alien version of the mafia.
A lot of this stuff just seems odd, unless Trek actually tries to give a reasonable explanation on the subject. It never does though.
Human jerks--I have noticed that vast majority of scientists and over-achiever types are d*cks.
In almost every case, they are arrogant, obnoxious, or antisocial. Almost every one. Male or female. The one thing they all had in common was a sense of over-achievement.
It would be kind of messed up if they had all the big houses which only fed their massive egos.
Yep, earth is full of dicks yesirree. Lots of massive dicks around on earth in the 24th century.
Back in the 1960s Trek it is mentioned that most, if not all criminals with mental issues are treated via medication. This is long before the 1980s based concepts of the 24th century Faederation start to come out. I do not recall if medical treatment for the criminally insane were mentioned at all in the Next Generation and after shows. That might just be a difference in how insanity and crime was seen by the writers between the 1960 and 1980s and style of treatments and how things were seen in mental hospitals changes a lot in those 20 years.
The fixation of living at the beach assumes everyone wants to live on the beach. Not everyone does. Those that do probably do first come first serve for locatations. By the time the Federation comes into being, most beaches on Earth either have homes on them, hotels, or or placed under some conservation act so they will still exist in centuries to come. However there are many colony world on other M-class planets that have beaches. If one wants to live on a beach, there are lots of beaches. Go find one that someone's not already living on and build a house.
There is this assumptio that people will want things and can't get them. What is stopping them from get them? Time maybe? There are more beaches in Federation space than there are people who want to live on them. Tailored goods? There are probably enough tailors to go around across the Federation or even other empires who'd be willing to make clothing for you. There are plenty of tailors willing to make custom period pieces for fun today. Artists and the like seem to be in good supply in a post-needs society because it give people something to do.
The fixation of living at the beach assumes everyone wants to live on the beach. Not everyone does. Those that do probably do first come first serve for locatations. By the time the Federation comes into being, most beaches on Earth either have homes on them, hotels, or or placed under some conservation act so they will still exist in centuries to come. However there are many colony world on other M-class planets that have beaches. If one wants to live on a beach, there are lots of beaches. Go find one that someone's not already living on and build a house.
There is this assumptio that people will want things and can't get them. What is stopping them from get them? Time maybe? There are more beaches in Federation space than there are people who want to live on them. Tailored goods? There are probably enough tailors to go around across the Federation or even other empires who'd be willing to make clothing for you. There are plenty of tailors willing to make custom period pieces for fun today. Artists and the like seem to be in good supply in a post-needs society because it give people something to do.
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Where did I "insist that they would fundamentally change nothing" sweetie. I see it's going to be one of those posts.
Strawman destroyer, activate!!
This is the argument rich people make today to justify their wealth. If the poor don't like being poor, they can work harder and get off their backsides and earn it. It's as idiotic in the context of Trek as it is today.
And how do you earn it? Earn what? Does everyone receive exactly the same standard of education. Is every profession considered to be of equal status? Who decides what is relevant to society and what is not.
Yes it is, which is why I'm so relieved not to have said any of that dear. Strawman activate!
Nope
Try again
Ah, good so it's resolved. The people who want to live on the beach are the ones that get to (I'm glad we got to an intelligent answer.....wait a cotton picking minute!)
Let me make it simple for you. There's five million houses on the beach. Five million and one people want to live in one
Your mission (should you choose to accept it) is to to tell me who gets left out and why ??
No dear, put your spectacles on and try reading it again. I clearly only suggested that two options were dumb. You're more than welcome to avoid those two options
Strawman, activate!
You didn't speak too soon. You spoke a lot gibberish.
I look forward to your next reply immensely
Who got there last? That's usually the one left out. That isn't status, that timing. Is there room to build another house? If so, they build one. If not, they go find another beach. They can still live by a beach, they just can't live by this one because they came too late. That's not the fault of an economics system nor defining status. That's time and space.
If you reject the premise that humans could ever move beyond their current conflicts and desires, you reject the premise of non-DS9 Star Trek.
And if you accept that premise, then it shouldn't be too hard to imagine.
And if you accept that premise, then it shouldn't be too hard to imagine.
Suspension of disbelief. Either you do or you don't. At a certain point it comes down to people just deciding to miss the point intentionally or just wanting to troll.
What about the Harry Mudds and Cyrano Joneses and Captain Okonas of the world? There are clearly humans in Trek's "perfect future" who do want for money, and don't simply sit on their asses and let their government give them everything for free. So, what drives these people to get out there and make a buck, when (in effect) they don't actually 'need' to? And what, exactly, are these people providing to the great and the good? Why would they strike out on their own when they already live in a society that already provides them with anything and everything they need?
Some people like the idea of money, or perhaps just trade. Some people like to pull fast ones on people for kicks. Some people do not want to be whatever is considered normal in society.
Cyrono Jones was trading all over the place in exotics.
Harry Mudd is more or less a criminal. Perhaps a troll (snake oil dealer).
Captain Okona is not known to be from Earth. His ship was sublight so he was likely a local to Omega Sagitta which is not a Federation system.
Cyrono Jones was trading all over the place in exotics.
Harry Mudd is more or less a criminal. Perhaps a troll (snake oil dealer).
Captain Okona is not known to be from Earth. His ship was sublight so he was likely a local to Omega Sagitta which is not a Federation system.
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