How well does the USS Kelvin fit into the Starfleet lineage?

[I-Am-Zim]

Assuming that the type of ship the Kelvin is isn't supposted to be bigger then a cruiser

We don't know what type of ship the Kelvin is. As far as the movie is concerned, it looks like a variation of a Connnie with one nacelle. That's it. Until something is seen/heard on screen denoting what the type is, it will simply be a cruiser. And thus, according to crew and shuttle compliment, too large to fit in the original continuity as far as I am concerned. It fits just fine in the abramsverse where nothing makes sense. And that's fine for the movie, but if they had really wanted us to believe that the Kelvin was actually part of the TOS universe, they could have at least put forth a little effort to make it resemble something from that era. Yet they chose to not care. That's the problem I have with this whole thing. They just didn't care.

 

[Warped9]

Yet they chose to not care. That's the problem I have with this whole thing. They just didn't care.

This is it in a nutshell. The basis of the vast majority of criticism. It isn't that it's a reboot or even that it isn't closer to TOS. It's that it lacks any credibility and consistency within the context of itself.

 

[stonester1]

[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Star_Fleet_Technical_Manual

I have one of the original 1973 copies, and I believe Rodenberry considered this "canon". "Flagship" status isn't necessarily a status denoting "most powerful ship", it is a political designation.

Further, in this book, there is shown a "dreadnought" design with three warp nacelles and dimensions bigger than the Constitution class CRUISER (not usually the biggest ship in a fleet, most often workhorse).

"12 like it in the fleet" only means that the design was relatively new and 12 of it's kind had been built up to that point. Doesn't mean the production line had ended.

Your point? I'm talking about what was seen on screen, thus considered canon. Not what is in a book that is canonically questionable. The Constitution was, unfortunately, the only Starfleet ship we saw in TOS.

So...from that we are to suppose, based on what we actually SAW, that Starfleet was REALLY supposed to have only twelve ships in it, or twelve fighting ships, or whatever?

Really?

 

[Warped9]

[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Star_Fleet_Technical_Manual

I have one of the original 1973 copies, and I believe Rodenberry considered this "canon". "Flagship" status isn't necessarily a status denoting "most powerful ship", it is a political designation.

Further, in this book, there is shown a "dreadnought" design with three warp nacelles and dimensions bigger than the Constitution class CRUISER (not usually the biggest ship in a fleet, most often workhorse).

"12 like it in the fleet" only means that the design was relatively new and 12 of it's kind had been built up to that point. Doesn't mean the production line had ended.

Your point? I'm talking about what was seen on screen, thus considered canon. Not what is in a book that is canonically questionable. The Constitution was, unfortunately, the only Starfleet ship we saw in TOS.

So...from that we are to suppose, based on what we actually SAW, that Starfleet was REALLY supposed to have only twelve ships in it, or twelve fighting ships, or whatever?

Really?

 

[stonester1]

Your point? I'm talking about what was seen on screen, thus considered canon. Not what is in a book that is canonically questionable. The Constitution was, unfortunately, the only Starfleet ship we saw in TOS.

So...from that we are to suppose, based on what we actually SAW, that Starfleet was REALLY supposed to have only twelve ships in it, or twelve fighting ships, or whatever?

Really?

Back at you.

 

[muzzleflash]

of course, the Uglyprise.

You guys just can't help yourselves, can you?

Now, bear in mind that this is my personal opinion. So I expect plenty of insults and smart-ass remarks from the movie's fans. Therefore, to the STXI fans, pleast don't proceed under the false impression that your pot shots will in any way hurt my feelings.

It would help your case to drop the "I'm better than you because I'm so not mainstream", attitude.

Anyways, I agree with you that the design of the Kelvin appears to be much more advanced than the designs of the TOS and TMP era. However, as was stated in the "Is Enterprise canon" thread, the problem is that our current state of technology has in many ways surpassed TOS's expectations of the time. Like Enterprise, I think it was the right decision to design the appearance of these pre-TOS ships to modern standards even if it means breaking continuity.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

[So...from that we are to suppose, based on what we actually SAW, that Starfleet was REALLY supposed to have only twelve ships in it, or twelve fighting ships, or whatever?

Really?

Whuh???

I never said that. Where did you get that from??

There were 12 Constitution class cruisers. Quite probably the largest, most powerful, fastest, and most advanced ship class in the fleet. Not the only ships in the fleet. That makes no sense and I have no idea how you could possibly have inferred that from my posts. Of course there were other ship classes. The Constitution was just the most impressive.

 

[stonester1]

You guys just can't help yourselves, can you?

No, they can't.

It would help your case to drop the "I'm better than you because I'm so not mainstream", attitude.

Truly.

. Like Enterprise, I think it was the right decision to design the appearance of these pre-TOS ships to modern standards even if it means breaking continuity.

Like I said, I would have prefered they kept TOS Ent's exterior, as I believe it has been proven various times to hold up. But they changed it.

I don't see it as something to get twisted over.

 

[muzzleflash]

Your point? I'm talking about what was seen on screen, thus considered canon. Not what is in a book that is canonically questionable. The Constitution was, unfortunately, the only Starfleet ship we saw in TOS. Later, we saw several more throughout the movies and TNG-era. My point is that as far as what was seen on screen from 1966 to pre-STXI, cruisers such as the various ships named Enterprise have gotten progressively larger as time and technology progresses. Therefore, it is logical to infer that the sheer size of the Kelvin makes it improbable at best that it would have logically fit into the existing Star Trek universe.

I would take Star Trek ship designations (cruiser, battleship, etc.) with a grain of salt. They don't seem to actually mean anything.

Assuming it does, when was it ever established that the Kelvin is a cruiser? You can't simply assume it's a cruiser on no basis and use that as an instrument in your argument.

 

[stonester1]

[
I never said that. Where did you get that from??

There were 12 Constitution class cruisers.

Full stop. This is all you get as far as "teh canon" goes. If we are going to stick STRICTLY to "teh holy canon"...

Quite probably the largest, most powerful, fastest, and most advanced ship class in the fleet. Not the only ships in the fleet. That makes no sense and I have no idea how you could possibly have inferred that from my posts. Of course there were other ship classes. The Constitution was just the most impressive.

Because this is about "teh canon". Everything past the first sentence are ASSUMPTIONS on your part. You are perfectly willing to accept assumptions, if they are YOURS, or ones you agree with.

Someone else says something else, you retreat to "teh canon".

Hypocrite.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

of course, the Uglyprise.

You guys just can't help yourselves, can you?

Nope, "we guys" can't. The Abramsprise is ugly. Why not call a pig a pig.

Now, bear in mind that this is my personal opinion. So I expect plenty of insults and smart-ass remarks from the movie's fans. Therefore, to the STXI fans, pleast don't proceed under the false impression that your pot shots will in any way hurt my feelings.

It would help your case to drop the "I'm better than you because I'm so not mainstream", attitude.

I'm not better than anyone. I'm simply giving the STXI fans advanced warning that insulting me won't cause me any undue stress.

Anyways, I agree with you that the design of the Kelvin appears to be much more advanced than the designs of the TOS and TMP era. However, as was stated in the "Is Enterprise canon" thread, the problem is that our current state of technology has in many ways surpassed TOS's expectations of the time. Like Enterprise, I think it was the right decision to design the appearance of these pre-TOS ships to modern standards even if it means breaking continuity.

Our current state of technology doesn't matter. We're talking about a fictional universe. So what if the tech is a little behind? Maybe Earth technology progressed slower in the Star Trek universe than it did in the real world? All I'm saying is that they could have done better. I expected more.

 

[muzzleflash]

And we realize this is your opinion. It's just not a very well-formed one.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

I would take Star Trek ship designations (cruiser, battleship, etc.) with a grain of salt. They don't seem to actually mean anything.

Assuming it does, when was it ever established that the Kelvin is a cruiser? You can't simply assume it's a cruiser on no basis and use that as an instrument in your argument.

When was it established what kind of ship the Kelvis was??

We don't know. So I assume it is a cruiser. You can assume what you like.

[
I never said that. Where did you get that from??

There were 12 Constitution class cruisers.

Full stop. This is all you get as far as "teh canon" goes. If we are going to stick STRICTLY to "teh holy canon"...

Quite probably the largest, most powerful, fastest, and most advanced ship class in the fleet. Not the only ships in the fleet. That makes no sense and I have no idea how you could possibly have inferred that from my posts. Of course there were other ship classes. The Constitution was just the most impressive.

Because this is about "teh canon". Everything past the first sentence are ASSUMPTIONS on your part. You are perfectly willing to accept assumptions, if they are YOURS, or ones you agree with.

Someone else says something else, you retreat to "teh canon".

Hypocrite.

Think about this for a minute. Starfleet is vast, consisting of hundreds of planets. Do you honestly think that Starfleet could defend the entire Federation with only twelve starships?? I think not.

And we realize this is your opinion. It's just not a very well-formed one.

Neither is yours. Apparently.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Hypocrite.

Right back atcha Butthead!

 

[stonester1]

Think about this for a minute. Starfleet is vast, consisting of hundreds of planets. Do you honestly think that Starfleet could defend the entire Federation with only twelve starships?? I think not.

Of course not. But if this is about "teh canon", or what is only seen or shown on screen...

BUT...if we are stepping outside of "teh canon", which you ARE at that point, your assumptions are NOT the only valid ones.

I think the idea that the Constitution class ship is the "most powerful" in Starfleet is ridiculous. As is the idea that the production line stopped at 12. And I'm not the only one who has made similar speculations.

You are free to differ. But your assumptions are certainly no more valid than mine.

 

[muzzleflash]

Nope, "we guys" can't. The Abramsprise is ugly. Why not call a pig a pig.

Because you ST09 haters continually criticize fans for being unable to help inject their opinion into any criticism even when it isn't warranted, yet you guys continually do the same.

I'm not better than anyone.

Nope, just a whole lot more pretentious.

Our current state of technology doesn't matter. We're talking about a fictional universe. So what if the tech is a little behind? Maybe Earth technology progressed slower in the Star Trek universe than it did in the real world? All I'm saying is that they could have done better. I expected more.

Of course it does. To design piece of technology that's supposed to be 200-years into our future, and then make it look even more primitive than the already horribly outdated look of the TOS Enterprise would detract volumes from the believability of the design.

 

[ST-One]

Within the established Star Trek universe, as seen on screen from 1966 to pre-STXI, yes. Especially with larger flagship-type vessels. Of course there will always be the exceptions such as the Akira and Oberth. Battleships and heavy cruisers have always increased in size over time in the Star Trek universe. This has been established on screen.

Ah, ship-sizes always increase unless they don't.

I cited smaller ships. Akira, Oberth, Constellation, etc. Heavy cruisers such as Constitution, Excelsior, Ambassador, and Galaxy classes have always gotten progressively larger in the Star Trek universe as time and tech progressed.



See above.

The master of rebuttal. The criticism regarding the Kelvin is well founded. It's yet another thing lacking credibility in a film replete with nonsense.

So you have proof that the Constitution was the largest vessel at the time?

Do you have proof that is wasn't?

The Constitution class was the flagship of the Federation. Kirk mentioned on several occasions that it was a very significant vessel in that there were only 12 like her in the fleet. This gives the logical impression that the Constitution class is an impressive vessel. Not that it is the only class in the fleet, but that it is quite probably the largest, most powerful, most advanced ship class in the fleet.

You are not making a lot of sense, I'm afraid.
Why is so 'wrong' that the Kelvin is be larger than the TOS-Enterprise?
The aircraft carrier Enterprise is larger than many much more modern US military vessels. Does that make these smaller but more modern vessels any less 'impressive'?

 

[Sabataage]

Reagardless of the catty size issues, the USS Kelvin is the first non-Enterprise starship (by that I mean a federation vessel designed specifically to *not* look like the Enterprise) that stays a good guy the whole time its on screen.

The Reliant got hijacked by Khan's people five minutes after being introduced. After TWoK the Miranda-class kind of becomes the butt monkey of the Federation, often getting attacked first or being found adrift in space with its crew dead from some unknown force. Though eventually commanded by Sulu, The Excelsior was introduced as the Enterprise's replacement and was therefore about as well liked as that blonde-haired-preppy-douchebag from so many 80's movies. And thanks to Scotty, it ultimately gets its comeuppance for thinking it was so superior. While the Excelsior gets some PR help in TUC, it gets shit on once again in its last on screen outing as the NCC-1701-B in Generations. The Oberth was so forgetable its barely worth mentioning.
The Kelvin on the other hand lives and dies as a hero. That legacy, I predict, will continue. I have a feeling that anytime the writers want the audience to root for ship that's not the Enterprise, they'll use the Kelvin.

 

[muzzleflash]

When was it established what kind of ship the Kelvis was??

We don't know. So I assume it is a cruiser. You can assume what you like.

Oh, okay. I was just curious to know if you actually had any good reason why the Kelvin's size is problematic, but apparently not.

That's fine (not sarcasm).

Neither is yours. Apparently.

My opinions aren't baseless assumptions.

 

[muzzleflash]

You are not making a lot of sense, I'm afraid.
Why is so 'wrong' that the Kelvin is be larger than the TOS-Enterprise?
The aircraft carrier Enterprise is larger than many much more modern US military vessels. Does that make these smaller but more modern vessels any less 'impressive'?

Because according to Zim, they are both "cruisers", which always get bigger in Trek.