How was Nero's anger going to save Romulus?

[Merky]

Who was gonna call on Nero to commit him? Who was gonna put him down? Who was there to stop him? He found out that his planet imploded, or witnessed it, and tried to take out Spock. They both ended up transported back in time and there was no one in the 23rd century that could talk sense to Nero and tell him " Bro, it's okay ". It was " I don't even know what the hell you're talking about, Bro. ". It also didn't help that he became too powerful to stop.

It's not a case of characterization here where Nero fails as a villain, the problem lies that Nero was too powerful of a villain. Like a steamroller rolling over a bunch of ants.

When people go insane, they snap. It's too late, there's no warning. It's not like they all had a chance to sit these crazy people down and have a therapy session to find out " what's bothering them " before they decided to shoot up the building or kill their wife. Maybe if we had Sybok all these problems could have been avoided?

eta:

I will get slammed hard for this, but look at Khan for insance in The Wrath of Khan. Let's just forget that Space Seed ever happened and what we know of his back story and just focus on his characterization in the movie. Here, we have an angry super being who's been stranded on an inhospitable planet for a little over a decade. Suddenly, he gets in contact with some Starfleet officers, hijacks a space ship, and decides that he's going to kill Kirk.

Why? Because his wife died and believes it's Kirk's fault.

He steals the Genesis Device, takes it, and decides that he needs to make Kirk suffer. You don't know anything else about this guy other than wife dead + stranded on planet because of Kirk = Batshit insane needs to kill Kirk.

So what makes Khan better than Nero as a movie villain excluding his already pre-developed story in Space Seed (which really doesn't add much in his defense)?

eta #2:

I also like to add that while Khan had a voice of reason telling him he was going too far, Khan's relationship with those individuals are different. I'm assuming that they were like children to him, a family. They tried to reason but it went on deaf ears. It was like watching a family member self destruct.

Nero on the other hand had respect but it was respect through fear. When his subordinates try to interject, they easily back down in fear of what he would do to them. It seems that he would not hesitate to kill in order to achieve his goal, no matter who it was.

 

[BillJ]

I love the fact that the Klingons had the Narada for twenty-five years and didn't tear it down to learn its secrets.

 

[Merky]

I love the fact that the Klingons had the Narada for twenty-five years and didn't tear it down to learn its secrets.

Klingons really don't have much of a track record with mind blowing intelligence.

 

[BillJ]

I love the fact that the Klingons had the Narada for twenty-five years and didn't tear it down to learn its secrets.

Klingons really don't have much of a track record with mind blowing intelligence.

Since they're technologically on par with the Federation and Romulans, I doubt they'd be incapable of tearing down the Narada.

But it's another 'leap of logic' we have to accept to make the story work.

 

[Merky]

I love the fact that the Klingons had the Narada for twenty-five years and didn't tear it down to learn its secrets.

Klingons really don't have much of a track record with mind blowing intelligence.

Since they're technologically on par with the Federation and Romulans, I doubt they'd be incapable of tearing down the Narada.

But it's another 'leap of logic' we have to accept to make the story work.

Well, we don't know what they did with the ship or the plans. Perhaps in the next few films we'll have an over powerful Klingon empire due to Nero's incursion

 

[T'Girl]

Nero had to fight Klingons ... [snip] ... From dialogue, we do know this fighting took place between Spock's emergence and the attack on Vulcan.

No. The fight with the Klingons that Uhura mentioned to her room mate happen the night before Spock's emergence, with the attack on Vulcan being after that.

 

[Timo]

The timeline is "2200 hours, space storm marking Spock's arrival" (Chekov's PA) and then "2300 hours, Klingon massacre by Nero" (Uhura's story). Both of these events are in the recent (within 24 hours) past of the trouble at Vulcan. So the Klingon prison planet that reported the fight of one Romulan against 47 Klingons was somewhere between the point of Spock's emergence and Vulcan in the temporal sense - although we don't know the spatial particulars of the dogleg Nero might have taken.

Hell, for all we know, Nero didn't take down the 47 Klingon ships with his missiles. He took most of them down by turning the local star into a black hole, thereby saving the 24th century Romulus!

We can of course cast doubt on the number of space storms or time travel events in the movie, or on the veracity of Klingon comm intercepts. But pruning most of the putative events, the story seems to be that Nero emerged in 2233, was hurt by Kelvin, did nothing we'd know of for 25 years, intercepted Spock to get red matter, hit the Klingons for some unspecific reason, marooned Spock on Delta Vega, and killed Vulcan, all these latter feats within one day. Which is how smoothly one would expect a plan to unfold if the villain has had 25 years to think it through!

I have yet to hear a story where something like this happened in the real world.

You don't read the yellow press much, then. In our sordid little northern corner of the world, stories of drunkards carrying a decades-long grudge against the policeman who didn't arrive soon enough to stop said drunkard from killing his own wife and children are far too many...

People in general aren't kind and thankful. I wonder if people in this forum are biased to the civil side, despite appearances... Certainly Star Trek in general has been to the unrealistic side with its theatrical gentleman-villains until recently.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ShatnersToupee]

Who was gonna call on Nero to commit him? Who was gonna put him down? Who was there to stop him? He found out that his planet imploded, or witnessed it, and tried to take out Spock. They both ended up transported back in time and there was no one in the 23rd century that could talk sense to Nero and tell him " Bro, it's okay ". It was " I don't even know what the hell you're talking about, Bro. ". It also didn't help that he became too powerful to stop.

Gee, maybe his crew would've realized after 25 years that their Captain was nuts. It's possible that Nero killed the first dissenters. But if enough of them turned on him, there's no way he could've remained in power. So for the story to have any plausibility, we not only have to believe that Nero remained insane for 25 years, but also no one one else challenged his authority. Sorry, but that's just laughable.

I love the fact that the Klingons had the Narada for twenty-five years and didn't tear it down to learn its secrets.

No kidding. You have people here using a deleted scene to prop up their arguments. Well it goes both ways. If you want to use that deleted scene, then that means the Klingons would've torn it apart to learn how it works. I doubt they would've put it back together and left it sitting around for Nero to reclaim.

I have yet to hear a story where something like this happened in the real world.

You don't read the yellow press much, then. In our sordid little northern corner of the world, stories of drunkards carrying a decades-long grudge against the policeman who didn't arrive soon enough to stop said drunkard from killing his own wife and children are far too many...

Oh so now it's a drunkard. What happened to claiming insanity? Funny how much people have to bend over backwards to defend Nero.

 

[F. King Daniel]

You have people here using a deleted scene to prop up their arguments

Re-read the thread. Merky brought up the deleted scene saying Nero couldn't have spent his jail time calculating Spock's arrival, when that's exactly what said scene showed. Nothing to do with the actual movie itself.

 

[Timo]

Oh so now it's a drunkard. What happened to claiming insanity? Funny how much people have to bend over backwards to defend Nero.

Just demonstrating that it's a universal phenomenon. Could be a war veteran, too. Or somebody who got mistreated on the school yard way back. Nero is the everyman, probably the first realistic villain to hit Trek writing since, oh, Croden from DS9 "Vortex" or Kozak from "House of Quark"...

It's a matter of personal taste whether realistic adversaries make for good drama, or whether unrealistic gentleman criminals with an actual plan are more to one's dramatic liking. Usually, though, fearsome opponents benefit from being realistic, in two ways: they hit closer to home (could've been my husband) and they hit when you least expect...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Set Harth]

From a very large blob of red matter a small amount is needed to destroy a planet. The amount is finite however and would be greatly depleted wiping out the various hundreds of planets in the U.F.P. The full glob may have been needed to save Romulus in any case so even if Nero survived all those decades he may have still failed.

That doesn't make much sense. If Nero planned to use the red matter to save Romulus, he would have had enough by then.

both Nero and Spock time-emerged at basically the same spatial coordinates they time-departed from

They went in at roughly the same coordinates, but emerged in different locations as shown in the film.

 

[Merky]

Who was gonna call on Nero to commit him? Who was gonna put him down? Who was there to stop him? He found out that his planet imploded, or witnessed it, and tried to take out Spock. They both ended up transported back in time and there was no one in the 23rd century that could talk sense to Nero and tell him " Bro, it's okay ". It was " I don't even know what the hell you're talking about, Bro. ". It also didn't help that he became too powerful to stop.

Gee, maybe his crew would've realized after 25 years that their Captain was nuts. It's possible that Nero killed the first dissenters. But if enough of them turned on him, there's no way he could've remained in power. So for the story to have any plausibility, we not only have to believe that Nero remained insane for 25 years, but also no one one else challenged his authority. Sorry, but that's just laughable.

Well, now you're just reaching. You're automatically assuming that a group of miners are completely sane along with their leader after

1) Losing their planet

which then means
2) Losing their only home

which then also means
3) Losing their friends and family

which also then rolls right into
4) Being driven into deep manic depression which turns into regret than then turns into anger.

People don't bounce back from death, especially if it's personal to the person and especially if it was promised that it could have been prevented. Especially from a Vulcan, who already have a shitty relationship with the Romulans. You're expecting a group of people to act completely rational in a time of crisis.

It's not laughable, it's called a natural response to a loss of that scale. It's not like Nero had someone waiting for him in the turbolift to kiss his mental scars away.

 

[BillJ]

You have people here using a deleted scene to prop up their arguments

Re-read the thread. Merky brought up the deleted scene saying Nero couldn't have spent his jail time calculating Spock's arrival, when that's exactly what said scene showed. Nothing to do with the actual movie itself.

Problem there is that something happened in those intervening twenty-five years due to Nero's chewed ear and because we have filmed scenes we know what the writers intent was.

 

[Timo]

...Although generally writer intent gets cut because somebody realizes it wasn't very good intent.

They went in at roughly the same coordinates, but emerged in different locations as shown in the film.

Shown? We saw space, and then we saw space. Could have been inside the very same star system in both cases.

Nero's calculations apparently (only?) provided fine tuning, so that Spock emerged within just a few kilometers of the Narada and could immediately be captured. Which was good for Nero, because a chase against the fastest ship of the 24th century would have been hopeless...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

I agree with Timo.

The Narada originally appears near the Klingon border... then destroys 47 Klingon ships 25 years later (presumably) near the Klingon border. Why go back to the Klingon border unless you had a special package to pick up?

 

[ShatnersToupee]

You have people here using a deleted scene to prop up their arguments

Re-read the thread. Merky brought up the deleted scene saying Nero couldn't have spent his jail time calculating Spock's arrival, when that's exactly what said scene showed. Nothing to do with the actual movie itself.

Wrong. Merky raised the issue of the deleted scene to argue that the Romulans didn't have time to reflect on what happened because they were too busy doing hard labor in Rura Penthe. But that's ridiculous. People have lots of time in prison. So whether they were in prison or sitting on their ship would've made no difference. They still would've had plenty of time to reflect on what happened to Romulus and conclude that Spock wasn't at fault.

Just demonstrating that it's a universal phenomenon. Could be a war veteran, too. Or somebody who got mistreated on the school yard way back. Nero is the everyman, probably the first realistic villain to hit Trek writing since, oh, Croden from DS9 "Vortex" or Kozak from "House of Quark"...

Problem is that he's not realistic by virtue of the fact that most people wouldn't react the way he did. The real reason Nero wants revenge is obvious. It's because the plot demands it. The writers worked backwards. They came up with a villain, decided he wanted revenge on Spock, and then had to come up with a reason for it.

Well, now you're just reaching. You're automatically assuming that a group of miners are completely sane along with their leader after

1) Losing their planet

which then means
2) Losing their only home

which then also means
3) Losing their friends and family

which also then rolls right into
4) Being driven into deep manic depression which turns into regret than then turns into anger.

People don't bounce back from death, especially if it's personal to the person and especially if it was promised that it could have been prevented. Especially from a Vulcan, who already have a shitty relationship with the Romulans. You're expecting a group of people to act completely rational in a time of crisis.

It's not laughable, it's called a natural response to a loss of that scale. It's not like Nero had someone waiting for him in the turbolift to kiss his mental scars away.

The fatal flaw in your entire argument is that the Romulans ended up in the past, which means they're in a position to change history. If my mom is in a car accident and taken to the ER, but the doctors can't save her, I'll be pretty angry. But imagine if I could go back in time long before the accident. Do you think my mind will be on punishing the doctors for not saving my mom? Of course not. I'll be focusing on preventing my mom from getting into an accident in the first place. That's why Nero's motives are laughable. I don't care how angry he was at Spock. As soon as he realized that he was in the past, his first reaction should've been "what a lucky break. Now I can save my planet."

 

[BillJ]

That's why Nero's motives are laughable. I don't care how angry he was at Spock. As soon as he realized that he was in the past, his first reaction should've been "what a lucky break. Now I can save my planet."

Yeah. It did seem laughable that Nero didn't take care of the Hobus star first before wasting Red Matter on anything else.

 

[Merky]

You have people here using a deleted scene to prop up their arguments

Re-read the thread. Merky brought up the deleted scene saying Nero couldn't have spent his jail time calculating Spock's arrival, when that's exactly what said scene showed. Nothing to do with the actual movie itself.

Wrong. Merky raised the issue of the deleted scene to argue that the Romulans didn't have time to reflect on what happened because they were too busy doing hard labor in Rura Penthe. But that's ridiculous. People have lots of time in prison. So whether they were in prison or sitting on their ship would've made no difference. They still would've had plenty of time to reflect on what happened to Romulus and conclude that Spock wasn't at fault.

No, the reason I brought up the Rura Penthe was to give reason to the 25 year gap. That they weren't just sitting in space wasting time and contemplating on when to take revenge. They were caught, forced into the labor, and that would trigger more added stress and resentment for the situation they're in. Not takes from it.

If I had a shitty day and all of a sudden my car gets towed once I get out of work and it then starts to rain ... I wouldn't want to sit it out and reflect how I could have changed things. I would be sorely pissed off at the universe for being a dick.

The fatal flaw in your entire argument is that the Romulans ended up in the past, which means they're in a position to change history. If my mom is in a car accident and taken to the ER, but the doctors can't save her, I'll be pretty angry. But imagine if I could go back in time long before the accident. Do you think my mind will be on punishing the doctors for not saving my mom? Of course not. I'll be focusing on preventing my mom from getting into an accident in the first place. That's why Nero's motives are laughable. I don't care how angry he was at Spock. As soon as he realized that he was in the past, his first reaction should've been "what a lucky break. Now I can save my planet."

So they ended up in the past? What difference does that make... it's not like it took them 120 something odd years to go back into the past. It took moments, it's still fresh in their minds.

No matter what he could have done, he was still 120 odd years in the past. It's not like jumping back to the scene of the accident and saving the day. He still had to wait. How could he have saved his planet in those 25 years if he had no resources to do so. His plan too fruition the moment Spock arrived, which was within a 48 hour period that the events of the movie took place. Not 25.

How is it laughable? Nero had no chance, no tools, nothing to help save his planet. He was stuck in a prison, pissed off, letting the regret and pain of his planet eat him inside. He finally breaks out, luckily gets to meet Spock, capture him and decide to take out the entire Federation to save his planet and exact revenge for his wife by taking out Vulcan.

 

[BillJ]

How is it laughable? Nero had no chance, no tools, nothing to help save his planet. He was stuck in a prison, pissed off, letting the regret and pain of his planet eat him inside. He finally breaks out, luckily gets to meet Spock, capture him and decide to take out the entire Federation to save his planet and exact revenge for his wife by taking out Vulcan.

It still doesn't make sense. The Klingons just left the Narada hanging in orbit of Rura Penthe for twenty five years? The Klingons don't seem like ones to respect personal property rights.

 

[Sharr Khan]

What exactly is a normal reaction to losing one's entire homeworld?

If Nero and his cohorts weren't insanely screwed up people I'd have issues with the movie.

Why is it some science fiction and Star Trek fans in particular feel that beings must always react to every situation is some well thought out and logical manner? In real life flawed, imperfect people do dumb and insane stuff - just cause it makes them feel good or achieves a momentary goal.

I actually don't need the Rura Penthe plotline. It makes just as much sense (maybe more) to me that the Narada and crew were biding their time (crazy emo people can do that) for Spock to appear with the blob of red goo which would turn their ship into a super weapon before taking any action.