How we deal with death

[Therin of Andor]

I'm also very grateful to the people who have taken the time and effort to look for the quoted interviews and throw them in my face.

Thank you. As simple as using Google.

It's not the first time, you know.

Not the first time that someone corrected your ill-informed rants with conflicting evidence?

I guess that malice is one of the most common qualities among Trek fans.

Then I'm in very good company. With poor ol' Jennifer Lien, whom you had previously praised for trying, as you claimed, to defend her poor, changed character in "Fury" - and yet, here she is, in an interview made just after the episode was filmed, praising the role, and the rare opportunity to do something challenging and different. Not more of the same ol' same old, which is what you've repeatedly said you wanted of the producers for the return of Kes.

However, I see no reason to change my opinions in this case or regret anything I've written before.

Including your newly-conceived malice towards Ms Lien, as per your above post?

 

[LaBarre]

Wow, Lynx!

That's just crazy stuff - and so uncalled for.

I've kinda enjoyed your posts to date - there's something compelling about a tried and true fan determined to make his case come hell or high water and consistently doing so over the course of several threads to date - but this is beneath you.

 

[Lynx]

Ooooops!

Now that was like kicking a beehive.

"Newly-conceived malice"? No, I've seen the quoted comments before and I've commented them before as well.

I think that Jennifer Lien is a great actress, I think that she did a terrific job as portraying Kes for three years, I think that it was rude and unnecessary to fire her in the first place and I think that the criticizm aimed at her for her acting skills from some fans and the malice showed from some fans as well when it comes to the firing of her and the annihilation of the character is rude and unfair. Nothing will change that.

And yes, I do think she's a lovely person as well. People I know who have met her confirms that.

I simply just disagree with her choice to do the episode "Fury", her comments about it and her too-forgiving attitude to those who fired her in the first place, that's all.

And the fact that she did approve to do the episode and her comments about it won't change my opinion about the episode. It was downright crap and almost all of the Kes fans (and Jennifer Lien fans as well) hates it.

 

[LaBarre]

But Lynx, now backtracking with a "I simply just disagree with her choice to do the episode "Fury", her comments about it and her too-forgiving attitude to those who fired her in the first place, that's all."

...is so NOT what you said. What you said was:

"I don't give a d*** about Jennifer Lien's opinions in that case. She really did let her fans down when she decided to participate in that crap and she did lose a lot of points in my book because of that. Besides that, crawling for those who fired her in the first place is an act of cowardice which I can't accept.

Not to menton that all interviews with her are following the same pattern, like "everything is so great and everyybody is so nice".

Look, I'm a relative newbie here (as you can tell from my inability to do anything constructive with multiple quotes) and I've made some mistakes and said some things I'd have liked the opportunity to explain or even apologise for (but the thread closed before I could manage it), so I'm not trying to pile in on you.

But at the best, the above is disingeneous.

 

[Therin of Andor]

almost all of the Kes fans (and Jennifer Lien fans as well) hates it.

Balderdash. You can't represent "almost all" Kes and Lien fans, just as you can't represent "almost all" Janeway fans.

When you make outlandish claims about the writers and performers of "Fury", you have to be prepared for people to refute your arguments with facts.

Now that was like kicking a beehive.

You kicked your own beehive, mate. And got stung.

I don't give a d*** about Jennifer Lien's opinions in that case. She really did let her fans down when she decided to participate in that crap and she did lose a lot of points in my book because of that. Besides that, crawling for those who fired her in the first place is an act of cowardice which I can't accept.

Yep. Malice. For the actress whose work you claim to love.

 

[LightningStorm]

I guess that malice is one of the most common qualities among Trek fans.

It's time to dial it back here. We get that you are the world's biggest Kes fan and that you hated Fury, but accusing someone of malice for quoting facts is akin to calling someone a troll and is itself, trolling. Please stop.

It's people like you who give the rest of us bad names - you put the fan in Fanatic.

That post got you riled up, understandably, but this is not the way to respond to it. Remember comment on the "post, not the poster."

 

[Paris]

Hey Lynx, I was just wondering what else with Jennifer do you enjoy. IIRC, she was in American History X and she's done some cartoon voice work, but other than those plus Voyager I can't really remember her in anything else...

Maybe she did "Fury" because she needed the work and she was overly nice to those d-bags (Berman & Braga) because they were getting her work.

I'm not trying to start anything here...I'm just trying to find out why you've taken her comments so personally. People in Hollywood say nice things that they don't mean all the time. It's kind of the thing to do. Non A-list actors have to make sure they don't piss people off or the work dries up...

 

[Lynx]

Well, this whole thing has been blown up out of proportion.

LaBarre wrote:

But Lynx, now backtracking with a "I simply just disagree with her choice to do the episode "Fury", her comments about it and her too-forgiving attitude to those who fired her in the first place, that's all."

...is so NOT what you said. What you said was:

"I don't give a d*** about Jennifer Lien's opinions in that case. She really did let her fans down when she decided to participate in that crap and she did lose a lot of points in my book because of that. Besides that, crawling for those who fired her in the first place is an act of cowardice which I can't accept.

Not to menton that all interviews with her are following the same pattern, like "everything is so great and everyybody is so nice".

Look, I'm a relative newbie here (as you can tell from my inability to do anything constructive with multiple quotes) and I've made some mistakes and said some things I'd have liked the opportunity to explain or even apologise for (but the thread closed before I could manage it), so I'm not trying to pile in on you.

But at the best, the above is disingeneous.

The point is that my fandom for the character and the actress as well and my appreciation for her work during three years of Voyager hasn't changed at all. The oly thing I did was to state that I disagree with her decision to do "Fury" and her attitude to those who fired her. Honestly, I can be critical to those I admire and like. If a favorite rock band of mine does a crap record and a crap gig, then I call it a crap record or a crap gig. The same for celebrities who comes up with statements I can't support, no matter what.

OK, my comment may have looked a bit rude (or if you did find it more rude than it was supposed to be) but I guess that I was a bit p***ed off for once again having those statements of her thrown into my face. As I wrote, it has happened before.

And you don't have to apologize for being a newbie or for stating your opinion. You did have some points in what you wrote.


Therin of Andor wrote:

Balderdash. You can't represent "almost all" Kes and Lien fans, just as you can't represent "almost all" Janeway fans.

When you make outlandish claims about the writers and performers of "Fury", you have to be prepared for people to refute your arguments with facts.

I have had a lot of contacts with Kes/Lien fans over the years and I haven't encountered one single fan of the character/actress who have stated that he/she liked or appreciated that episode. A few people have stated that it was nice to see Jennifer back on screen again but no one have ever stated that "Fury" was a good episode which they really liked. So I guess that I can speak for the Kes fans here when I state that almost all of us hates that episode.

And there was no malice at all involved in my statement, at least not for Jennifer Lien. Malice is when people state that they were happy to see her "leave" in season 4 and as you know, I have a different opinion about that.


LightningStorm wrote:

It's time to dial it back here. We get that you are the world's biggest Kes fan and that you hated Fury, but accusing someone of malice for quoting facts is akin to calling someone a troll and is itself, trolling. Please stop.

No, I'm not accusing anyone for trolling. I consider Therin of Andor a good person to debate with, even if I do disagree with some of his statements. It's just the fact that I've been in this situation before with people throwing in those quotes as to say "look here, Jennifer Lien likes that episode so what do you say now?" I guess I'm a bit touchy over the fact that she did so willingly participate in the destruction of her character. As for Kes fans, I know at least two persons who are bigger fans of Kes than I am!


Paris wrote:

Hey Lynx, I was just wondering what else with Jennifer do you enjoy. IIRC, she was in American History X and she's done some cartoon voice work, but other than those plus Voyager I can't really remember her in anything else...

Maybe she did "Fury" because she needed the work and she was overly nice to those d-bags (Berman & Braga) because they were getting her work.

I'm not trying to start anything here...I'm just trying to find out why you've taken her comments so personally. People in Hollywood say nice things that they don't mean all the time. It's kind of the thing to do. Non A-list actors have to make sure they don't piss people off or the work dries up...

The only thing I've seen Jennifer in except for Voyager is "American History X" and she was excellent in that movie.

She was in a movie called "SLC Punk" too but I haven't had the opportunity to watch that one.

You may be right about her doing "Fury" because of money and she is a friendly person who don't want to argue. As for me taking it personally, well as I wrote before, I'm a bit touchy over the fact that she did so willingly participate in the destruction of her character and I've had that thrown in my face too many times when I criticize "Fury".

But I also gave her credit for persuading them to change the end of the story (that comment seems to have been forgotten in this commotion).

As for people in Hollywood saying nice things, well that's the truth and it's not only Hollywood. Since I did work for a firm which was close to the entertaining business once, I've seen and heard people who actually hate each other coming up with downright BS officially about how much they appreciate to work with each other.

I can aso tell you that a friend of mine did come up with a story about Kes, written after Fury" which was meant to restore the character after the damage made to the character in "Fury". he did send it to Paramount (of course they didn't want it) but he did also send it to Jennifer Lien who replied that she really liked the story. I guess she wouldn't had had any objections to participate in an episode in which the character was restored back to normal either.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Well, this whole thing has been blown up out of proportion.

Ironic and understated, all at the same time. Nicely done!

 

[rfmcdpei]

You may be right about her doing "Fury" because of money and she is a friendly person who don't want to argue. As for me taking it personally, well as I wrote before, I'm a bit touchy over the fact that she did so willingly participate in the destruction of her character and I've had that thrown in my face too many times when I criticize "Fury".

But I also gave her credit for persuading them to change the end of the story (that comment seems to have been forgotten in this commotion).

[. . .]

I can aso tell you that a friend of mine did come up with a story about Kes, written after Fury" which was meant to restore the character after the damage made to the character in "Fury". he did send it to Paramount (of course they didn't want it) but he did also send it to Jennifer Lien who replied that she really liked the story. I guess she wouldn't had had any objections to participate in an episode in which the character was restored back to normal either.

But why would that episode be filmed? Kes' narrative arc on the show was finished with "Fury"; the whole episode was designed as a capstone for the character.

Also, what's normal? Kes' evolution might not be what one would have liked, but it was a possible outcome.

 

[Lynx]

You may be right about her doing "Fury" because of money and she is a friendly person who don't want to argue. As for me taking it personally, well as I wrote before, I'm a bit touchy over the fact that she did so willingly participate in the destruction of her character and I've had that thrown in my face too many times when I criticize "Fury".

But I also gave her credit for persuading them to change the end of the story (that comment seems to have been forgotten in this commotion).

[. . .]

I can aso tell you that a friend of mine did come up with a story about Kes, written after Fury" which was meant to restore the character after the damage made to the character in "Fury". he did send it to Paramount (of course they didn't want it) but he did also send it to Jennifer Lien who replied that she really liked the story. I guess she wouldn't had had any objections to participate in an episode in which the character was restored back to normal either.

But why would that episode be filmed? Kes' narrative arc on the show was finished with "Fury"; the whole episode was designed as a capstone for the character.

Also, what's normal? Kes' evolution might not be what one would have liked, but it was a possible outcome.

Why wouldn't it have been filmed. That story was ten times better than the "Fury" crap and would have restored the chartacter instead of confirming the disgusting and unnecessary character destruction which we had in "Fury".

We didn't need that capst......sorry, tombstone. What we wanted and needed was an episode where the damage made to the character could be undone in a realistic way.

 

[Paris]

But wouldn't that seem like false hope? TV shows have a limited budget, and to waste another episode on Kes after the shitty outing in "Fury" (the episode an not Ms. Lien) on top of the fact that they had no plans on ever bringing her back onto the show in even a semi-regular role (a la Nog), would be irresponsible. The show would be better suited developing another character instead of one whose story was finished. Finished in the PTB eyes, at least.

 

[Lynx]

But wouldn't that seem like false hope? TV shows have a limited budget, and to waste another episode on Kes after the shitty outing in "Fury" (the episode an not Ms. Lien) on top of the fact that they had no plans on ever bringing her back onto the show in even a semi-regular role (a la Nog), would be irresponsible. The show would be better suited developing another character instead of one whose story was finished. Finished in the PTB eyes, at least.

Let us look at it this way: There was a letter-campaign going for having Kes re-instated as a regular character. Instead of doingt that, those in charge did choose to make an episode which totally destroyed the character and insulted the fans of the character.

When those in charge saw the bad reaction from most fans (not only the Kes fans) to the episode and there were people sending in suggestions for how to restore the character, wouldn't it have been a nice gesture to bring back and restore the character for maybe one or two episodes at the end?

 

[Trek]

Let us look at it this way: There was a letter-campaign going for having Kes re-instated as a regular character. Instead of doingt that, those in charge did choose to make an episode which totally destroyed the character and insulted the fans of the character.

When those in charge saw the bad reaction from most fans (not only the Kes fans) to the episode and there were people sending in suggestions for how to restore the character, wouldn't it have been a nice gesture to bring back and restore the character for maybe one or two episodes at the end?

In my experience (and I've been part of several of these), letter campaigns have little to no effect except in a very few exceptions (Star Trek, Jericho) and only then it's to get the series re-enstated, never a character.

The negative reaction to the episode is actually likely to have had the opposite reaction to the one you want. Why would they make another episode focusing on a guest character when the last one was so badly received?

Also episodes don't generally get made to make nice gestures, they get made to tell stories. However on the odd occasion when they are done for the fans they don't turn out well (just look at "These are the Voyages", B&B's love letter to Trek fans everywhere. **shudder**)

 

[Geoff Thorne]

Well, this whole thing has been blown up out of proportion.

Ironic and understated, all at the same time. Nicely done!

You really are an evil man.

 

[Therin of Andor]

In my experience (and I've been part of several of these), letter campaigns have little to no effect except in a very few exceptions (Star Trek, Jericho) and only then it's to get the series re-enstated, never a character.

There was a sizable letter-writing campaign to get Gates McFadden back onto TNG as Dr Crusher, but when the campaigners confronted Gene Roddenberry about their efforts (at a big convention) he uttered his infamous quote:

"If I listened to the fans, Star Trek would be shit."

Gates was reinstated, but only because Diana Muldaur (Dr Pulaski), who didn't have a five-year contract, suddenly announced she was planning to miss the first three episodes of TNG's third season, so she could guest star in the "Return of McCloud" reunion telemovie. It proved to be more efficient to re-hire Gates than to recast for three episodes, and set a precedent for Diana Muldaur to take future leaves of absence.

 

[Paris]

...wouldn't it have been a nice gesture to bring back and restore the character for maybe one or two episodes at the end?

Sorry Lynx, but I have to agree with Trek. Since "Fury" was so poorly received, I think making another episode or two with a character that they really had no interest in, would have been a bad idea. It would have looked like they were trying to cover up the mistake they made with "Fury", and would have been an utter waste of time, especially if they did it to just satiate the need of a small part of the fan base. I know you don't consider the letter writing Kes fans to be a small part, but in reality, they really are. If she was that beloved by Voyagers fans, then the PTB would never have fired her.

 

[Trek]

...wouldn't it have been a nice gesture to bring back and restore the character for maybe one or two episodes at the end?

Sorry Lynx, but I have to agree with Trek. Since "Fury" was so poorly received, I think making another episode or two with a character that they really had no interest in, would have been a bad idea. It would have looked like they were trying to cover up the mistake they made with "Fury", and would have been an utter waste of time, especially if they did it to just satiate the need of a small part of the fan base. I know you don't consider the letter writing Kes fans to be a small part, but in reality, they really are. If she was that beloved by Voyagers fans, then the PTB would never have fired her.

Yeah. In reality you have to drown a studio in nuts to get anywhere these days.

 

[Paris]

Yeah. In reality you have to drown a studio in nuts to get anywhere these days.

...mmm...double entendres

 

[JB2005]

You're all forgetting the one Trek letter writing campaign that did work...Trek fans got a Space Shuttle renamed!