Will this tune be on your next collaborative Filk album
Be careful what you wish for.....
How we deal with death
- Thread starter Leaf
- Start date
Be careful what you wish for.....
Will this tune be on your next collaborative Filk album
Be careful what you wish for.....
Well, here I have to agree. Just look at us Kes fans who wanted the character back and sent letters to Paramount about wanting Kes re-instated as a regular character again.
Look what we got for that! "Fury" and the total destruction of the character.
^ Really? I hadn't heard about any of that. Ever.
I don't think that the message of Destiny was so much that good and hope will prevail no matter how dire the situation as it was, "Even in the most desperate of circumstances, it is important that we not let go of our fundamental morality."
I disagree. For a hell of a lot of people in Destiny, hope did not prevail and things did not work out in the end. Millions of Caeliar died, the entire crew of Columbia were either killed or imprisoned, and 63 billion people were exterminated by the Borg. To argue that Destiny's message is that it will all work out in the end is, I think, a distortion of the events it depicts.
I mean, it worked out from a Federation-wide POV, yeah. But it certainly didn't work for the species that the Borg wiped out, nor did it all work out for the Borg's numerous victims over their 7,000 years of existence.
But the recurring theme I found --
from the Caeliar imprisoning the Columbia crew, to the MACO attack on the Caeliar, to the future-Caeliar attack on their past selves, to the creation of the Borg, to the thalaron weapon issue, to the manner in which the Borg were finally defeated
Last edited:
Will this tune be on your next collaborative Filk album
Be careful what you wish for.....
Well, here I have to agree. Just look at us Kes fans who wanted the character back and sent letters to Paramount about wanting Kes re-instated as a regular character again.
Look what we got for that! "Fury" and the total destruction of the character.
I want to address this as it comes up a lot and not just about Kes.
Kes was replaced by 7 of 9. This was done for cynical and OBVIOUS reasons having to do with sex appeal and TV ratings. When an actor is let go from or quits a show, especially a crime or adventure show, they are often brought back one more time to "kill them off." Also done for ratings. Don't ask me about the psychology of that because it's crazy. If you think about it you can find many examples of this phenomenon.
Setting aside Ms. Ryan's acting abilities (she's not bad at all) the difference between nordic, statuesque, busty 7 and Kes is clear. 7 walked around in a corset, catsuit and heels for God's sake, and, without looking, I guarantee you will find there was a corresponding ratings spike. Fair? Nope. Not hardly. But also not based on spite.
At no time do fan letters, even massive campaigns, engender a spiteful reaction such that the writers sit down and say, "All right, you want Kes back, FINE. See how you like THIS!"
It just doesn't work that way.
Actually if we want to get technical then Kes was replaced by Garret Wang, (who was originally on the kill list - but then some article in some magazine saved him)
plus the supporting actors (but not Kate Mulgrew's I think) contracts expired after three years, so any of them could concievably been removed, but the powers that be chose Jennifer Lien...if memory serves
plus the supporting actors (but not Kate Mulgrew's I think) contracts expired after three years, so any of them could concievably been removed, but the powers that be chose Jennifer Lien...if memory serves
Yes, they did that to increase ratings and maybe it worked for awhile, but you've got to wonder if the regular and loyal audience for Voyager was really the demographics they aimed to please with this change, meaning sex-crazed teenage boys.
There seem to be a lot of women of all ages, me included, who have Voyager as their favourite series and many say it's due to the special interaction of the characters.
I think Voyager spoke to a slightly different audience, and I think TPTB got it wrong when they aimed for the demographic they did.
Of course I have zero substantial information to back it up, but it's a thought and one that I've heard many times over the years.
I suppose they figured (rightly or wrongly) that the loyal ones would keep watching, so they were looking to attract new viewers...
Ahh...screw the women and go for the men. Got it.
No sorry - that's not what you said, but that's how the last few years on the show seemed, and I just felt like saying it.
No offence to writers, editors, publishers or posters/members here.
I'm talking about the show, not the books. 
No sorry - that's not what you said, but that's how the last few years on the show seemed, and I just felt like saying it.
No offence to writers, editors, publishers or posters/members here.
I'm talking about the show, not the books. 
And funnily enough, this middle-aged woman got back into Voyager when Seven came onboard.
I was prepared to hate her. I really was. I tuned in to season 4 looking forward to seeing the blonde bimbette crash and burn. Because, honestly, how could anyone who looked like that have any talent or have a brain?
I was never more pleased to be proven wrong.
You're generalizing about women again.
No, the standard contract is five years, locking in pay scales for that duration. But... the actors can always be released from their contracts (aka "fired") at Paramount's whim, such as happened with the actors playing Bev and Kes. The actors playing Tasha and Wes asked to be released early, but Paramount could just have easily have refused (as once happened to Farrah Fawcett-Majors on "Charlie's Angels").
The actress playing Jadzia Dax successfully renegotiated her salary for Season Six of DS9, but was then offered no substantial increase for Season Seven, so she was free to walk.
Right, whatever you say - moving on.
Be careful what you wish for.....
Well, here I have to agree. Just look at us Kes fans who wanted the character back and sent letters to Paramount about wanting Kes re-instated as a regular character again.
Look what we got for that! "Fury" and the total destruction of the character.
I want to address this as it comes up a lot and not just about Kes.
Kes was replaced by 7 of 9. This was done for cynical and OBVIOUS reasons having to do with sex appeal and TV ratings. When an actor is let go from or quits a show, especially a crime or adventure show, they are often brought back one more time to "kill them off." Also done for ratings. Don't ask me about the psychology of that because it's crazy. If you think about it you can find many examples of this phenomenon.
Setting aside Ms. Ryan's acting abilities (she's not bad at all) the difference between nordic, statuesque, busty 7 and Kes is clear. 7 walked around in a corset, catsuit and heels for God's sake, and, without looking, I guarantee you will find there was a corresponding ratings spike. Fair? Nope. Not hardly. But also not based on spite.
At no time do fan letters, even massive campaigns, engender a spiteful reaction such that the writers sit down and say, "All right, you want Kes back, FINE. See how you like THIS!"
It just doesn't work that way.
Deliberately or not, it was a spit in the face of the Kes fans.
And I'm still curious about why a character who they had done everything to erase from the history of the series (she was never mentioned after being kicked out in the first place and the Hydroponics Bay in which she did grow flowers was transformed into some Dracula's den for the Borg who were brought on board. Obviously they had no need for food anymore) all of a sudden is brought back- only to be destroyed in the worst possible way and it just happened to coincide with a letter campaign to bring back the character as a permanent main character again. Not to mention that they actually planned to kill off the character as a not so nice gesture to the Kes fans but Jennifer Lien made them change the end of the story.
Too many coincidents here.
As for kicked out main characters brought back to be killed off, I've only seen that in one case and it was in some police series called "Pacific Blue" where one of the original characters who had eft in he middle of the series was brought back and killed off. The episode was absolutely horrible but I don't think that there were any letter campaign going about that character.
As for the spike in ratings, there was such a spike when Seven arrived but it faded quickly and the ratings for the rest of the series were lower than for seasons 1-3.
Well, here I have to agree. Just look at us Kes fans who wanted the character back and sent letters to Paramount about wanting Kes re-instated as a regular character again.
Look what we got for that! "Fury" and the total destruction of the character.
I want to address this as it comes up a lot and not just about Kes.
Kes was replaced by 7 of 9. This was done for cynical and OBVIOUS reasons having to do with sex appeal and TV ratings. When an actor is let go from or quits a show, especially a crime or adventure show, they are often brought back one more time to "kill them off." Also done for ratings. Don't ask me about the psychology of that because it's crazy. If you think about it you can find many examples of this phenomenon.
Setting aside Ms. Ryan's acting abilities (she's not bad at all) the difference between nordic, statuesque, busty 7 and Kes is clear. 7 walked around in a corset, catsuit and heels for God's sake, and, without looking, I guarantee you will find there was a corresponding ratings spike. Fair? Nope. Not hardly. But also not based on spite.
At no time do fan letters, even massive campaigns, engender a spiteful reaction such that the writers sit down and say, "All right, you want Kes back, FINE. See how you like THIS!"
It just doesn't work that way.
Deliberately or not, it was a spit in the face of the Kes fans.
And I'm still curious about why a character who they had done everything to erase from the history of the series (she was never mentioned after being kicked out in the first place and the Hydroponics Bay in which she did grow flowers was transformed into some Dracula's den for the Borg who were brought on board. Obviously they had no need for food anymore) all of a sudden is brought back- only to be destroyed in the worst possible way and it just happened to coincide with a letter campaign to bring back the character as a permanent main character again. Not to mention that they actually planned to kill off the character as a not so nice gesture to the Kes fans but Jennifer Lien made them change the end of the story.
Too many coincidents here.
As for kicked out main characters brought back to be killed off, I've only seen that in one case and it was in some police series called "Pacific Blue" where one of the original characters who had eft in he middle of the series was brought back and killed off. The episode was absolutely horrible but I don't think that there were any letter campaign going about that character.
As for the spike in ratings, there was such a spike when Seven arrived but it faded quickly and the ratings for the rest of the series were lower than for seasons 1-3.
So you honestly believe that they spent all that time (conceiving, vetting and writing the story) and money (one million per ep, minimum and likely more in this case for the ep-specific FX) simply to be spiteful towards what amounts to a tiny fraction of their total audience?
No. That never happened. I'm sorry. It just didn't.
People make cynical decisions all the time, largely to enrich themselves, but they don't do things on that scale to spite people they don't know and will never meet.
I'm not trying to burst your bubble (well, not in a mean-spirited way) but isn't it just possible that the people who invented Kes just wanted to tell one last story about her? Or that they liked the actress and felt bad about the cynical decision they'd made to cut her and wanted to do something nice?
Why assume the basest motivation?
Similar threads
