How well does the USS Kelvin fit into the Starfleet lineage?

[I-Am-Zim]

Think about this for a minute. Starfleet is vast, consisting of hundreds of planets. Do you honestly think that Starfleet could defend the entire Federation with only twelve starships?? I think not.

Of course not. But if this is about "teh canon", or what is only seen or shown on screen....

Don't forget what has been "heard" on screen. There have been numerous references to cargo vessels, transport ships, etc. throughout TOS. This is quite enough to prove that there were more than just 12 ships in the fleet.

BUT...if we are stepping outside of "teh canon", which you ARE at that point, your assumptions are NOT the only valid ones.

Exactly how am I stepping outside canon?

I think the idea that the Constitution class ship is the "most powerful" in Starfleet is ridiculous. As is the idea that the production line stopped at 12. And I'm not the only one who has made similar speculations.

I'm glad you said you "think" that. It clarifies that this is your opinion. And who ever said the production "stopped" at 12. All that was ever said is that there was that there were 12 like her in the fleet.

You are free to differ. But your assumptions are certainly no more valid than mine.

Never said they were.

 

[ST-One]

Reagardless of the catty size issues, the USS Kelvin is the first non-Enterprise starship (by that I mean a federation vessel designed specifically to *not* look like the Enterprise) that stays a good guy the whole time its on screen.

And she looks really cool too.

 

[stonester1]

Don't forget what has been "heard" on screen. There have been numerous references to cargo vessels, transport ships, etc. throughout TOS. This is quite enough to prove that there were more than just 12 ships in the fleet.

Nothing about warships.

I'm glad you said you "think" that. It clarifies that this is your opinion.

No shit.

And who ever said the production "stopped" at 12. All that was ever said is that there was that there were 12 like her in the fleet.

Again, if this is about "teh canon"...

Never said they were.

But the implication is clear, when, say, someone brings up the Star Trek technical manual and you go "WHAT? THAT'S INSANE! TEH ENTERPRISE IS CLEARLY THE MOST STUPENDOUS SHIP IN TOS EVAH! HERETIC!!!!"

 

[ST-One]

You are not making a lot of sense, I'm afraid.
Why is so 'wrong' that the Kelvin is be larger than the TOS-Enterprise?
The aircraft carrier Enterprise is larger than many much more modern US military vessels. Does that make these smaller but more modern vessels any less 'impressive'?

Because according to Zim, they are both "cruisers", which always get bigger in Trek.

I see.
That's why the newer Miranda Class is larger than the older Constitution Class in TWoK, right?

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Because you ST09 haters continually criticize fans for being unable to help inject their opinion into any criticism even when it isn't warranted, yet you guys continually do the same.

Problem is, I do it nicely without calling names or attempting to insult my fellow fans. Unlike some on this board.

I'm not better than anyone.

Nope, just a whole lot more pretentious.

Oh you've got room to talk.

Of course it does. To design piece of technology that's supposed to be 200-years into our future, and then make it look even more primitive than the already horribly outdated look of the TOS Enterprise would detract volumes from the believability of the design.

In your opinion, maybe. I don't think it would have made that much of a difference.

When was it established what kind of ship the Kelvis was??

We don't know. So I assume it is a cruiser. You can assume what you like.

Oh, okay. I was just curious to know if you actually had any good reason why the Kelvin's size is problematic, but apparently not.

That's fine (not sarcasm).

I've given plenty of good reasons. All you've said is that there's no problem. You've given no valid reasons for why the Kelvin's size isn't a problem.

Neither is yours. Apparently.

My opinions aren't baseless assumptions. [/QUOTE]

Neither are mine. Where do you get "baseless" from? Your assumptions are based on - its in the movie so it's okay - and that's about it.

You are not making a lot of sense, I'm afraid.
Why is so 'wrong' that the Kelvin is be larger than the TOS-Enterprise?
The aircraft carrier Enterprise is larger than many much more modern US military vessels. Does that make these smaller but more modern vessels any less 'impressive'?

Because according to Zim, they are both "cruisers", which always get bigger in Trek.

Absolutely correct. According to Star Trek continuity.

Don't forget what has been "heard" on screen. There have been numerous references to cargo vessels, transport ships, etc. throughout TOS. This is quite enough to prove that there were more than just 12 ships in the fleet.

Nothing about warships.

I'm glad you said you "think" that. It clarifies that this is your opinion.

No shit.

And who ever said the production "stopped" at 12. All that was ever said is that there was that there were 12 like her in the fleet.

Again, if this is about "teh canon"...

Never said they were.

But the implication is clear, when, say, someone brings up the Star Trek technical manual and you go "WHAT? THAT'S INSANE! TEH ENTERPRISE IS CLEARLY THE MOST STUPENDOUS SHIP IN TOS EVAH! HERETIC!!!!"

Show me where I said that. I want to see a quote before you start putting words in my mouth. Stop being an ass and at least attempt to have an intellegent discussion without resorting to insults and defamatory remarks to try to get your point across. Thank you.

All I said was that as much as I love Franz Joseph's designs (they are awesome), they are not accruate nor are they canon. And thus can't be used as a valid excuse for the Kelvin.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

I see.
That's why the newer Miranda Class is larger than the older Constitution Class in TWoK, right?

Okay. Don't get that one.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Yet they chose to not care. That's the problem I have with this whole thing. They just didn't care.

I've seen this stated over and over again by other posters: "They [the current filmmakers] don't care." Or some variant thereof. It's a false premise.

Abrams and company did care about the movie they were making. They cared a great deal about making the movie they wanted to make. Just because "they didn't care" about the same things as some of the fan-based critics doesn't mean they were apathetic, vindictive, or capricious in their aesthetic choices.

 

[stonester1]

Show me where I said that. I want to see a quote before you start putting words in my mouth.

"Largest"..."Most powerful"...please, stop me when I get off track.

Stop being an ass and at least attempt to have an intellegent discussion without resorting to insults and defamatory remarks to try to get your point across. Thank you.

No, at that point, that's just sarcasm fused with some hyperbole.

But I apologize. I'll try to be more "intellegent".

All I said was that as much as I love Franz Joseph's designs (they are awesome), they are not accruate nor are they canon. And thus can't be used as a valid excuse for the Kelvin.

Since it's a different timeline, it's utterly irrelevent. But there is no reason, in canon, from either time line, to believe that the Enterprise is the "largest, most powerful", or my more colorful way of putting the same thing.

 

[ST-One]

I see.
That's why the newer Miranda Class is larger than the older Constitution Class in TWoK, right?

Okay. Don't get that one.

Both these Classes are 'cruisers'.
But, even though the Reliant is of a newer class than the Enterprise she's still smaller.
So, even in Star Trek the cruisers don't always get larger as time progresses.

 

[Londo]

I assumed that the kelvin was about the same size as Enterprise, I dont see how crew compliment is a good measure for size because its amazing how little space a lot of people can be crammed into. Trends for crew compliment are that they get smaller to do the same tasks as technology improves, i see no reason this not to fit into the trek universe. The Intrepid class only has 150 crew and is seen doing what would be considered classic cruiser duties, or duties detached from the fleet.
On the other hand, I dont like the idea of 800 crew escaping in the shown shuttle craft, nor do I like fitting those shuttles into the suttlebay, but shuttles are always an issue: IIRC the Delta flyer is too big for Voyagers shuttlebay.
Size also shouldnt be a measure of capability; little Nova class is seen kicking ass in Endgame. So a big but mediocre Kelvin is fine by me.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

First of all, we nothing of the Kelvin's background or mission other than investigating the lightning storm in space near the Romulan border. If you think that 800 people are a lot for a ship for the Kelvin's size, nearly 3000 people serve on the present day Nimitz class carriers. The Nimitz class are very small in comparison.

Does the Kelvin fit in with Starfleet's design ethics? Yes, because we have only seen very few examples of TOS Starfleet. If you take out the Remastered TOS, then we have only seen one, that is the Constitution.

If we took an Ticonderoga Class Aegis Cruiser and said that was the only way a US Naval vessel can be seen or designed, then of course you would think that the Freedom Class LCS or the Arleigh Burke Class DDG or the Virginia Class SSN or the USS Enterprise CVN-65 would not be apart of the naval design ethic. Unless you actually see enough of Starfleet's TOS designs (outside of Non-Canon work), then you have no basis to say that the Kelvin is from a different universe because it only bears a passing resemblance to TOS Enterprise and frankly to adhere what the writer's say here, while dismissing them on the other topics are hypocritical.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

I see.
That's why the newer Miranda Class is larger than the older Constitution Class in TWoK, right?

Okay. Don't get that one.

Both these Classes are 'cruisers'.
But, even though the Reliant is of a newer class than the Enterprise she's still smaller.
So, even in Star Trek the cruisers don't always get larger as time progresses.

I sortof see what you are saying. But, in essense, the Miranda isn't "smaller" per se. It's just a Connie without a neck or stardrive. The saucer is the same size as are the warp nacelles. It's just a different "class" of ship.

 

[stonester1]

It only has one nacelle.

Oh NOES, TEH CANON!

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Okay. Don't get that one.

Both these Classes are 'cruisers'.
But, even though the Reliant is of a newer class than the Enterprise she's still smaller.
So, even in Star Trek the cruisers don't always get larger as time progresses.

I sortof see what you are saying. But, in essense, the Miranda isn't "smaller" per se. It's just a Connie without a neck or stardrive. The saucer is the same size as are the warp nacelles. It's just a different "class" of ship.

Actually The Miranda class saucer looks begger than the Constitution class saucer.

 

[muzzleflash]

Problem is, I do it nicely without calling names or attempting to insult my fellow fans. Unlike some on this board.

I believe you. My only beef is your "warning" which made you sound like a douche.

In your opinion, maybe. I don't think it would have made that much of a difference.

My point is that they had a valid reason for making the Kelvin look the way it did, which simply happen to differ from yours. That doesn't mean they don't care.

I've given plenty of good reasons. All you've said is that there's no problem. You've given no valid reasons for why the Kelvin's size isn't a problem.

Neither are mine. Where do you get "baseless" from? Your assumptions are based on - its in the movie so it's okay - and that's about it.

Your only reason was that the Kelvin, since it had no proper designation, should be assumed to be a cruiser (this part is baseless), and according to Trek's visual continuity, cruisers should increase in size.

My argument is that, as we have seen throughout Trek and real life, sizes of machinery vary greatly depending on function and circumstance. The same applies for the Kelvin. It is simply an instance of a very large ship. I.e. common sense tells us that things can be as big as small as we can make them. Common sense does not tell us that the Kelvin is a cruiser and that cruisers should get bigger.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Okay, I'll bite.

Zim's basic assumption is based on how it doesn't fit. Perhaps we need to observe that there are many possibilities that can easily explain how the Kelvin technology developed in to the Enterprise technology, to put it crudely.

I offer the following reasonable explanations to address the percieved disparity:

- In the 2230s, starships became larger, and more independent, and required larger spaceframes to house all of the technology/people/resources necessary.
- Over the next 10-15 years, technology became more advanced, meaning more automation, and smaller components. This, ships got smaller.
- In that period, with smaller ships, there were able to hide components behind panels etc.
- With more automation, Engineering became simpler in appearance, with less of the conduits/pipes/etc. constantly exposed.
- With more automation and smaller, more versitile ships, fewer officers and crew were required to run the ship.

If one has a little imagination, this is actually very plausible.

 

[C.E. Evans]

It looks older than Trek XI's Enterprise. That's the only lineage that matters.

Bingo!

 

[Warped9]

You don't even have to get that complicated. The Uglyprise is already shown as significantly larger than the TOS Enterprise so the Kelvin really isn't that out of whack. It fits within the context of the nu universe.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

You don't even have to get that complicated. The Uglyprise is already shown as significantly larger than the TOS Enterprise so the Kelvin really isn't that out of whack. It fits within the context of the nu universe.

Yes, but the Kelvin is from the Prime Universe.

 

[Warped9]

You don't even have to get that complicated. The Uglyprise is already shown as significantly larger than the TOS Enterprise so the Kelvin really isn't that out of whack. It fits within the context of the nu universe.

Yes, but the Kelvin is from the Prime Universe.

No, it's not. It exists in an alternate reality, an alternate universe. Don't let the word "timeline" that these writers like to throw around fool you.