How we deal with death

[Lynx]

I want to address this as it comes up a lot and not just about Kes.

Kes was replaced by 7 of 9. This was done for cynical and OBVIOUS reasons having to do with sex appeal and TV ratings. When an actor is let go from or quits a show, especially a crime or adventure show, they are often brought back one more time to "kill them off." Also done for ratings. Don't ask me about the psychology of that because it's crazy. If you think about it you can find many examples of this phenomenon.

Setting aside Ms. Ryan's acting abilities (she's not bad at all) the difference between nordic, statuesque, busty 7 and Kes is clear. 7 walked around in a corset, catsuit and heels for God's sake, and, without looking, I guarantee you will find there was a corresponding ratings spike. Fair? Nope. Not hardly. But also not based on spite.

At no time do fan letters, even massive campaigns, engender a spiteful reaction such that the writers sit down and say, "All right, you want Kes back, FINE. See how you like THIS!"

It just doesn't work that way.

Deliberately or not, it was a spit in the face of the Kes fans.

And I'm still curious about why a character who they had done everything to erase from the history of the series (she was never mentioned after being kicked out in the first place and the Hydroponics Bay in which she did grow flowers was transformed into some Dracula's den for the Borg who were brought on board. Obviously they had no need for food anymore) all of a sudden is brought back- only to be destroyed in the worst possible way and it just happened to coincide with a letter campaign to bring back the character as a permanent main character again. Not to mention that they actually planned to kill off the character as a not so nice gesture to the Kes fans but Jennifer Lien made them change the end of the story.

Too many coincidents here.

As for kicked out main characters brought back to be killed off, I've only seen that in one case and it was in some police series called "Pacific Blue" where one of the original characters who had eft in he middle of the series was brought back and killed off. The episode was absolutely horrible but I don't think that there were any letter campaign going about that character.

As for the spike in ratings, there was such a spike when Seven arrived but it faded quickly and the ratings for the rest of the series were lower than for seasons 1-3.

So you honestly believe that they spent all that time (conceiving, vetting and writing the story) and money (one million per ep, minimum and likely more in this case for the ep-specific FX) simply to be spiteful towards what amounts to a tiny fraction of their total audience?

No. That never happened. I'm sorry. It just didn't.

People make cynical decisions all the time, largely to enrich themselves, but they don't do things on that scale to spite people they don't know and will never meet.

I'm not trying to burst your bubble (well, not in a mean-spirited way) but isn't it just possible that the people who invented Kes just wanted to tell one last story about her? Or that they liked the actress and felt bad about the cynical decision they'd made to cut her and wanted to do something nice?

Why assume the basest motivation?

If they wanted to do something nice, then why come up with such a horrible and insulting episode? They must have realized that the fans, especially those who were staging a letter campaign to have the character re-instated would never appreciate such an episode.

As I see it, they had two options, to bring back the character as the fans wanted and not bring her back at all. They did choose option 3 which insulted and enraged almost every fan of the character.

 

[Therin of Andor]

If they wanted to do something nice, then why come up with such a horrible and insulting episode? They must have realized that the fans, especially those who were staging a letter campaign to have the character re-instated would never appreciate such an episode.

I thought the point of "Fury" was to give the actress some scenes she could really sink her teeth into. That opening scene, where Kes is old and angry, blowing the bulkheads as she storms through the ship, is an amazing teaser! Plus she got to play young Kes again.

 

[Thrawn]

^ Indeed, often when actors that have moved on come back to a show, they're given hugely dramatic and deep roles as a thank you. Actors love having scenes like that, grief and tragedy; it gives them a chance to show off. And when you're sending highlight reels to potential casting situations, having roles like that filmed helps you out considerably, too.

 

[Geoff Thorne]

Deliberately or not, it was a spit in the face of the Kes fans.

And I'm still curious about why a character who they had done everything to erase from the history of the series (she was never mentioned after being kicked out in the first place and the Hydroponics Bay in which she did grow flowers was transformed into some Dracula's den for the Borg who were brought on board. Obviously they had no need for food anymore) all of a sudden is brought back- only to be destroyed in the worst possible way and it just happened to coincide with a letter campaign to bring back the character as a permanent main character again. Not to mention that they actually planned to kill off the character as a not so nice gesture to the Kes fans but Jennifer Lien made them change the end of the story.

Too many coincidents here.

As for kicked out main characters brought back to be killed off, I've only seen that in one case and it was in some police series called "Pacific Blue" where one of the original characters who had eft in he middle of the series was brought back and killed off. The episode was absolutely horrible but I don't think that there were any letter campaign going about that character.

As for the spike in ratings, there was such a spike when Seven arrived but it faded quickly and the ratings for the rest of the series were lower than for seasons 1-3.

So you honestly believe that they spent all that time (conceiving, vetting and writing the story) and money (one million per ep, minimum and likely more in this case for the ep-specific FX) simply to be spiteful towards what amounts to a tiny fraction of their total audience?

No. That never happened. I'm sorry. It just didn't.

People make cynical decisions all the time, largely to enrich themselves, but they don't do things on that scale to spite people they don't know and will never meet.

I'm not trying to burst your bubble (well, not in a mean-spirited way) but isn't it just possible that the people who invented Kes just wanted to tell one last story about her? Or that they liked the actress and felt bad about the cynical decision they'd made to cut her and wanted to do something nice?

Why assume the basest motivation?

If they wanted to do something nice, then why come up with such a horrible and insulting episode? They must have realized that the fans, especially those who were staging a letter campaign to have the character re-instated would never appreciate such an episode.

As I see it, they had two options, to bring back the character as the fans wanted and not bring her back at all. They did choose option 3 which insulted and enraged almost every fan of the character.

Hmm.

I dunno. I've known a lot of writers in my short time. They are rapacious. Cantankerous. Litigious. Often inebriated. Sometimes psychotic. Definitely odd but I have never, not one time ever, met a writer or group of writers who put any time, money or energy into screwing over any portion of their fan base.

In my first novel I managed to irritate a couple of people when I killed off a character. I have been pulled up short by KRAD, MACK, PAD, M & M , GARAMET, DAYTON & KEVIN, CLB and hosts of prose, TV and film writers when they've killed off a character I had invested in. JK ROWLING. TOLKIEN (why, Boromir, why?).

It happens. The motivation is not to piss off fans. I promise.

 

[Therin of Andor]

TOLKIEN (why, Boromir, why?).

And three of the casualties from the battle at the end of "The Hobbit". I was sobbin'. First novel that ever made me cry. Powerful stuff at 16, hiding in my room. But an unforgettable reading experience.

 

[JB2005]

TOLKIEN (why, Boromir, why?).

And three of the casualties from the battle at the end of "The Hobbit". I was sobbin'. First novel that ever made me cry. Powerful stuff at 16, hiding in my room. But an unforgettable reading experience.

At age 16 I, along with most of the people I know, were dealing with the death of one of our best friends, after going through that wittering about the death of Janeway seems so empty.

EDIT: Sorry just realised that that might be misconstrued as a knock at Therin - last thing I want to do, a well written death is a very powerful thing which affects me deeply, it was just the age/parallel that made me think.

 

[Lynx]

So you honestly believe that they spent all that time (conceiving, vetting and writing the story) and money (one million per ep, minimum and likely more in this case for the ep-specific FX) simply to be spiteful towards what amounts to a tiny fraction of their total audience?

No. That never happened. I'm sorry. It just didn't.

People make cynical decisions all the time, largely to enrich themselves, but they don't do things on that scale to spite people they don't know and will never meet.

I'm not trying to burst your bubble (well, not in a mean-spirited way) but isn't it just possible that the people who invented Kes just wanted to tell one last story about her? Or that they liked the actress and felt bad about the cynical decision they'd made to cut her and wanted to do something nice?

Why assume the basest motivation?

If they wanted to do something nice, then why come up with such a horrible and insulting episode? They must have realized that the fans, especially those who were staging a letter campaign to have the character re-instated would never appreciate such an episode.

As I see it, they had two options, to bring back the character as the fans wanted and not bring her back at all. They did choose option 3 which insulted and enraged almost every fan of the character.

Hmm.

I dunno. I've known a lot of writers in my short time. They are rapacious. Cantankerous. Litigious. Often inebriated. Sometimes psychotic. Definitely odd but I have never, not one time ever, met a writer or group of writers who put any time, money or energy into screwing over any portion of their fan base.

In my first novel I managed to irritate a couple of people when I killed off a character. I have been pulled up short by KRAD, MACK, PAD, M & M , GARAMET, DAYTON & KEVIN, CLB and hosts of prose, TV and film writers when they've killed off a character I had invested in. JK ROWLING. TOLKIEN (why, Boromir, why?).

It happens. The motivation is not to piss off fans. I promise.

Well, I'm not so sure about Braga and his gang. I read an interview with Braga on some website or a magazine where he told the story about how he, Fuller and Michael Taylor had spent Christmas Eve coming up with that horrible "Fury" story (I guess that it was the original story where Kes was killed off at the end). I could sense a certain malice in the comments. They must have been aware of the fact that the episode would make the fans of the character angry and upset, especially those fans who had sent in letters to have the character re-instated as a regular main character again.

And after the episode was aired and the negative reactions from not only the ardent Kes fans became visible in more letters to Paramount and comments on different forums, what happened? Not a single apology, not an attempt to bring back the character to undone the damage made in that episode despite the fact that people were sending in suggestions and stories up to the last minute of the show. The only thing we got was some lame comment from Braga that "the episode didn't turn out the way we wanted". Of course it didn't! Ther weren't allowed to kill off the character as they have planned from the beginning and p*** off the fans even more!

And this problem is still unsolved. The only thing so far is a decent try (but nothing more) to restore the character and write around the idiocy in the TV episode in the "String Theory" books.

To wrap up this discussion and et back on the Trek Literature track again, it's one of the reasons why the "Janeway affair" annoys me. I was hoping that the Voyager Relaunch should be something better than the TV series and that some of the stupidities from the TV series could be corrected. And here we have the same, unnecessary annoying character destruction again.

 

[Geoff Thorne]

If they wanted to do something nice, then why come up with such a horrible and insulting episode? They must have realized that the fans, especially those who were staging a letter campaign to have the character re-instated would never appreciate such an episode.

As I see it, they had two options, to bring back the character as the fans wanted and not bring her back at all. They did choose option 3 which insulted and enraged almost every fan of the character.

Hmm.

I dunno. I've known a lot of writers in my short time. They are rapacious. Cantankerous. Litigious. Often inebriated. Sometimes psychotic. Definitely odd but I have never, not one time ever, met a writer or group of writers who put any time, money or energy into screwing over any portion of their fan base.

In my first novel I managed to irritate a couple of people when I killed off a character. I have been pulled up short by KRAD, MACK, PAD, M & M , GARAMET, DAYTON & KEVIN, CLB and hosts of prose, TV and film writers when they've killed off a character I had invested in. JK ROWLING. TOLKIEN (why, Boromir, why?).

It happens. The motivation is not to piss off fans. I promise.

Well, I'm not so sure about Braga and his gang. I read an interview with Braga on some website or a magazine where he told the story about how he, Fuller and Michael Taylor had spent Christmas Eve coming up with that horrible "Fury" story (I guess that it was the original story where Kes was killed off at the end). I could sense a certain malice in the comments. They must have been aware of the fact that the episode would make the fans of the character angry and upset, especially those fans who had sent in letters to have the character re-instated as a regular main character again.

And after the episode was aired and the negative reactions from not only the ardent Kes fans became visible in more letters to Paramount and comments on different forums, what happened? Not a single apology, not an attempt to bring back the character to undone the damage made in that episode despite the fact that people were sending in suggestions and stories up to the last minute of the show. The only thing we got was some lame comment from Braga that "the episode didn't turn out the way we wanted". Of course it didn't! Ther weren't allowed to kill off the character as they have planned from the beginning and p*** off the fans even more!

And this problem is still unsolved. The only thing so far is a decent try (but nothing more) to restore the character and write around the idiocy in the TV episode in the "String Theory" books.

To wrap up this discussion and et back on the Trek Literature track again, it's one of the reasons why the "Janeway affair" annoys me. I was hoping that the Voyager Relaunch should be something better than the TV series and that some of the stupidities from the TV series could be corrected. And here we have the same, unnecessary annoying character destruction again.

They don't owe anyone an apology.

 

[Paris]

Here we go again

 

[William Leisner]

I read an interview with Braga on some website or a magazine where he told the story about how he, Fuller and Michael Taylor had spent Christmas Eve coming up with that horrible "Fury" story (I guess that it was the original story where Kes was killed off at the end). I could sense a certain malice in the comments.

Did he twirl his mustache whilst cackling maniacally?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I read an interview with Braga on some website or a magazine where he told the story about how he, Fuller and Michael Taylor had spent Christmas Eve coming up with that horrible "Fury" story (I guess that it was the original story where Kes was killed off at the end). I could sense a certain malice in the comments.

Did he twirl his mustache whilst cackling maniacally?

And did lightening strike in the background or is that just with David Mack.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'm not so sure about Braga and his gang. I read an interview with Braga on some website or a magazine where he told the story about how he, Fuller and Michael Taylor had spent Christmas Eve coming up with that horrible "Fury" story

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/111625.html

Excerpts:

"Jennifer admitted that it was very exciting to come back and commented on how she dealt with returning to a show that she used to appear on a weekly basis...

"... Jennifer was concerned how Kes would be brought back. Executive Producers Rick Berman and Brannon Braga came up with a story line that brought the character back, but with a different angle. It was the task of staff writers Bryan Fuller and Michael Taylor to write the teleplay from the story idea. Jennifer was adamant that the fate of Kes was handled with great care, so some of the plot line was changed. 'I had a discussion with the writers about the original script and we all came to a conclusion that we were happy with,' she states with a sigh of relief!

"... One thing Jennifer wanted to avoid was to come back as the same Kes that viewers were used to. 'Bringing back the character in a unique way was what I wanted from the start,' she explains. 'I didn't want Kes to be completely Kes.' If the character came back to the show as the same person as when she left, there would be no impact. In the case of 'Fury', the impact is there from the start beginning with Kes' dramatic first scene. 'It's pretty cool how I make my entrance. I make a lot of noise!'"

 

[Sci]

I'm not so sure about Braga and his gang. I read an interview with Braga on some website or a magazine where he told the story about how he, Fuller and Michael Taylor had spent Christmas Eve coming up with that horrible "Fury" story

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/111625.html

Excerpts:

"Jennifer admitted that it was very exciting to come back and commented on how she dealt with returning to a show that she used to appear on a weekly basis...

"... Jennifer was concerned how Kes would be brought back. Executive Producers Rick Berman and Brannon Braga came up with a story line that brought the character back, but with a different angle. It was the task of staff writers Bryan Fuller and Michael Taylor to write the teleplay from the story idea. Jennifer was adamant that the fate of Kes was handled with great care, so some of the plot line was changed. 'I had a discussion with the writers about the original script and we all came to a conclusion that we were happy with,' she states with a sigh of relief!

"... One thing Jennifer wanted to avoid was to come back as the same Kes that viewers were used to. 'Bringing back the character in a unique way was what I wanted from the start,' she explains. 'I didn't want Kes to be completely Kes.' If the character came back to the show as the same person as when she left, there would be no impact. In the case of 'Fury', the impact is there from the start beginning with Kes' dramatic first scene. 'It's pretty cool how I make my entrance. I make a lot of noise!'"

That's just full of malice, there. Reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaal menacing, those insidious writers. You can just tell how much they want to hurt their viewers' feelings.

 

[Thrawn]

I'm not so sure about Braga and his gang. I read an interview with Braga on some website or a magazine where he told the story about how he, Fuller and Michael Taylor had spent Christmas Eve coming up with that horrible "Fury" story

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/111625.html

Excerpts:

"Jennifer admitted that it was very exciting to come back and commented on how she dealt with returning to a show that she used to appear on a weekly basis...

"... Jennifer was concerned how Kes would be brought back. Executive Producers Rick Berman and Brannon Braga came up with a story line that brought the character back, but with a different angle. It was the task of staff writers Bryan Fuller and Michael Taylor to write the teleplay from the story idea. Jennifer was adamant that the fate of Kes was handled with great care, so some of the plot line was changed. 'I had a discussion with the writers about the original script and we all came to a conclusion that we were happy with,' she states with a sigh of relief!

"... One thing Jennifer wanted to avoid was to come back as the same Kes that viewers were used to. 'Bringing back the character in a unique way was what I wanted from the start,' she explains. 'I didn't want Kes to be completely Kes.' If the character came back to the show as the same person as when she left, there would be no impact. In the case of 'Fury', the impact is there from the start beginning with Kes' dramatic first scene. 'It's pretty cool how I make my entrance. I make a lot of noise!'"

That's just full of malice, there. Reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaal menacing, those insidious writers. You can just tell how much they want to hurt their viewers' feelings.

Nah. Clearly, the actress hated her character and all of the fans thereof also.

I mean, if she did like her own character, she sure had a funny way of showing it!!

(Since this is often mistaken on messageboards, I add a disclaimer: This post is sarcastic.)

 

[Paris]

^SARCASM??? What's that?

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ I teach classes. There are still a few seats available for the beginner's course.

 

[Lynx]

I'm not so sure about Braga and his gang. I read an interview with Braga on some website or a magazine where he told the story about how he, Fuller and Michael Taylor had spent Christmas Eve coming up with that horrible "Fury" story

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/111625.html

Excerpts:

"Jennifer admitted that it was very exciting to come back and commented on how she dealt with returning to a show that she used to appear on a weekly basis...

"... Jennifer was concerned how Kes would be brought back. Executive Producers Rick Berman and Brannon Braga came up with a story line that brought the character back, but with a different angle. It was the task of staff writers Bryan Fuller and Michael Taylor to write the teleplay from the story idea. Jennifer was adamant that the fate of Kes was handled with great care, so some of the plot line was changed. 'I had a discussion with the writers about the original script and we all came to a conclusion that we were happy with,' she states with a sigh of relief!

"... One thing Jennifer wanted to avoid was to come back as the same Kes that viewers were used to. 'Bringing back the character in a unique way was what I wanted from the start,' she explains. 'I didn't want Kes to be completely Kes.' If the character came back to the show as the same person as when she left, there would be no impact. In the case of 'Fury', the impact is there from the start beginning with Kes' dramatic first scene. 'It's pretty cool how I make my entrance. I make a lot of noise!'"

I don't give a d*** about Jennifer Lien's opinions in that case. She really did let her fans down when she decided to participate in that crap and she did lose a lot of points in my book because of that. Besides that, crawling for those who fired her in the first place is an act of cowardice which I can't accept.

Not to menton that all interviews with her are following the same pattern, like "everything is so great and everyybody is so nice".

However, she did at least persuade the good, caring people in charge not to kill off the character as they had planned to do from the start. That gives her some credit in this case.

I'm also very grateful to the people who have taken the time and effort to look for the quoted interviews and throw them in my face. It's not the first time, you know.

I guess that malice is one of the most common qualities among Trek fans.

However, I see no reason to change my opinions in this case or regret anything I've written before.

 

[Sci]

I'm not so sure about Braga and his gang. I read an interview with Braga on some website or a magazine where he told the story about how he, Fuller and Michael Taylor had spent Christmas Eve coming up with that horrible "Fury" story

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/111625.html

Excerpts:

"Jennifer admitted that it was very exciting to come back and commented on how she dealt with returning to a show that she used to appear on a weekly basis...

"... Jennifer was concerned how Kes would be brought back. Executive Producers Rick Berman and Brannon Braga came up with a story line that brought the character back, but with a different angle. It was the task of staff writers Bryan Fuller and Michael Taylor to write the teleplay from the story idea. Jennifer was adamant that the fate of Kes was handled with great care, so some of the plot line was changed. 'I had a discussion with the writers about the original script and we all came to a conclusion that we were happy with,' she states with a sigh of relief!

"... One thing Jennifer wanted to avoid was to come back as the same Kes that viewers were used to. 'Bringing back the character in a unique way was what I wanted from the start,' she explains. 'I didn't want Kes to be completely Kes.' If the character came back to the show as the same person as when she left, there would be no impact. In the case of 'Fury', the impact is there from the start beginning with Kes' dramatic first scene. 'It's pretty cool how I make my entrance. I make a lot of noise!'"

I don't give a d*** about Jennifer Lien's opinions in that case. She really did let her fans down when she decided to participate in that crap and she did lose a lot of points in my book because of that. Besides that, crawling for those who fired her in the first place is an act of cowardice which I can't accept.

Not to menton that all interviews with her are following the same pattern, like "everything is so great and everyybody is so nice".

However, she did at least persuade the good, caring people in charge not to kill off the character as they had planned to do from the start. That gives her some credit in this case.

I'm also very grateful to the people who have taken the time and effort to look for the quoted interviews and throw them in my face. It's not the first time, you know.

I guess that malice is one of the most common qualities among Trek fans.

However, I see no reason to change my opinions in this case or regret anything I've written before.

Translation: "My opinion of 'Fury' is the only valid one, the people who made it made it out of malice, no evidence that they didn't make that episode out of malice is valid, and anyone who points to the interviews that I cited in characterizing the creators' motivations as malicious and uses those interviews to indicate a lack of malice is in fact being malicious to me because I AM A VICTIM."

 

[Geoff Thorne]

I'm not so sure about Braga and his gang. I read an interview with Braga on some website or a magazine where he told the story about how he, Fuller and Michael Taylor had spent Christmas Eve coming up with that horrible "Fury" story

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/111625.html

Excerpts:

"Jennifer admitted that it was very exciting to come back and commented on how she dealt with returning to a show that she used to appear on a weekly basis...

"... Jennifer was concerned how Kes would be brought back. Executive Producers Rick Berman and Brannon Braga came up with a story line that brought the character back, but with a different angle. It was the task of staff writers Bryan Fuller and Michael Taylor to write the teleplay from the story idea. Jennifer was adamant that the fate of Kes was handled with great care, so some of the plot line was changed. 'I had a discussion with the writers about the original script and we all came to a conclusion that we were happy with,' she states with a sigh of relief!

"... One thing Jennifer wanted to avoid was to come back as the same Kes that viewers were used to. 'Bringing back the character in a unique way was what I wanted from the start,' she explains. 'I didn't want Kes to be completely Kes.' If the character came back to the show as the same person as when she left, there would be no impact. In the case of 'Fury', the impact is there from the start beginning with Kes' dramatic first scene. 'It's pretty cool how I make my entrance. I make a lot of noise!'"

I don't give a d*** about Jennifer Lien's opinions in that case. She really did let her fans down when she decided to participate in that crap and she did lose a lot of points in my book because of that. Besides that, crawling for those who fired her in the first place is an act of cowardice which I can't accept.

Not to menton that all interviews with her are following the same pattern, like "everything is so great and everyybody is so nice".

However, she did at least persuade the good, caring people in charge not to kill off the character as they had planned to do from the start. That gives her some credit in this case.

I'm also very grateful to the people who have taken the time and effort to look for the quoted interviews and throw them in my face. It's not the first time, you know.

I guess that malice is one of the most common qualities among Trek fans.

However, I see no reason to change my opinions in this case or regret anything I've written before.

That's a little harsh, no? She's an ACTOR. She was in other things and, as much as Kes was an interesting flavor to the VOYAGER buffet, isn't it just possible she, the actor, I mean, was simply bored and happy to move on? She was happy to come back. She spent years of her life working with those writers and that cast. Isn't it possible she's telling the truth when she says there were no hard feelings? Was she required to stay in the part forever if that's what her fans wanted? No wonder Doyle tried to kill Holmes. Sheesh!

I'm not trying to make a war out of this but, really, these are actual people we're talking about. They have lives and motivations that have absolutely nothing to do with Star Trek or even their own contributions to it.

A coward? That's not fair at all.

Really. I'm sure she's a lovely person.

 

[JoeZhang]

I don't give a d*** about Jennifer Lien's opinions in that case. She really did let her fans down when she decided to participate in that crap and she did lose a lot of points in my book because of that. Besides that, crawling for those who fired her in the first place is an act of cowardice which I can't accept.

.

It's people like you who give the rest of us bad names - you put the fan in Fanatic.