How the hell is she Captain?

[Thestral]

^ A Myriad Universe tale, a take on the Iliana Ghemor episode?

You proved that when this is not the case in the real world, there are visible manifestations - you know, a new state being formed, etc.
Meaning, yes, you DO need such new states, etc for your argument. Without them, your argument is a straw-man.

What? No. Stop moving the goalposts - just because there weren't new states formed in all cases doesn't mean there weren't Confederate citizens who put the interests of the United States before their own state. In the same way, just because there isn't (yet?) a new Andorian state formed doesn't mean there aren't Andorian citizens who put the interests of the Federation before Andor.

I have been saying majority aka not all for some time, Kestrel

So what does

Are you under the impression that the andorians - even the ones who voted against those - will cease to be in first place loyal to Andor and its people? Is this how you think democratic countries work? Really?

mean, if you're not not saying "all Andorians will be loyal to Andor first"? The first sentence explicitly says that the Andorians are (hence "will cease to be") loyal first to Andor.

 

[Sci]

Cute.
You never had this problem when you argued that 72% meant that a large fraction of andorians remained loyal to the federation.

I did not argue that the 28% of Andorian officers at DS9 who stayed in Starfleet meant that a large fraction of Andorians remained loyal to the Federation. I argued that we don't know.

What?
You argued that a large fraction of the andorians will stay loyal to the federation throughout this entire thread.

I never made any claims about what fraction of Andorians would stay loyal to the UFP first. And I refuted claims that we should automatically assume, or that we know that, a large fraction would chose Andor first.

Being opposed to the idea that we should assume something is true is not the same thing as supporting the idea that something is not true. I've been consistent in this thread in saying we don't know. We know there will be plenty who have one reaction, and plenty who have another, but we don't know their percentages.

Of course, we're talking about a fictional universe, presented only a fraction at a time - and the intent is to use the special case of DS9 to present starfleet in general.

If DRGIII personally verifies that around 70% of all Andorian Starfleet officers left Starfleet because they were more loyal to Andor than the UFP, then I'll buy it.

Until then, N=39 is not a valid sample size and I'm not going to try to draw any conclusions about the percentage of Andorians who left Starfleet, or of Andorians who are more loyal to Andor than the UFP.

Just to make clear - even these numbers regarding DS9 station alone are statistically relevant, assuming the rate of andorian demisions skyrocketed from, let's say, 10% to 72%.

No, it's not. 72% of N=39 is not a statistically meaningful same size, period. To get a meaningful sense of the situation, we'd need to know roughly how many Andorians there are in the entire Federation Starfleet, and how many of those chose to leave the Federation Starfleet, and how many of those who chose to leave the Federation Starfleet did so because they put loyalty to Andor ahead of loyalty to the Federation. We don't have any of those data points.

Either the difference is caused by Andor's secession, or it's a highly improbable freak event.

I am not claiming that those 28 Andorian officers at DS9 did not resign in consequence of Andor's secession. I am claiming that we do not have a large enough sample size to determine what percentage of Andorian officers left Starfleet as a result of secession, nor what percentage of those who left Starfleet did so because they were more loyal to Andor than the Federation. It is entirely plausible that one Starfleet outpost might have a higher than average contingent of Andorian officer resignations, and that another outpost might have a lower than average rate. Since we don't have any of those data points I mentioned above, we can't use the DS9 example to infer anything meaningful about general Andorian reaction.

Sci: Pretend for a moment that you are an ordinary citizen of the Federation observing the events described in PoD. You aren't privy to inside details and simply see the Andorian secession followed by an exodus of Andorians from Starfleet. Would you or wouldn't you perceive the exodus as a further sign of the Andorians cutting all ties with the Federation?

If I were a citizen of an enlightened culture like the Federation's, whose entire philosophy is based on the idea that we shouldn't stereotype, I'd refrain from coming to any conclusions without meaningful data.

Meanwhile, to the idea that Andorians are "cutting all ties:"

Typhon Pact: Paths of Disharmony, age 436:

"And what of those who voted against secession? What happens to them?"

"Nothing 'happens' to them, Madam President," the ambassador said. "They remain Andorian citizens, with all the inherent rights and privileges therein. Anyone wishing to leave Andor, even to live on a Federation-controlled world, is free to do so. I have been sent here to reassure you that while Andor will no longer be subject to the Federation's laws, we have no wish to cut off all ties."

another thread ruined by a stupid sidetrack...

Didn't you know Ro Laren is a secret embedded andorian

Zarkon for the win!

Also, I think this direction of conversation is perfectly valid. We've hashed out the question of Ro Laren's loyalty about five ways till Sunday. Meanwhile, the broader question of what it means to be loyal to the Federation is brought into play by the original topic, and that naturally leads into this one.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

You proved that when this is not the case in the real world, there are visible manifestations - you know, a new state being formed, etc.
Meaning, yes, you DO need such new states, etc for your argument. Without them, your argument is a straw-man.

What? No. Stop moving the goalposts - just because there weren't new states formed in all cases doesn't mean there weren't Confederate citizens who put the interests of the United States before their own state. In the same way, just because there isn't (yet?) a new Andorian state formed doesn't mean there aren't Andorian citizens who put the interests of the Federation before Andor.

You didn't support "just because there weren't new states formed in all cases doesn't mean there weren't Confederate citizens who put the interests of the United States before their own state".
You're the one moving the goalposts.

And the pro-union confederate citizens, in these cases, were in the minority.

I have been saying majority aka not all for some time, Kestrel

So what does

Are you under the impression that the andorians - even the ones who voted against those - will cease to be in first place loyal to Andor and its people? Is this how you think democratic countries work? Really?

mean, if you're not not saying "all Andorians will be loyal to Andor first"? The first sentence explicitly says that the Andorians are (hence "will cease to be") loyal first to Andor.

That was before 72% - which was quite a few posts ago in this thread.
So "I have been saying majority aka not all for some time, Kestrel."

 

[Christopher]

You know, I don't see the point of all this speculation about what should happen in the TP books. Ultimately, what does happen is going to be determined by the novelists based on their preferences for the kind of stories they want to tell, so it's not as if any outcome is actually inevitable. I mean, I don't think any fan could've predicted in advance that the conflict with the Maquis would've ended when Cardassia suddenly joined the Dominion and wiped them out, or that the Dominion War would've been ended by Odo curing the Founders and agreeing to go home with them. So why not just wait and see what actually happens? I mean, sure, it can be fun to make conjectures about what might lie ahead in future books, but it doesn't seem to me like you guys are having any fun in these extended debates, and I'm not sure what you hope to gain from them.

 

[rahullak]

Some people like to debate & argue, I suppose.

 

[zarkon]

Some people like to debate & argue, I suppose.

That is so untrue

Let me explain in a few paragraphs precisely why this is a totally specious argu

 

[captcalhoun]

and it's always the same people arguing and bickering with each other and it gets BORING!

haters gonna hate...

 

[JD]

Yeah. All this going around is circles is starting to make me dizzy.

 

[Thestral]

You didn't support "just because there weren't new states formed in all cases doesn't mean there weren't Confederate citizens who put the interests of the United States before their own state".
You're the one moving the goalposts.

And the pro-union confederate citizens, in these cases, were in the minority.

Oh for the love of... it's a matter of public record that volunteers, even whole regiments, fought for the Union from Confederate States. And of course they were a minority.

That was before 72% - which was quite a few posts ago in this thread.
So "I have been saying majority aka not all for some time, Kestrel."

Well, at least you're willing to accept that anyway.

 

[Therin of Andor]

it doesn't seem to me like you guys are having any fun in these extended debates, and I'm not sure what you hope to gain from them.

Beats me that a few fans who have seemingly hated everything about the first four "Typhon Pact" novels keep reading even more of them. And then tie themselves in knots telling us that we should dislike the direction of Trek novels too.

 

[Jarvisimo]

it doesn't seem to me like you guys are having any fun in these extended debates, and I'm not sure what you hope to gain from them.

Beats me that a few fans who have seemingly hated everything about the first four "Typhon Pact" novels keep reading even more of them. And then tie themselves in knots telling us that we should dislike the direction of Trek novels too.

Perhaps they hope for a change (of direction/style/whatever), which is a valuable contribution to any debate - the outsiders who poke at the insiders.

Still, I am glad of current directions, styles and the like. But I think it is important, however tiresome for an insider, to both welcome and accept people who differ in opinions - even over the things we might treasure (which could, however trivially, include current treklit). It would be wrong to barricade those feel like outsiders because they believe differently or complain or whatever else.

 

[Sci]

^^ There's a big difference between people who don't agree with a given creative decision, and people who only read something to trash it and/or the authors.

 

[DimesDan]

another thread ruined by a stupid sidetrack...

Indeed.

I formally request that this thread is closed. The back and forth is tiresome and annoying. But given who it's between, I'm not surprised.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Perhaps they hope for a change (of direction/style/whatever)

I'm sure they do. But I'm not so sure they'd read the result anyway, just as I have my doubts they are reading the current books. Why would anyone read six TTP stories in a row that so disgust them, when there is so much else to read?

which is a valuable contribution to any debate - the outsiders who poke at the insiders.

There are valuable contributions to be made, sure, but there is also stubborn belligerence.

Still, I am glad of current directions, styles and the like. But I think it is important, however tiresome for an insider, to both welcome and accept people who differ in opinions

Again, I have no problem with people having a different opinion to mine, but Edit_XYZ and xortex (in previous threads) for example, are not going to convince me that the Andorians are now the enemy - before the people of Andor have done anything untoward - just because they seceded from the UFP. Edit_XYZ and xortex seem convinced that they know exactly how the whole "Typhon Pact" storyline is going to pan out - before the next books have been published... or even written.

They also seem to forget that the current batch of Pocket/Gallery writers are ST fans, just like their readers. The authors are writing the ST stories that they most want to read, and therefore I'm willing to trust them that their future books will be as entertaining as their current and past ones.

It would be wrong to barricade those feel like outsiders because they believe differently or complain or whatever else.

Who's asking for them to be ousted? I questioned why they'd want to keep reading an extended story arc they find so offensive to their particular tastes.

If we feel the need we can barricade ourselves, somewhat, by placing certain posters on "Ignore". Or we can choose to no longer enter their arguments. I have attempted to contribute my thoughts at times, but the Edit_XYZ counter argument is always a massive, impenetrable, brick wall of rhetoric, and I'm afraid I no longer have the inclination to try again.

 

[zarkon]

Wow

apologies to Dimesdan, since I agree with you about lockage, but since I've just been rather broadly attacked I might as well just set the record straight:

The andorian repro issue I think I've mentioned my dislike aroundabout two, perhaps three times since I joined here, if even that. And....it's not a typhon pact issue. It started way before the TP was formed. I've never had any particular problem with andor joining the pact.

I'm guessing you're angry with me because I noted what I saw as sweeping generalisations on your part or somesuch earlier in this thread? Because I really couldn't have cared any less about the actual argument you and xyz were having, which should be blindingly obvious from all of my posts in this thread.

Thanks for accusing me of having alt accounts too, that was just super.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Thanks for accusing me of having alt accounts too, that was just super.

Well, I was sure xortex was also in this thread, and when I went back and checked it was zarkon instead, so I had to edit you in. Forgive me for mixing up the identities, if the three of you really are separate people.

And yes, I was using the "royal we" in the previous post, of course. I was hoping that Edit_XYZ would pick up that Senator Therin was answering for all of his blue-skinned kin.

 

[zarkon]

Forgive me for mixing up the identities, if the three of you really are separate people.

Annnddd the insults keep on coming.

Think I'll bug out now since you also seem set attributing things to me said by other people, and insulting me again when I try to set the record straight.

Please take it to PM if you really have an issue with things I've said(and it would be nice if they were actually things I have said), though I'm still scratching my head trying to work out why.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Annnddd the insults keep on coming.

No insult intended; I was genuinely confused and trying to clarify.

I have removed references to you in my previous post, since I thought you were xortex.

 

[skylight112]

When I saw this thread I assumed it was about Ezri. I have no problem with Ro being a captain. We have missed several years of action since the initial DS9 relaunch and even then, Ro had been out of starfleet for some time. So for me enough time has passed for her to rise in the ranks. Ro makes a different kind of captain that I find somewhat interesting. I course I would prefer Kira, vedek or not, to be in charge of the station.
I don't like Ezri for a captain though (what I actually thought the thread was about before I read it) The only way I am ok with Ezri as a captain is if the slug completely took over and is "running things" The Dax slug is interesting as a character, Ezri is not.

 

[Christopher]

The only way I am ok with Ezri as a captain is if the slug completely took over and is "running things" The Dax slug is interesting as a character, Ezri is not.

Well, it doesn't work that way. But something marginally similar is what actually happened. In the novels, Ezri finally got past her initial hesitancy to embrace her joined identity and began drawing more fully on the 300 years of experience the symbiont gave her, which proved to be an asset when she decided to switch to the command track.