How was Nero's anger going to save Romulus?

[Ryan8bit]

In the deleted scenes, Nero and crew were captured immediately after Narada is crippled by the Kelvin ramming - about a dozen Klingon ships decloak and demand surrender while chaos reigns on Nero's ship.

And then who repaired the ship in time for it to take out 4 times that many ships? It still doesn't make sense.

Hey, remember the Romulans? That lively group who, due to an ability to feast upon latent emotional impulses within the Vulcan species nearly took their original home planet to the brink of destruction and annoyed by a growing experiment in pacifism on that homeworld thought it would be better to trudge across the stars in tin cans so they could nurse that same grudge for a few millennia.

Yeah me too. And having that context makes most of Nero's actions appear rather by the book.

Yes, because every Romulan is the same...

It's pretty absurd to say that every Romulan is a psychopath, even for a fictional, somewhat two dimensional species.

 

[sonak]

I think there was always a Romulan Ambassador to the Federation, or in some sense, working with the Federation when it came to disputes that fell along the lines of the NZ and I was always under the impression that the Klingons and Romulans worked together or at least shared ideas since they had a common enemy which probably would be why the Romulan Ambassador was there in VI.

the comparison of Khan to Nero is wrong because Kirk really WAS an opponent of Khan's who was also responsible for his predicament in a way.(Both for leaving him there and not checking up on him and his group)


Spock was of course not an opponent of Nero's in any way, but was also actively trying to HELP the Romulans and was IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR NERO'S PREDICAMENT.


Bit of a difference there.

What? Kirk gave Khan pardon and stated that he'd give him a planet in which to reign. He agreed, that chick agreed, and they left on good terms. Spock then says something along the lines of it being interesting to visit the planet 100 years from now to see what came of the seed they planted. Kirk never agreed to check up on them nor was there any plans on visiting them again to make sure " they're doing okay ".

Khan agreed to Kirk's proposal. He become insane when the planet he lived on suffered a natural disaster and turned it into a wasteland that killed his wife and half his people. That was not Kirk's fault but Khan adamantly believed it was just by association. So how does that then make Kirk an equal opponent?

Kirk helped Khan by feeding his ego. It backfired because he tried to come up with a half assed stupid solution for another no-win scenario.

Spock didn't have to say that he could save their planet. He didn't have to come up with some device to absorb the supernova but he did. He gave them hope and it backfired. Just like Kirk.

Two individuals misguided with resentment due to, what they feel as, false hope. It's the same approach, there is no difference.

I'm not saying Kirk's actions weren't justified. But those actions WERE directly responsible for Khan's predicament.

In contrast, what happened to Romulus was a natural disaster, so Spock not only was in no way responsible for it, he was the GUY WHO WAS TRYING TO HELP THE ROMULANS THE MOST!

If you can't see the difference between those two situations, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[sonak]

How does going after the Federation help the Romulans at all or make Nero a "hero" to them? Is it established that by the time of the 25th century that those two powers are STILL rivals? (maybe it is in the movie and I missed it)

Nero is no longer in the later 24th century, he's now in a time when there is rivalry.

How does taking out the UFP as a rival power help Nero?

It's what he said in the film, he wants Romulus to be free of the same federation that he feels helped destroy it. He's obviously held something against the Federation probably beyond this Supernova. Was probably against Peace Treaties, etc.

Nero was a poorly written, one-dimensional character and his motivations make no sense. How much this affects one's enjoyment of the film is up to them.

Agreed. If it requires so much digging through deleted scenes and soft-canon fiction, to make sense of something, and even then only slightly make sense, then it's a bad movie folks.

It's only a bad movie to an individual, not some sort of fact that is suddenly bestowed upon us. Most individuals don't feel it's bad of course.

Again, the Federation DIDN'T HELP DESTROY ROMULUS! This is nothing more than the ravings of a madman!


Nero might have just as well said that he was going after the Federation because teal-colored lizards wear their underwear backwards on their heads on alternate Thursdays.




Both explanations make no sense, they're both the ravings of a lunatic.


Nonsensical, poorly-motivated madmen aren't very interesting characters.

 

[Merky]

I'm not saying Kirk's actions weren't justified. But those actions WERE directly responsible for Khan's predicament.

In contrast, what happened to Romulus was a natural disaster, so Spock not only was in no way responsible for it, he was the GUY WHO WAS TRYING TO HELP THE ROMULANS THE MOST!

If you can't see the difference between those two situations, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'll just point you to what you said here, except I replaced the characters:

Again, Kirk DIDN'T STRAND KHAN ON A WASTELAND ON PURPOSE! This is nothing more than the ravings of a madman!


Khan might have just as well said that he was going after Kirk because teal-colored lizards wear their underwear backwards on their heads on alternate Thursdays.


Both explanations make no sense, they're both the ravings of a lunatic.

Nonsensical, poorly-motivated madmen aren't very interesting characters.

Ceti Alpha V turning into a wasteland due to Ceti Alpha VI exploding is no more Kirk's fault than it being Spock's fault for a star exploding and it's supernova consuming Romulus.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Yes, because every Romulan is the same...

It's pretty absurd to say that every Romulan is a psychopath, even for a fictional, somewhat two dimensional species.

Huh? I never said every Romulan is a "psychopath". I said there is cultural background as to why a Romulan might so easily hold a grudge for a long time and against Vulcans specifically.

Do you dispute that the Romulans have had a collective love-hate relationship with Vulcan? A planet they thought to conquer over at least three occasions.

There is certainly a zeitgeist at work in Romulan motives past and present fueled by their past and knowing that makes it easier to grasp why Nero might take his anger out on Spock and Vulcan.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Although this brings a bitter taste, the one major example of a guy holding an irrational and insane grudge is Adolf Hitler.

Still more experimental confirmation of Godwin's Law.

Psychopaths aren't usually so functional, smart, or capable of leadership.

Neither was Nero

Plus, we're led to believe that Nero wasn't all these things until his wife and home planet were destroyed. Since Spock couldn't have been too late to the party, Nero probably only knew about the destruction of Romulus for what, an hour?

Considering how heavily the Narada was armed when it emerged from that black hole, it stands to reason Nero's personal issues are probably old news to everyone but Spock.

Having a brief stress period could be easily remedied by the shock of time travel and the idea that what caused him grief could be undone.

Right, because realistically, Nero would have been just fine if he'd simply looked up the ship's counselor and had a heart to heart sit-down to talk about his feelings.

Wait a minute... he DIDN'T do that? Wow, what a glaring plothole!

 

[Ryan8bit]

Huh? I never said every Romulan is a "psychopath". I said there is cultural background as to why a Romulan might so easily hold a grudge for a long time and against Vulcans specifically.

Do you dispute that the Romulans have had a collective love-hate relationship with Vulcan? A planet they thought to conquer over at least three occasions.

There is certainly a zeitgeist at work in Romulan motives past and present fueled by their past and knowing that makes it easier to grasp why Nero might take his anger out on Spock and Vulcan.

The Romulans have also tried conquering the Federation, the Klingons, etc. Sure, they have a special relationship with Vulcan, but not to the point of psychopathy and genocide. Saying that Nero's actions are "by the book" only implies that Romulan society is bent on annihilation and idiocy when that is not the case. Nero is definitely an oddity, and his culture doesn't really foster his beliefs.

Psychopaths aren't usually so functional, smart, or capable of leadership.

Neither was Nero

Then how was he able to keep his crew loyal to him in such a ludicrous mission? How was he able to figure out when Spock would appear?

Right, because realistically, Nero would have been just fine if he'd simply looked up the ship's counselor and had a heart to heart sit-down to talk about his feelings.

Wait a minute... he DIDN'T do that? Wow, what a glaring plothole!

No one said it's a plot hole, just that it's an unbelievable character. If you took a second to actually think about being in Nero's shoes, you might think about how you would be emotionally affected. If you lost a loved one and then a couple hours later were given a chance to prevent it from happening, you'd probably get over the initial feelings of despair and be filled with hope. You'd probably do what it takes to prevent it first, not just go around hellbent on vengeance.

 

[Merky]

Then how was he able to keep his crew loyal to him in such a ludicrous mission? How was he able to figure out when Spock would appear?

How do tragedies like Waco and Johnstown happen? Like minded people mindlessly following a deranged leader to the point of death.

No one said it's a plot hole, just that it's an unbelievable character. If you took a second to actually think about being in Nero's shoes, you might think about how you would be emotionally affected.

Unbelievable characters? That is a character archetype.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_Attraction - Mistress becomes obsessive after being dumped to the point that she fakes her pregnancy, tries to kill her lover, his family, and not to mention killed the pet rabbit and stuck it in a boiling pot of water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Fear_%281991_film%29 - Man went to prison, decided to take revenge on his attorney and his family 14 years later.

http://wiki.d-addicts.com/The Quiz Show - Japanese drama series about two men. One bent on taking revenge for someone dear to them that died due to what they viewed as negligence on the other man's part. This bitter anger and hatred lasted for years before manifesting itself.

http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Maou - Lawyer exacts revenge on the man that killed his brother. He waits nearly 15 or 20 years to kill this man and everyone close to him.

and again, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_II:_The_Wrath_of_Khan

This is your standard revenge plot. Why is this suddenly a big deal?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Neither was Nero

Then how was he able to keep his crew loyal to him in such a ludicrous mission?

In terms of the ORIGINAL SCRIPT, he didn't; they had a choice to either follow him or spend the rest of their lives in Rura Penthe.

As for the finished version... probably the same way Khan did it.

No one said it's a plot hole, just that it's an unbelievable character. If you took a second to actually think about being in Nero's shoes, you might think about how you would be emotionally affected.

And I would have reacted completely differently from Nero. In point of fact, I would have done just about EVERYTHING differently from Nero every step of the way. For example, if I suddenly discovered that I had arrived at some point in the past--150 years or so to be exact--I would have reacted with surprise and joy and looked up my computer records to immediately look for a way to use my future tech to ensure me a position of wealth and influence in my past homeland. NERO, on the other hand, reacts by leaping across the room and impaling Robau with a spear.

Suffice to say, I am not really in a position to walk in Nero's shoes, and I can't relate to his state of mind at all. And I don't have to, nor do I want to, because Nero is the antagonist of the story; you're not SUPPOSED to be able to identify him. He exists in the first place only to be killed by the heroes. STXI wasn't the kind of movie that could introduce some sort of sympathetic "We can sort of see his point of view" villain that you can feel bad for at the end; science fiction movie series usually take two or three installments to produce that kind of depth, if then.

If you lost a loved one and then a couple hours later were given a chance to prevent it from happening, you'd probably get over the initial feelings of despair and be filled with hope. You'd probably do what it takes to prevent it first, not just go around hellbent on vengeance.

All correct. And the REASON I would do these things is because I am not a psychotic asshole with poor impulse control and a tendency to distribute pain and suffering on a planetary scale just because I'm pissed.

I'm from Chicago, not Gaza City.

 

[Ryan8bit]

How do tragedies like Waco and Johnstown happen? Like minded people mindlessly following a deranged leader to the point of death.

Usually such people are mentally troubled from the start or know what they're getting into. A career in mining doesn't at all sound like a cult, and I doubt the majority of the crew had mental problems of that nature to begin with.

Unbelievable characters? That is a character archetype.

[...]
This is your standard revenge plot. Why is this suddenly a big deal?

I haven't seen any of those movies except for TWOK, so I can't really comment.

On TWOK or even "Space Seed" it's a little more believable because Khan is essentially shown to be mad from the start. The general idea in "Space Seed" was that tampering with the brain or intellect might have some repercussions, and it actually served a point. And with their modifications came ambition and arrogance, which led to a superiority complex, which led to hostility. It's not an uncommon theme through history, even without genetic engineering. With Khan and his crew it was amplified.

I don't know what Nero's excuse was or what point it served other than to move the plot along.

In terms of the ORIGINAL SCRIPT

Again, I don't care about ancillary material. All that matters is what makes it on screen.

Nero is the antagonist of the story; you're not SUPPOSED to be able to identify him. He exists in the first place only to be killed by the heroes.

That is possibly the worst justification for any character.

STXI wasn't the kind of movie that could introduce some sort of sympathetic "We can sort of see his point of view" villain that you can feel bad for at the end;

It's true, and I guess I shouldn't expect so much. But I think even in terms of a villain, many other popular movies have done the two-dimensional villain better. Like they make you want to hate them or see them get their comeuppance. I really didn't feel anything for Nero at all. He was just a glorified set piece or plot device.

I am not a psychotic asshole with poor impulse control and a tendency to distribute pain and suffering on a planetary scale just because I'm pissed.

I feel like the movie meant to imply that Nero was once at least not insane, and that those events really just pushed him into it. Otherwise the circumstances were pretty unnecessary.

 

[Trilliam]

Nero was that stupid. Clearly his crew were just as stupid. The whole motivation and goal of Nero was stupid.
The "Nero was insane" argument makes no sense. He sat around forever on a ship with a bunch of other people willing to do what he tells them, and not one of them bothered to think the situation through in all of this time. His goal was to destroy the planet with the technology to save Romulus, and to take revenge on the one person who tried to save his planet in the face of a natural disaster, of which he had no part in. Not to mention he had gone back in time to a point where Romulus still existed, so he had all the opportunity to stop it from ever happening.

I agree. You'll often hear people defend this movie by saying Nero was insane and therefore his motives shouldn't have to make sense. But what about his crew? Don't you think that after 25 years, some of them might question to mental health of their captain? And what about Nero himself? Is it plausible that his anger would last that long? Also, did the movie establish how Nero knew when and where Spock would appear? I don't recall. But however you try to rationalize it, the motive for Nero is ridiculous. If my house catches on fire and my family dies cause the firefighters couldn't get their in time, is it plausible that I would go insane to the point where I would want to exact revenge on the firefighter's family? Of course not. It's bad writing. But there will always be fans who'll defend anything Trek. These are the people who defend Star Trek V, Voyager, and even Threshold.

His crew had all sufferd the same or similar loss to Nero's loss.

 

[Trilliam]

Right, because realistically, Nero would have been just fine if he'd simply looked up the ship's counselor and had a heart to heart sit-down to talk about his feelings.

Wait a minute... he DIDN'T do that? Wow, what a glaring plothole!

Did Romulan Mining vessels have Counsellors?

 

[Xerxes1979]

His crew had all sufferd the same or similar loss to Nero's loss.

But why did they all sign off on Nero's course of action? If they were all miners how did they decide Nero was calling the shots? I am sure he didn't actually own the Narada, rather a large Romulan corporation did and in the future he was their employee.

Look at at Ridley Scott's Alien. They have a big democratic discussion where profit and shares are discussed before going to LV 426.

All those Romulans were angry? What about about ones who were depressed or dispondant? I doubt he was so overcrewed that he could afford to kill everybody that disagreed with him.

Where was Nero's executive officer? Kruge and Khan both had underlings who were more than just mindless robots. Hell even moronic Shinzon had the Viceroy telling him that the clock was running out on that blood transfusion.

 

[Devon]

His crew had all sufferd the same or similar loss to Nero's loss.

But why did they all sign off on Nero's course of action? If they were all miners how did they decide Nero was calling the shots? I am sure he didn't actually own the Narada, rather a large Romulan corporation did and in the future he was their employee.

When you have that large a group of people someone has to lead it. Large corporations hire supervisors, managers, team leads, etc.

Where was Nero's executive officer? Kruge and Khan both had underlings who were more than just mindless robots. Hell even moronic Shinzon had the Viceroy telling him that the clock was running out on that blood transfusion.

Ayel.

Nero is no longer in the later 24th century, he's now in a time when there is rivalry.

It's what he said in the film, he wants Romulus to be free of the same federation that he feels helped destroy it. He's obviously held something against the Federation probably beyond this Supernova. Was probably against Peace Treaties, etc.

Again, the Federation DIDN'T HELP DESTROY ROMULUS! This is nothing more than the ravings of a madman!

Again, "He's obviously held something against the Federation probably beyond this Supernova. Was probably against Peace Treaties, etc." And you're right, he is a madman, as Spock alluded to with his "troubled Romulan" comment.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Again, the Federation DIDN'T HELP DESTROY ROMULUS! This is nothing more than the ravings of a madman!

The galaxy's in peril from a supernova (bad science, we know). Ambassador Spock swoops in and stops the supernova just after Romulus is destroyed. Based on the 200+ year rivalry between the two powers, a guy who just lost his family deciding that the Vulcans and Federation delayed on purpose is believable.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

How do tragedies like Waco and Johnstown happen? Like minded people mindlessly following a deranged leader to the point of death.

Usually such people are mentally troubled from the start or know what they're getting into. A career in mining doesn't at all sound like a cult

Except that Nero's crew is said to belong to a splinter group of fanatical Romulans with a larger-than-normal emphasis on Romulan Martial Philosophy. This is part of the background of their character design; it is the reason for their facial tattoos and widespread use of long-handle edged weapons, neither of which are "normal" Romulan traits.

That is possibly the worst justification for any character.

Star Trek has been doing that for decades. It is, in fact, FAMOUS for it.

STXI wasn't the kind of movie that could introduce some sort of sympathetic "We can sort of see his point of view" villain that you can feel bad for at the end;

It's true, and I guess I shouldn't expect so much. But I think even in terms of a villain, many other popular movies have done the two-dimensional villain better.

Absolutely. All of which were films that had plenty of time to develop a small number of protagonists against a small number of antagonists in relation to one another, to the extent that the confrontation between the two characters helps to define them both and guide their development. A story that is basically "Jack vs. Jill" allows you to fully explore both sides of the issue and fully articulate the protagonists viewpoint and the antagonists motivation.

But Star Trek isn't about a Vulcan named Spock and a Romulan named Nero. Star Trek is about Kirk, Spock, Uhura, Bones, a ship named Enterprise and its many adventures. Nero doesn't NEED to be developed in this context, because the story isn't about him.

I feel like the movie meant to imply that Nero was once at least not insane, and that those events really just pushed him into it. Otherwise the circumstances were pretty unnecessary.

The CIRCUMSTANCES only worked out the way they did in order to place Nero--with his 24th century technology--a century and a half into his own past so he could manifest a credible threat to the protagonists. No attempt was actually made to justify his point of view, because when it's all said and done he doesn't REALLY have one. He's just an omnicidal maniac who needs to be stopped at all costs; the movie could have removed Nero altogether and turned the Narada into a robot space craft (like the whale probe) and it would have basically the same plot.

 

[Merky]

Usually such people are mentally troubled from the start or know what they're getting into. A career in mining doesn't at all sound like a cult, and I doubt the majority of the crew had mental problems of that nature to begin with.

You're then implying that anyone who joins a cult is insane from the get go. These people that joined these cults were brainwashed into believing whatever their cult leader said. Jim Jones cultivated his own world by being a speaker who lifted people's spirits (albeit negatively for his own good and narcissism) who were down on their luck and looking for some form of salvation.

When they finally reached Jonestown, I believe that's the real name, they had believed they reached some pinnacle of a paradise. When they felt the paradise be threatened by the government, Jim Jones told everyone to kill themselves. There was more building up to this of course...

... So the point I was making is that: If you have one man with a strong enough voice and influence, that man can control armies. We have a ship of angry and depressed Romulans. They look up to this man as their salvation and guidance. His insanity is not questioned until he finally looses it and is willing to risk everything to kill Spock:

Nero: Target that ship!
Romulan: But sir that would ignite the red matter--
Nero: I WANT SPOCK DEAD NOW!!

The general idea in "Space Seed" was that tampering with the brain or intellect might have some repercussions, and it actually served a point. And with their modifications came ambition and arrogance, which led to a superiority complex, which led to hostility. It's not an uncommon theme through history, even without genetic engineering. With Khan and his crew it was amplified.

The theme of Space Seed was about arrogance through power. It wasn't a lesson on genetic engineering, or they would have focused on everyone in Khan's party. It was instead an episode about the clashing of two minds, both brilliant; one trying to take control and one trying to regain control. Khan was not "insane" in the slightest bit, he was portrayed as an arrogant, yet brilliant, military tactician.

Ruthless and uncaring.

That still does not excuse Khan's characterization in TWOK. I do not understand why people are coming up with all these excuses to defend Khan from the Nero allusion. They're both the same character archetype. I even said it: Forget that Space Seed even existed, Khan is still the shallow revengeful character that you have no sympathy for other than to force Kirk to face death.

I'm almost compelled to do a side by side video comparison of Nero and Khan now to make my point..

 

[Crazy Eddie]

When they finally reached Jonestown, I believe that's the real name, they had believed they reached some pinnacle of a paradise. When they felt the paradise be threatened by the government, Jim Jones told everyone to kill themselves. There was more building up to this of course...

Minor detail here: in the end, they didn't actually kill themselves as much they were mass poisoned and/or machinegunned by Jones' loyalists.

 

[BillJ]

When you have that large a group of people someone has to lead it. Large corporations hire supervisors, managers, team leads, etc.

But I don't think these people are getting paid next Friday. Usually, when employment ends... so does the employs allegiance to his/her boss.

Except that Nero's crew is said to belong to a splinter group of fanatical Romulans with a larger-than-normal emphasis on Romulan Martial Philosophy.

Nowhere in the film is this even alluded to.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Except that Nero's crew is said to belong to a splinter group of fanatical Romulans with a larger-than-normal emphasis on Romulan Martial Philosophy.

Nowhere in the film is this even alluded to.

Because it's part of their background properties and is not at all relevant to the PLOT. It does, however, manifest in their behavior and appearance, which is different from every other depiction of the Romulans we have ever seen in the history of Star Trek.