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How would a society with no money work?

If anything it will be worse then it is today.

With defeatist, negative sentiments like that in existence it is a good thing there are perhaps overly naive, rose-tinted glasses-wearing do-gooders like myself who won't settle for anything less than actual positive progression for humankind.

I might be one person, but I am trying my best to instill hope and progressive thinking in my 5 year old son, my academic writing and in my general everyday interaction with other people. It has to start somewhere after all.

Maybe I'm just lucky to live in a community and town that prides itself on sustainability, inclusiveness and liberal progressiveness.

Like we all know, it's easy to be a saint in paradise.

Sometimes I get the feeling that the people who jump at the first chance to claw away at others' inspiration and zest for reaching upwards into the future have their own issues and thus implicit reasons for doing so.

Then again, people who perpetually see the world through the rose-tinted glasses that I so like to wear, quite often mistake realism for negativity.

We've all got a long way to go, both on our personal and collective journeys.

Trek on, in any case.
 
Starships are big, heavy pieces of metal and technology. Someone had to design them, someone had to come up with the ideas for those designs, and you are saying they did it just because that is their passion? And for nothing? I find that very hard to believe. I'd sure as hell want compensation if I designed a ship and then it was going to be built.
Interesting example to bring up, in this case we know ship designers like Geordi and Leah Brahms do it because they have a passion for doing it and enjoy crawling around the Jeffries tubes. Tom as well builds his shuttle in Voyager on his free time.

As far as manual labor and other jobs like waiter it's harder to imagine how it would work. But I don't buy into the idea that Picard is wrong about no-money theory... it's just one of those things where we don't know exactly how it functions.
 
The sociological aspects of this idea also seems pretty odd.

The only way I can see it making sense is:

Replicator restrictions. You can only get in what you put in.

Therefore, people do work for credits, which they use to fund the replicator where they get unlimited access. Or maybe, the more credits you provide, the more you can get.

If you don't have a job or credits, the replicator will only put out 3 basic meals a day. You won't starve, and are still decently fed.

The problem with that is, it doesn't fit with Trek's ideas of earth being a wonderland, with overabundance and everyone having everything they want.

If the above is true, then Picard and troi and others were exaggerating about abundance and plenty for all.

Plus, it's just hard to explain why Data's housekeeper chose her job, unless she likes cleaning up other people's messes. Because she wants to?

Maybe it's just that 24th century people simply have no problem doing certain things without expecting compensation. They'd probably think our view of economics is primitive.
 
Money exists in the form of credits

Starfleet personnel are rewarded with status and prestige (and first choice on accommodation)

Society is as unequal as it has ever been but people are so distracted by holodecks and ample supplies of food that they have been rendered fairly docile

There is a school of thought that for Star Trek's society to exist, there has to have been (at some point in their past) an era where some kind of totalitarism was imposed on the public, in order to create generations of loyal subjects. If things such as greed have been stamped out, and they must have been if nobody strives to monitary pursuits anymore, then it asks a lot of questions about how a world gets rid of greed... aside from making it a law not to be greedy, and punishing the citizens accordingly until they learn not to be greedy anymore.

It's a bit scary, when you think about it. We only ever see Star Trek's society after it has rebuilt itself, but there are some pretty shady questions surrounding exactly what happened during that reformation period.

Somewhere deep down in it's DNA, Star Trek's Earth is run along communist principals. And we all know that communist societies revolve around the population being conditioned to their lot over generations. It's easier to keep a utopia clean and sparkly when all thought of rebellion has been wiped from the public consciousness... and the public accept that, because everybody is treated equally, and the food and entertainment are provided for them. People have given up their individuality in exchange for security and a overall happy world.
 
The issue of utopianism in Star Trek is not a straightforward as people tend to discuss. It is a key aspect of the franchise and has been worried over in a variety of forms.

In TOS, Paradise was seen as a dangerous idea which saps the individual's desire to achieve and/ or creates twisted societies. (see This Side of Paradise, A Taste of Armageddon, The Apple, The Return of the Archons, etc). At the same time, it promoted an obliquely referred to ideal of humanity no longer motivated by greed and selfishness. This was extremely of its time - in the 60s the hippie ideal was fighting against American can-do-ism. Star Trek managed to encompass both and tried to imagine how they would work in concert.

By the time of TNG, Roddenberry had fended off numerous questions from fans over the years about how this "New Humanity" worked. He shifted over to a much more utopian vision and you end up with a money-less society (in the 80s this was the clearest counter-culture dream you could present) that functions based on the assumption of cheap, clean and unlimited energy (in the 80s this was the clearest straight middle-of-the culture you could present).

Now consider, if cheap, clean, unlimited energy were actually available, it would deeply change the dynamic of the market economy and would have far-reaching consequences on human society. So, it seems to me, this is the real question at hand. Not - would people actually work for no money? In general I think a society of cheap, clean, unlimited energy would have a lot of people who would work for idealistic goals. We already see that, even in a market economy of (relatively) cheap, dirty, limited energy. But there would be a large group of people who would mostly just enjoy themselves with shallow past times as well. We also already see that. Star Trek has no interest in these people, and only shows us, honestly, the nerds of society. And I use nerd in its highest and most complimentary form (I personally never saw it as an insult - oh, I like to learn and do/ create interesting stuff? Yes, I do and thank you.)

DS9 was decidedly critical of the utopian society presented in TNG - most especially through the outsider voices of Quark, representing the proud capitalists among us, and Garak, representing the devious shadow self of Star Trek. Again, this captured the counter-culture/ conformist split in 90s culture. You see the first truly diverse set of characters, not dominated by white humans, but that diversity creates uneasiness, and eventually extreme conflict.

The other shows are weak in many ways because they lost track of how to embody this key aspect of Star Trek - capturing the times and struggling with the idea of what humanity would do if utopia was in its grasp. It's not an easy question. TNG, which seems to be dominating this discussion, was only one of Star Trek's answer to the question.

Whether a society has money or not is just a side effect of utopia. Energy is the key and human society's evolution has revolved around civilizations and then individuals being able to leverage more and more energy. Energy must be expended first to meet survival needs. Once that is accomplished (and Star Trek does put forth that this has been achieved), philosophers are very likely to tell you that humanity would then set about trying to meet Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So, Star Trek is probably right that once everyone was fed, clothed and sheltered, people would start looking for things to achieve. Money has little to do with it, since money is only a means to these much larger ends.
 
Unless there's reason beyond World War 3 and First Contact the society in Trek just can't work. Human nature just won't allow it.

You're confusing modern society and capitalism with "human nature".

Starships are big, heavy pieces of metal and technology. Someone had to design them, someone had to come up with the ideas for those designs, and you are saying they did it just because that is their passion? And for nothing? I find that very hard to believe. I'd sure as hell want compensation if I designed a ship and then it was going to be built.

You only have that impulse because your current society and economic system have drilled it into your head that work requires compensation. But consider why? Because you have to pay someone else for a place to live, for food to eat. So your time is precious, if you don't earn compensation you will be homeless and starve. If you have a place to live and your food, energy, and comfort needs are provided... there's no need for compensation.

Look at sites like deviantart. Those artists draw and photoshop their artwork mostly for the sheer pleasure of it, though some, typically the more talented and well-known can sell their wares. Consider every hobbyist who builds bird houses, paints, throws pottery, sculpts, and writes. They do so for the simple pleasure of the creative act. No reason to assume that simply vanishes in the future.

Now building them also might involve some automation but there would have been a hell of a lot of human labour there too. And when they are built people have to live and work in them and fix them when they are out in the field...

Again, look at hobbyists. Model train builders. Dollhouse makers. Cosplayers. Building a model train set is a lot of work, yet the people who build them do so simply because they want to. Because they want to build something. Or consider those who volunteer at soup kitchens or homeless shelters. They do so because they want to help their communities. Again, no reason to assume that simply goes away in the future.

I find it very hard to believe people crew these ships for nothing as well, as there must be some kind of incentive to want to work on a ship like that as crew.

Look at the number of members here. I'd put real money on the fact that at least half of them (probably way more) would jump at the chance to live and work on a starship... without pay, simply for the sheer joy and pleasure of being out there, exploring the galaxy and seeing what's in the next planetary system, and the one after that.

Picard's talk of why they did this in First Contact sounds more like bullshit.

From your capitalist perspective maybe, to me, it's poetry.
 
There is a school of thought that for Star Trek's society to exist, there has to have been (at some point in their past) an era where some kind of totalitarism was imposed on the public, in order to create generations of loyal subjects. If things such as greed have been stamped out, and they must have been if nobody strives to monitary pursuits anymore, then it asks a lot of questions about how a world gets rid of greed... aside from making it a law not to be greedy, and punishing the citizens accordingly until they learn not to be greedy anymore.

They would be silly and wrong. No need for jackboots for our species to evolve past greed. Simply feed, clothe, and house everyone and there will no longer be a reason for greed to exist. Fear of not having our basic needs met is what drives greed.

The issue of utopianism in Star Trek is not a straightforward as people tend to discuss. It is a key aspect of the franchise and has been worried over in a variety of forms.

In TOS, Paradise was seen as a dangerous idea which saps the individual's desire to achieve and/ or creates twisted societies. (see This Side of Paradise, A Taste of Armageddon, The Apple, The Return of the Archons, etc). At the same time, it promoted an obliquely referred to ideal of humanity no longer motivated by greed and selfishness. This was extremely of its time - in the 60s the hippie ideal was fighting against American can-do-ism. Star Trek managed to encompass both and tried to imagine how they would work in concert.

By the time of TNG, Roddenberry had fended off numerous questions from fans over the years about how this "New Humanity" worked. He shifted over to a much more utopian vision and you end up with a money-less society (in the 80s this was the clearest counter-culture dream you could present) that functions based on the assumption of cheap, clean and unlimited energy (in the 80s this was the clearest straight middle-of-the culture you could present).

Now consider, if cheap, clean, unlimited energy were actually available, it would deeply change the dynamic of the market economy and would have far-reaching consequences on human society. So, it seems to me, this is the real question at hand. Not - would people actually work for no money? In general I think a society of cheap, clean, unlimited energy would have a lot of people who would work for idealistic goals. We already see that, even in a market economy of (relatively) cheap, dirty, limited energy. But there would be a large group of people who would mostly just enjoy themselves with shallow past times as well. We also already see that. Star Trek has no interest in these people, and only shows us, honestly, the nerds of society. And I use nerd in its highest and most complimentary form (I personally never saw it as an insult - oh, I like to learn and do/ create interesting stuff? Yes, I do and thank you.)

DS9 was decidedly critical of the utopian society presented in TNG - most especially through the outsider voices of Quark, representing the proud capitalists among us, and Garak, representing the devious shadow self of Star Trek. Again, this captured the counter-culture/ conformist split in 90s culture. You see the first truly diverse set of characters, not dominated by white humans, but that diversity creates uneasiness, and eventually extreme conflict.

The other shows are weak in many ways because they lost track of how to embody this key aspect of Star Trek - capturing the times and struggling with the idea of what humanity would do if utopia was in its grasp. It's not an easy question. TNG, which seems to be dominating this discussion, was only one of Star Trek's answer to the question.

Whether a society has money or not is just a side effect of utopia. Energy is the key and human society's evolution has revolved around civilizations and then individuals being able to leverage more and more energy. Energy must be expended first to meet survival needs. Once that is accomplished (and Star Trek does put forth that this has been achieved), philosophers are very likely to tell you that humanity would then set about trying to meet Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So, Star Trek is probably right that once everyone was fed, clothed and sheltered, people would start looking for things to achieve. Money has little to do with it, since money is only a means to these much larger ends.

Well said.
 
Simply feed, clothe, and house everyone and there will no longer be a reason for greed to exist. Fear of not having our basic needs met is what drives greed.

Where I live, almost everyone is fed, clothed and housed. They still want more though. This isn't due to greed; it's due to an innate sense of fairness. You have a nice suit. Why don't i?

Additionally, what about people who are dicks? Why would those people suddenly just go away?

In this utopia who gets to live on the beach? Everyone?

The standard response to this particular question is usually along the lines of....."in the future people will be so happy and evolved that they'll agree to overlook the fact that admirals live in beautiful beach houses while they live further inland. Why? Just because"

The sewage workers will be happy to splodge their way through excrement while Starfleet officers explore the galaxy. Why?; because in the future, everyone is just, you know, happy and everything is perfect and let's not question it.

But I enjoy questioning it. I enjoy watching people scramble around for answers. Especially when they try to convince me that humanity will just magically become really, really nice.

Why do enjoy this? Because I'm a dick and you'll never get rid of us no matter what Star Trek might say.
 
I find it very hard to believe people crew these ships for nothing as well, as there must be some kind of incentive to want to work on a ship like that as crew.
Look at the number of members here. I'd put real money on the fact that at least half of them (probably way more) would jump at the chance to live and work on a starship... without pay, simply for the sheer joy and pleasure of being out there, exploring the galaxy and seeing what's in the next planetary system, and the one after that.

Without pay? I'll do you one better... I would sell everything I have to become an engineer aboard a starship like the Enterprise.

I can't see how I could not be happy devoting my life to something I'm passionate about whilst helping to further humanity's understanding of the universe at the same time.

Besides, with replicators and holodecks, what would I ever want money for? TNG/DS9 show us that latinum is really only used for gambling, rare goods, and interplanetary trade, but I couldn't see myself needing it.

Money is for things that are scarce. Selling an ordinary object on Earth or aboard a starship would be like selling sand in a desert.
 
Plus, it's just hard to explain why Data's housekeeper chose her job, unless she likes cleaning up other people's messes. Because she wants to?

Given the surroundings I had assumed she was a hologram.

As for the questions about were people live and dicks...there are lots of planets out there with lots of beaches. Go find one. From what we witness in Star Trek, the dicks move out to the colonies because that is were we find them most of he time. The colony of Turkana IV was likely full of them. Or they joined Star Fleet so they could order people around.
 
Simply feed, clothe, and house everyone and there will no longer be a reason for greed to exist. Fear of not having our basic needs met is what drives greed.

Where I live, almost everyone is fed, clothed and housed. They still want more though. This isn't due to greed; it's due to an innate sense of fairness. You have a nice suit. Why don't i?

Additionally, what about people who are dicks? Why would those people suddenly just go away?

In this utopia who gets to live on the beach? Everyone?

The standard response to this particular question is usually along the lines of....."in the future people will be so happy and evolved that they'll agree to overlook the fact that admirals live in beautiful beach houses while they live further inland. Why? Just because"

The sewage workers will be happy to splodge their way through excrement while Starfleet officers explore the galaxy. Why?; because in the future, everyone is just, you know, happy and everything is perfect and let's not question it.

But I enjoy questioning it. I enjoy watching people scramble around for answers. Especially when they try to convince me that humanity will just magically become really, really nice.

Why do enjoy this? Because I'm a dick and you'll never get rid of us no matter what Star Trek might say.

This is the thing. And Star Trek even contradicts itself on this, because we end up with dicks like that chief engineer guy in "The Arsenal Of Freedom", or the various jackass Admirals who come into the series and act like cocks and push others around. And you just have to wonder, which rock in this so-called perfect human society did these guys crawl out from under? :rofl:

We aren't supposed to question why Star Trek's society is perfect, we're supposed to just accept it for what it is. But really, this is where the Trek 'verse is flawed, because its hard to believe in a fictional universe without having *some* foundation for why that universe exists, or why the people in it act the way they do. It was easy for Gene R to say "Humanity has transgressed its sinful past, and everybody works for the betterment of society as a whole", but statements like that only served to highlight the odd occasions when this clearly was not the case... which naturally leads us to hypothesise that all this utopian society stuff is just a surface-layer fraud being perpetuated by humanity.
 
Of course, if we knew how it worked we might already be trying to get there. Idealistic futures are the kind we can strive to find a way to create. The futures that suck are the ones we expect to exist from our understanding of how the world seems to work in the present.

The truth will likely be someplace between the two.
 
Simply feed, clothe, and house everyone and there will no longer be a reason for greed to exist. Fear of not having our basic needs met is what drives greed.

Where I live, almost everyone is fed, clothed and housed. They still want more though. This isn't due to greed; it's due to an innate sense of fairness. You have a nice suit. Why don't i?

Additionally, what about people who are dicks? Why would those people suddenly just go away?

In this utopia who gets to live on the beach? Everyone?

The standard response to this particular question is usually along the lines of....."in the future people will be so happy and evolved that they'll agree to overlook the fact that admirals live in beautiful beach houses while they live further inland. Why? Just because"

The sewage workers will be happy to splodge their way through excrement while Starfleet officers explore the galaxy. Why?; because in the future, everyone is just, you know, happy and everything is perfect and let's not question it.

But I enjoy questioning it. I enjoy watching people scramble around for answers. Especially when they try to convince me that humanity will just magically become really, really nice.

Why do enjoy this? Because I'm a dick and you'll never get rid of us no matter what Star Trek might say.

A couple of things - you keep referencing sewage workers - we already have robots vacuuming our houses. I'm pretty sure in a couple of centuries, robots will be doing that sort of job.

Secondly, we live in a society that celebrates greed and teaches people to see their status and self-worth in possessions and access to wealth. There have been lots of other societies that have not privileged greed. Medieval Europe, for example, among the noblemen - people put down their trappings of wealth to walk hundreds of miles or more on pilgrimages for the sake of a value that is almost entirely foreign to our culture - the favor of God.

In short, greed is a cultural value. While it is certainly attached to some basic human desires (self-worth, which our society equates with wealth in many ways, and dominance over others - we are still animals after all), it is not necessarily universal or ever lasting.

This is the thing. And Star Trek even contradicts itself on this, because we end up with dicks like that chief engineer guy in "The Arsenal Of Freedom", or the various jackass Admirals who come into the series and act like cocks and push others around. And you just have to wonder, which rock in this so-called perfect human society did these guys crawl out from under? :rofl:

We aren't supposed to question why Star Trek's society is perfect, we're supposed to just accept it for what it is. But really, this is where the Trek 'verse is flawed, because its hard to believe in a fictional universe without having *some* foundation for why that universe exists, or why the people in it act the way they do. It was easy for Gene R to say "Humanity has transgressed its sinful past, and everybody works for the betterment of society as a whole", but statements like that only served to highlight the odd occasions when this clearly was not the case... which naturally leads us to hypothesise that all this utopian society stuff is just a surface-layer fraud being perpetuated by humanity.

There are very few instances where Star Trek claims that ALL human beings are lovely creatures now, only interested in the highest of noble ideals. Even when Picard says in First Contact "We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity." I didn't take that to mean he is not really claiming that ALL humans everywhere are universally dedicated to this. In fact, he seems much more to be saying those in Starfleet have dedicated themselves to this. On another occasion when Sisko remarks that "It's easy to be a saint in Paradise." he is being critical of life on Earth, making the point that humans living elsewhere deal with more complicated situations that call forth other aspects of human nature.

So, I don't think Star Trek is trying to say all the dicks have disappeared, though that is obviously a convenient strawman that folks can have loads of fun knocking down.

But it may also be likely that, in that society, true dicks are treated by excellent counselors to purge them of whatever out-of-proportion misanthropy drives them to be dicks. A little therapy can do wonders. I've seen it.
 
Don't agree at all with it but it's interesting.
No. No it is not interesting.
The observation I found the most interesting was that a large number of people we see in the Federation/Starfleet in position of high power are depicted as corrupt, evil, power hungry, self-serving, or in some other way amoral.

The "evil admiral" is basically a fixture in the show.

It is someone typing for attention by making something out of nothing.
I don't see it that way at all. It really is fascinating how the fans can all be viewing the same material and come to such widely different conclusions as to what is being shown in terms of universe building. Delightful really.

That we are presented with the idea that Earth, or prehaps the entire Federation does not use money anymore is something we are suppose to take at face value as the audiance.
But if you look at the ratio of no-money verse yes-money references within Star Trek, the yes far outweighs the no. The writers of the show lived in a society with a market economy, this is why (despite Roddenberry's wishes) money and monetary reference keep making their way into the episodes.

It's how for example a Federation member got a major bank. And how corporations within the Federation were able to own entire planets.

Janeway has trouble with money on those planets that they deal with directly.
Yet can easily tell a story of buying a lamp with Tuvok where they had to pay for it.

Riker doesn't carry money yet is willing to work for services when needed.
There's the scene in the piano bar where Riker wanted information from the piano player, she suggests that putting money in her tip jar might help her remember, Riker responds with he don't carry money, he didn't say sorry but money doesn't exist.

:)
 
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Most of the "evil admirals" of the show seem to be more into taking extremes to defend the Federation, rather than being corrupt, power hungry, or evil. Self serving probably. Several of them, especially when it comes to the likes of the Cardassians and Dominion are proven to be correct in that the Federation did need more protection and defenses against enemies that did not hold to any Federation principles. The likes of Captain Sisko and Captain Picard, who are the ones to bring these Admirals down, usually acknowledge what the Admiral was doing for the Federation, but disagreed with the method, or pointed out that they were being played by the enemy into doing their dirty work for them without having to fire a first shot.

Money in Star Trek is inconsistant. Mainly because many writers (as well as the audiance) can't image a universe without money and therefore can't write for a Federation without a specie based economy. Roddenberry could not explain it to their satifaction, and even people who follow the Venus Project and the "resource-based economy" have trouble explaining it. I don't understand it, nor do I think the Venus Project is entirely a reasonable idea considering it seems too inflexible to me.

But Star Trek presents us with a moneless society, or at least when it comes up, they emphasize it to show how, in theory, they are more socially advanced than our society was in the late 1980s and 1990s. We are even more cynical today over 25 years after The Nex Generation started to air on TV in 1987. Since then the Cold War ended. Wooo, capitalism won out over communism. And not much else changed. The world got more uncertain about what was going on. About the only major change was that the world didn't feel like it was going to destroy itself in nuclear war. By the 2000s and Star Trek's end? At the very least, the American population has become incredibly cynical. Thoughts of idealism are laughed at or booed. Anything remotely like a utopia is considered to be something like evil in nice clothing. Everything is taken in shades of grey. There are no more white hats and black hats in morality. There are rarely good guys in modern fiction, just degrees of morality. Half the time the "heroes" are just as bad as the "villains". At least in American fiction.


But that article? No. It reads like someone that watched the first season or two of the Next Generation then read the chiff notes on the rest written by someone with a cynical mindset to come to that conclusion.
 
They would be silly and wrong. No need for jackboots for our species to evolve past greed. Simply feed, clothe, and house everyone and there will no longer be a reason for greed to exist. Fear of not having our basic needs met is what drives greed.


Would this eliminate crime?

What about groups like the mafia and biker gangs and such? Would they have a place in a Trek future or would they have evolved to extinction?
 
What causes the crimes? Needs? If those are fulfilled, what need is there for the criminal to cause such an act?

Mafia and gangs may evolve into some form of social group. In some ways they already are. If the needs are met, who's going to need a loan from the mafia, and how long will they be able to keep up any protection rackets? Will drugs be a luxury item? With they be a illegal substance still? Will they be controlled substances? With their be any way to really profit from the sale of drugs? Will people have a need for drugs if they have their needs fulfilled? That brings up why the drugs are being taken today by people? Stress relief? Addiction from a young age? Recreational usage? Will there be profit in it, or will there be places to do those drugs in a controlled enviroment? Or even reliable counter-drugs?

As for biker gangs, they already are sort of a social club. Why do they exist? What is the reasons for people to join them, or even for them to continue to exist? Those are the social questions that need answering before one can speculate on the future. If any of that is based on needs, those are provided under what is presented for even mid-22nd century Earth, and even more so by 24th century Earth.

However, we know such things still exist. Turkana IV was a colony that somehow failed and resulted in gangs and rival factions that were in a state of civil war over of two decades. The Federation attempted to go there and fix the problem and was told to leave or be shot. So the Federation let them be. Turkana IV left the Federation.

Crime is not totally removed from Earth, but it is reduced to near zero. We know in the 23rd century they use to treat chronic criminal behavior like a mental illess to be corrected and could correct nearly all cases via medical means. By the end of Kirk's Five Year Mission it seems they had come up with something to "cure" even Garth of Izar and his companions, said to be the last criminally insane people in Federation space. 24th century crimes in Starfleet result in time in a penal colony for a period of time. There does not appear to be the 23rd century medical correction going on medically, but I only recall a few crimes being mentioned with the penal colonies mentions. Ensign Ro was doing time for getting people killed due to insuborination (if I recall correctly). Paris was doing time for joining the Maquis (would that be treason?). Bashir's father was going to do two years for illegal genetic engineering. Dukhat was a Prisoner of War. Eddington was being held, but I do not recall if he was in a penal colony or just a Starfleet holding cell (He would have a long list of crimes and is probably fortunate to be under Starfleet arrest rather than Cardassian). Yates did a year for supplying materials to the Maquis, but I don't recall were she was held.
 
Tom Paris is a curious one. Why are the maquis considered criminals? Didn't they just want to be separate from the Federation? I thought the Federation was all about choice and what you want?
 
There is choice and there is attacking Federation ships. It seemed they did not limit themselves to just Cardassian targets. The seperated colonies are not considered criminal, the Maquis, who I suppose could be considered a terrorist orginization, would be guilty of crimes if they attacked Federation ships or worlds, or if the Federation treaty with Cardassia specified that the Federation would need to help Cardassia against such problems in the DMZ in order to maintian the peace.
 
A couple of things - you keep referencing sewage workers - we already have robots vacuuming our houses. I'm pretty sure in a couple of centuries, robots will be doing that sort of job.

And these robots vacuum in the nooks and crannies, up on the roof (they hover?) they groom the pets, fix electrical problems, mop the floors, build the houses, take the dogs for walks, serve the drinks, fix broken windows, paint walls, unblock pipes

No, I don think so

Magic robots is not an answer

Secondly, we live in a society that celebrates greed and teaches people to see their status and self-worth in possessions and access to wealth.

First of all, I don't actually think that's true. Don't most people actually take their self-worth and happiness from love, family, relationships, adventure, creativity. Aren't you simply condemning modern day people to a stereotype simply because it suits your argument?

Secondly, status clearly still exits in Trek specifically in the form of Starfleet involvement. Wherever there is status....there is lack of status (and resentment)

There have been lots of other societies that have not privileged greed. Medieval Europe, for example, among the noblemen - people put down their trappings of wealth to walk hundreds of miles or more on pilgrimages for the sake of a value that is almost entirely foreign to our culture - the favor of God.

The past is also filled with disease, tyranny, hypocrisy and poverty. Why would we romanticise only the good?

Plus where were those noblemen when their peasant underlings were suffering? Off chasing grails in the Holy land (God botherers are usually looking for their own glory, not his)

What causes the crimes? Needs? If those are fulfilled, what need is there for the criminal to cause such an act?

Some Men
 
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