How was Nero's anger going to save Romulus?

[Merky]

Wow, I bet many of the folks here bending over backwards to explain Nero's awkward motivations are the same ones criticizing Nemesis because Shinzon's make no sense.


I know a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, but sheesh....

Star Trek: Serious Business.

No comment on Nemesis though. Haven't seen it.

Star Trek VI had Kirk in prison. Not only was he still angry at the Klingons for the death of his son, not only was he probably angry at being wrongfully imprisoned, but he also knew that there was a price on his head. And yet despite all that added stress, he still had time to reflect and figure out why he was so angry, why his anger was misplaced, and come to terms with it. Funny how he managed to do that in a matter of days but Nero couldn't even after 25 years. Oh, and unlike Kirk, he can actually prevent the very event that angered him in the first place.

Kirk did not witness his planet being destroyed by a supernova. Kirk didn't loose every single person close to him. Kirk also, in STV, was having a jolly good ol' time party with the Klingons until Meyer, Pinn, and Nimoy were like " Oh wait, yeah, we need him to still hate the Klingons for his son for story conflict ".

Kirk had 10 years of dwelling on the death of his son to really come to terms with his dealings with the Klingons. Kirk also had a support system, he had Spock constantly reminding him to let go of the anger and to go forth with peace. Nero did not have that, instead he had a crew of equally angered and pissed off Romulans feeding each other the hate, regret, and resentment. Kirk witnessed and realized that it was not only the Klingons that turned their back on peace but the Federation as well. It gave him a wake up call to realize that it was not only just one side willing to bring everything to shit. That scenario did not even apply to Nero.

You're sort of comparing apples to oranges here. The more reasonable comparison, again, is Nero to Khan which you completely blown over.

It makes a huge difference. Now he has an opportunity to change history. The fact that the event is still fresh in their minds is irrelevant. Why? Because he has time to not only get over it, but come up with a way to prevent it.

You're trying to rationalize an irrational being. That in itself is moot. It's like telling a murderer " Hey, stop killing people. I wouldn't do that if I were you " or trying to tell a someone who's criminally insane to stop collecting the hands of women.

That logic just does not apply in this situation or even in that one.

But he does have a resource. He has time. If my friend is killed in a car accident and I jump back in time 1 hour, that gives me only one hour to figure out how to save him. But if I jump back a month or a year, I have all the time in the world to come up with a plan.

That is what you would do but you're not in that situation nor are you in Nero's situation. How would you know that you would act rationally and not emotionally towards the death of someone dear to you? No one knows. I do not even know why you are trying to keep pushing this rational logic in a chaotic, emotional, situation.

But he does have the tools. The moment he got out of prison and reclaimed his ship, he could've gone about preventing the destruction of his planet. He didn't need to wait for Spock or get his hands on the red matter. Look how easily his ship destroyed the Federation fleet. When you have knowledge of the future and a ship that can easily outmatch any other adversary, how can you claim to be powerless to prevent a disaster? With that ship, he could've taken over Romulus. And knowing that the star would go nova someday, he'd have plenty of time to either prevent it or get all the Romulans out in time.

He destroyed the Federation fleet because he had the Red Matter on board. He destroyed the Federation fleet because they all fell into a trap. They were unprepared to be attacked by an alien ship -- you're missing a key point here: Everyone was going to Vulcan on a rescue mission to potentially evacuate all the people on the surface, or make an attempt. They all flew into a trap and got owned.

If the fleet was prepared they probably could have taken down the Narada.

 

[BillJ]

They could have simply dropped a line somewhere that Nero had already collapsed the Hobus star after picking up Spock. It wouldn't have hurt the narrative one bit. Just because your villain is insane doesn't mean he also has to be incompetent.

 

[Devon]

They could have simply dropped a line somewhere that Nero had already collapsed the Hobus star after picking up Spock. It wouldn't have hurt the narrative one bit. Just because your villain is insane doesn't mean he also has to be incompetent.

So what of the inhabitants of that star system?

 

[BillJ]

They could have simply dropped a line somewhere that Nero had already collapsed the Hobus star after picking up Spock. It wouldn't have hurt the narrative one bit. Just because your villain is insane doesn't mean he also has to be incompetent.

So what of the inhabitants of that star system?

Ummm... since Nero doesn't have a problem with committing murder on a mass scale, why would he give a second thought to the inhabitants of the Hobus system? Besides the film gives no indication one way or the other that the Hobus system in inhabited.

 

[DonIago]

I'm not sure why Nero not necessarily dealing with the Hobus situation in 25 years should matter. He still had plenty of time to do so, and perhaps was hoping to come up with a better solution than the Red Matter in the time remaining to him. In the meantime he was having fun blowing up everyone who had disappointed him previously.

 

[Merky]

Just because your villain is insane doesn't mean he also has to be incompetent.

Insanity and competency usually don't go in the same sentence, especially if said villain is obsessive on exacting revenge.

I'm not sure why Nero not necessarily dealing with the Hobus situation in 25 years should matter. He still had plenty of time to do so, and perhaps was hoping to come up with a better solution than the Red Matter in the time remaining to him. In the meantime he was having fun blowing up everyone who had disappointed him previously.

 

[BillJ]

Insanity and competency usually don't go in the same sentence, especially if said villain is obsessive on exacting revenge.

He seems able to plan/execute battle plans quite well for someone who is unstable. Especially considering he's just a miner. Plus him and his crew are able to formulate the exact point Spock is going to exit from a temporal vortex.

Pretty damn competent if you ask me.

Seems to me that for Romulus to be free of the Federation, you first ensure that Romulus is going to be there.

 

[Merky]

Insanity and competency usually don't go in the same sentence, especially if said villain is obsessive on exacting revenge.

He seems able to plan/execute battle plans quite well for someone who is unstable. Especially considering he's just a miner. Plus him and his crew are able to formulate the exact point Spock is going to exit from a temporal vortex.

Pretty damn competent if you ask me.

But then that would mean all of history's criminally insane were justifiably competent when they executed their heinous crimes. Just because it's well thought out and meticulous in execution does not mean that the person was of sound, mind and body. It just means they were obsessing over it time and time again until they had the opportunity to strike.

Seems to me that for Romulus to be free of the Federation, you first ensure that Romulus is going to be there.

lol :P

 

[Ryan8bit]

How would you know that you would act rationally and not emotionally towards the death of someone dear to you? No one knows. I do not even know why you are trying to keep pushing this rational logic in a chaotic, emotional, situation.

Emotions aren't always irrational or illogical. That said, traveling through time to before anything bad happened would be an extremely emotional event. All of a sudden you'd be given a rare second chance to make things right, which would probably blow anybody's mind. Whatever emotional distress weighted you down would probably be lifted.

 

[sonak]

How does going after the Federation help the Romulans at all or make Nero a "hero" to them? Is it established that by the time of the 25th century that those two powers are STILL rivals? (maybe it is in the movie and I missed it)


Again, what happened to Romulus was a NATURAL EVENT and had nothing to do with the Romulans' strategic position as compared to the Federation. How does taking out the UFP as a rival power help Nero? How does this make sense at all?

 

[Merky]

How does going after the Federation help the Romulans at all or make Nero a "hero" to them? Is it established that by the time of the 25th century that those two powers are STILL rivals? (maybe it is in the movie and I missed it)


Again, what happened to Romulus was a NATURAL EVENT and had nothing to do with the Romulans' strategic position as compared to the Federation. How does taking out the UFP as a rival power help Nero? How does this make sense at all?

Nero took into consideration the world he was in now. Romulans and Federation hated each other. Federation promised to save Romulus because of Spock. Instead of allowing Romulus to wait on aid of the Federation, he figured he rid the world of them and allow Romulus to stand free on their own.

He... pretty much... says all of this when he's torturing Pike. Did that scene like... go over everyone's head?

How would you know that you would act rationally and not emotionally towards the death of someone dear to you? No one knows. I do not even know why you are trying to keep pushing this rational logic in a chaotic, emotional, situation.

Emotions aren't always irrational or illogical. That said, traveling through time to before anything bad happened would be an extremely emotional event. All of a sudden you'd be given a rare second chance to make things right, which would probably blow anybody's mind. Whatever emotional distress weighted you down would probably be lifted.

Except that epiphany is short lived when you're thrown into a prison.

 

[BillJ]

How does this make sense at all?

He's crazy...

 

[BillJ]

He... pretty much... says all of this when he's torturing Pike. Did that scene like... go over everyone's head?

What went over my head is the fact that he first destroyed the only world to develop the tools to allow Romulus to survive without first assuring that Romulus does indeed survive.

Except that epiphany is short lived when you're thrown into a prison.

Which he wasn't... at least in the version of the film that was at the theaters.

 

[Merky]

I'd just love to see people give examples of people thrown into a prison for 20+ years (of hard labor) and who have came out completely fine and adjusted well into society without suffering from some form of post traumatic stress or other psychological issues.

He... pretty much... says all of this when he's torturing Pike. Did that scene like... go over everyone's head?

What went over my head is the fact that he first destroyed the only world to develop the tools to allow Romulus to survive without assuring that Romulus does indeed survive.

Why would he care? He had the device in his hand. He could have given it to Romulus after he took out everyone, saved the star, or whatever the hell he was gonna do after he took out the Federation.

 

[BillJ]

Why would he care? He had the device in his hand. He could have given it to Romulus after he took out everyone, saved the star, or whatever the hell he was gonna do after he took out the Federation.

So you honestly don't think that at some point the Klingons or Federation aren't going to figure out that they can disable him by ramming the Narada?

Everyday that Nero delays saving Romulus, the less likely it becomes that he is able to do it at all.

 

[Merky]

Why would he care? He had the device in his hand. He could have given it to Romulus after he took out everyone, saved the star, or whatever the hell he was gonna do after he took out the Federation.

So you honestly don't think that at some point the Klingons or Federation aren't going to figure out that they can disable him by ramming the Narada?

Everyday that Nero delays saving Romulus, the less likely it becomes that he is able to do it at all.

I'm not saying anything. This is a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question. Maybe he'll decide to throw everyone off with a broadway number. Who knows.

 

[BillJ]

Why would he care? He had the device in his hand. He could have given it to Romulus after he took out everyone, saved the star, or whatever the hell he was gonna do after he took out the Federation.

So you honestly don't think that at some point the Klingons or Federation aren't going to figure out that they can disable him by ramming the Narada?

Everyday that Nero delays saving Romulus, the less likely it becomes that he is able to do it at all.

I'm not saying anything. This is a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question. Maybe he'll decide to throw everyone off with a broadway number. Who knows.

My point being, is that a small snippet of dialog by anyone could have solved this issue. Making Nero look less idiotic.

 

[Merky]

So you honestly don't think that at some point the Klingons or Federation aren't going to figure out that they can disable him by ramming the Narada?

Everyday that Nero delays saving Romulus, the less likely it becomes that he is able to do it at all.

I'm not saying anything. This is a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question. Maybe he'll decide to throw everyone off with a broadway number. Who knows.

My point being, is that a small snippet of dialog by anyone could have solved this issue. Making Nero look less idiotic.

 

[M'Sharak]

...

I agree. You'll often hear people defend this movie by saying... [...]
But there will always be fans who'll defend anything Trek. These are the people who defend Star Trek V, Voyager, and even Threshold.

...

...

[...]
It continually amazes me the lengths people will go to to defend a movie they like.

...

[...]
The fact that so many fans bought into it shows them to be nothing more than apologists for bad writing.
[...]

[...]

...

...

Oh so now it's a drunkard. What happened to claiming insanity? Funny how much people have to bend over backwards to defend Nero.

The bits I've emphasized here are unnecessary to your arguments. Pick apart the movie all you like; criticize the comments or the arguments put forth by others, if you disagree with them, but don't take swipes at those making those comments or advancing those arguments. If someone likes this movie, it does not make them wrong and it in no way makes them an apologist for the writers or anyone else; they merely hold a different opinion than do you.

This forum is provided for the purpose of discussing the movie. So discuss the movie. Don't get personal - it's unnecessary and it's unwelcome.


While we're on the subject of getting personal:

Wow, I bet many of the folks here bending over backwards to explain Nero's awkward motivations are the same ones criticizing Nemesis because Shinzon's make no sense.


I know a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, but sheesh....

Don't do that.

It's plainly intended to be insulting, it's completely unnecessary to civil discussion, and if I see anything like it from you again, it will very likely earn you a warning for trolling.


Now play nice.

 

[DonIago]

Perhaps Nero didn't immediately blow the Hobus star because its existence was important to the Romulan empire prior to Nero's time.