How the hell is she Captain?

[captcalhoun]

it's not just you, dan, he seems to do that with hyperlinking people's profiles a lot.

 

[JD]

Mulling it over, she has to have had at least the same kind of black mark that worf got against his name when he saved jadzia instead of carrying out his mission.

But then again starfleet are probably hurting so bad for officers they'll allow anyone with experience, and there's no question she has that.

I've noticed that Starfleet does seem to be pretty forgiving when it comes to stuff like what Ro and Worf have done.

 

[Thestral]

As she was portrayed in these books, ever since her symbiont took over, giving her completely new motivations over the ones she had as an unjoined trill, Ezri is a complete sociopath.

Um, we never saw Ezri as an unjoined Trill. She was introduced as joined and so we don't know what her motivations were before joining.

We didn't see her as an unjoined trill, but we were told plenty about her motivations and goals back then - especially if you include trek lit - which you do.

Not really, unless you mean "Get the hell out of Miney-town, be a brave Starfleet officer, don't get a slug in my belly"... in which case, whoopity-dee, since those didn't change after being joined except for getting a slug in her belly which was, well... fait accompli. I mean, I guess unjoined Ezri might not've wanted to do the horizontal tango with Bashir.

Besides all this of course, nothing changed in her relationship with the symbiont in Destiny or A Singular Destiny.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Kestrel

Do watch Ds9 season 7 to see the lack of interest Ezri had in command (she was a counselor by choice and desire) and how the symbiont is responsible for her having romantic feelings toward Bashir.
Do read the ds9 relaunch 'gamma mission' books (and the other ones, to a lesser extent) which describe in some detail how the symbiont rewrote Ezri's motivations - now she's interested in command, etc.

So yes, really, we are told about her previous motivations and goals - and we are shown how the symbiont erases them, replacing them with new ones.


Also - notice how you addressed only a small part of my initial post - one which has little bearing on the conclusion of said post:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=6508384#post6508384

You are essentially arguing that Ezri was always a sociopath. Contrary to your intent, most likely; you should choose the points you argue for more carefully, Kestrel.

 

[Mage]

Kestrel

Do watch Ds9 season 7 to see the lack of interest Ezri had in command (she was a counselor by choice and desire) and how the symbiont is responsible for her having romantic feelings toward Bashir.
Do read the ds9 relaunch 'gamma mission' books (and the other ones, to a lesser extent) which describe in some detail how the symbiont rewrote Ezri's motivations - now she's interested in command, etc.

So yes, really, we are told about her previous motivations and goals - and we are shown how the symbiont erases them, replacing them with new ones.


Also - notice how you addressed only a small part of my initial post - one which has little bearing on the conclusion of said post:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=6508384#post6508384

You are essentially arguing that Ezri was always a sociopath. Contrary to your intent, most likely; you should choose the points you argue for more carefully, Kestrel.

Misinterpret much? You do like stating your personal observation as fact, don't you?
The symbiont never took over. Ezri found she had potential in command by using the experiences and memories of the other hosts. At no point did she stop being Ezri full time, save for a few moments where she was still struggling to get all the hosts' memories organized, because of her lack of training. Nor did the symbiont ever compell her to go that way. All Ezri, baby.
And no-where in season 7 is it ever implied that her feelings for Bashir are because of Jadzia. The only real mentioning of it, is when she tells Bashir that if it hadn't been for Worf, Jadzia would probably have ended up with Bashir. But that's a memory of Jadzia. Never again is it implied/suggested that she falls in love with Bashir because of that.


Now....
I fully realize you will now write a long post giving all your observations as fact, and how we should all follow your lead. Have fun with that. I look forwaring to reading it, and then go on having my own opinion.

 

[Christopher]

It's fundamentally missing the point of the Trill (as defined in DS9, which ignored virtually everything from "The Host") to treat the host and the symbiont as two separate entities. They blend into a complete, inseparable whole, like the two halves of the human brain.

So the symbiont didn't "rewrite" Ezri's motivations, except in the sense that joining replaced Ezri Tigan with a distinct person, Ezri Dax. It took about a year for Ezri Dax to get used to who and what she now was, but once she did, she began drawing on the accumulated knowledge and experience that the symbiont part of her provided, something she'd previously hesitated to do. It was her own choice as a unified being, not something that one piece of her imposed upon the rest.

 

[Mage]

It's fundamentally missing the point of the Trill (as defined in DS9, which ignored virtually everything from "The Host") to treat the host and the symbiont as two separate entities. They blend into a complete, inseparable whole, like the two halves of the human brain.

So the symbiont didn't "rewrite" Ezri's motivations, except in the sense that joining replaced Ezri Tigan with a distinct person, Ezri Dax. It took about a year for Ezri Dax to get used to who and what she now was, but once she did, she began drawing on the accumulated knowledge and experience that the symbiont part of her provided, something she'd previously hesitated to do. It was her own choice as a unified being, not something that one piece of her imposed upon the rest.

Exactly. To suggest the symbiont can actually take over a host doesn't make sense, compared to everything we've learned about Trills in DS9.

 

[Thestral]

Well said Christopher.

Do watch Ds9 season 7 to see the lack of interest Ezri had in command (she was a counselor by choice and desire) and how the symbiont is responsible for her having romantic feelings toward Bashir.
Do read the ds9 relaunch 'gamma mission' books (and the other ones, to a lesser extent) which describe in some detail how the symbiont rewrote Ezri's motivations - now she's interested in command, etc.

So yes, really, we are told about her previous motivations and goals - and we are shown how the symbiont erases them, replacing them with new ones.

No. Just, no. Ezri's a joined, blended being and there's no indication that the symbiont is "responsible" for making her want to knock boots with Bashir (thanks to the joining she would have memories of him and familiarity with him but Ezri Dax /= Jadzia Dax). Ezri's desire for command actually started all the way back in Avatar when she took command of Defiant during the rogue Jem'Hadar attack. People grow and change, you know, and don't always want to do the same thing the did before - and for a blended being like a joined Trill, even more so. After 18 novels Ezri Dax's pursuing command is at least as well-established as her previous desire to be a counselor.

Also - notice how you addressed only a small part of my initial post - one which has little bearing on the conclusion of said post:

You are essentially arguing that Ezri was always a sociopath. Contrary to your intent, most likely; you should choose the points you argue for more carefully, Kestrel.

I addressed the part of your initial post I felt was worth engaging; I reject, of course, your conclusion.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Kestrel

So - yours, Mage's and Christopher's point is that joining with a symbiont automatically changes a person, but that this changed person remains 'the same' - despite having different motivations, personality, etc.
Talk about feel good semantics - but hey, it's supported by empty rhetoric on Christopher's part, so it's all right, yes?

Also - in Ds9 season 7 Ezri heavily implied (if not directly said - it's been a while since i saw it) that the symbiont draw her to Bashir (~"if not for Worf, Bashir would have been the 'chosen one', etc").

Not to mention you all but admitted it in your last post - again, not very self-consistent, Kestrel.


And about how the books heavily depicted Ezri as a sociopath:
I said why this is so - showed examples of where this nis so depicted.

You contradicted none of this part of my post before I specifically drew your attention to it, while showing yourself more than willing to contradict my post. Meaning, your posting structure heavily implied that you can't or don't want to contradict it.
A position you predictably changed once I attracted your attention to it:
Except you and Mage failed to come up with any argument whatsoever in support of your stance - other than irrelevant annoyance at my post.
Needless to say, fan annoyance has no value as an argument; as such, your conclusion (if you can even call it this) has no value.

 

[Mage]

Kestrel

So - yours, Mage's and Christopher's point is that joining with a symbiont automatically changes a person, but that this changed person remains 'the same' - despite having different motivations, personality, etc.
Talk about feel good semantics - but hey, it's supported by empty rhetoric on Christopher's part, so it's all right, yes?

Also - in Ds9 season 7 Ezri heavily implied (if not directly said - it's been a while since i saw it) that the symbiont draw her to Bashir (~"if not for Worf, Bashir would have been the 'chosen one', etc").

Not to mention you all but admitted it in your last post - again, not very self-consistent, Kestrel.


And about how the books heavily depicted Ezri as a sociopath:
I said why this is so - showed examples of where this nis so depicted.

You contradicted none of this part of my post before I specifically drew your attention to it, while showing yourself more than willing to contradict my post. Meaning, your posting structure heavily implied that you can't or don't want to contradict it.
A position you predictably changed once I attracted your attention to it:
Except you and Mage failed to come up with any argument whatsoever in support of your stance - other than irrelevant annoyance at my post.
Needless to say, fan annoyance has no value as an argument; as such, your conclusion (if you can even call it this) has no value.

There are no claims/implications anywhere in DS9 season 7 that Ezri's feelings are drawn from the symbiont. The example you mention is simply Ezri remembering something about Jadzia, in one of the first episodes with Ezri. Her feelings towards Bashir are from the end of the season. At no point in between are there any mentionings of her feelings, or where they come from.

As for Ezri being a sociopath... you claim that this is a true fact from the novels, based on your interpretations of Ezri.
There's one little problem in that little fantasy: The writers didn't write her as a sociopath. And, as much as you may wish it, if the writers don't write a character to be something, that character simply isn't that.
Sure, we all like to read the characters in our own way, but ultimatly it's the writers who decide what sort of person a character is. Not you.

And we have come up with arguments to why we say what we say. You, however, choose to ignore them because they don't serve your point of view. Your lose, not ours.

 

[Mage]

Kestrel

So - yours, Mage's and Christopher's point is that joining with a symbiont automatically changes a person, but that this changed person remains 'the same' - despite having different motivations, personality, etc.
Talk about feel good semantics - but hey, it's supported by empty rhetoric on Christopher's part, so it's all right, yes?

I have to do this seperate from my other post...

You do realise that that is how joined Trills work right? As established by DS9? As in, how the creaters of the show decided Trills should function??
I'm at a lose at how your reasoning works now.... Because Ezri's basicly being a joined Trill, you're complaining?

 

[Christopher]

So - yours, Mage's and Christopher's point is that joining with a symbiont automatically changes a person, but that this changed person remains 'the same' - despite having different motivations, personality, etc.

I never said anything of the kind. In fact, I explicitly said the opposite: that Ezri Dax is a different person from Ezri Tigan. Ezri Dax has personality traits in common with both of her "progenitors," Ezri Tigan and the Dax symbiont, but the composite entity is distinct from either -- just as a child has genetic (and perhaps character) traits in common with both parents but is still a unique and new individual.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Kestrel

So - yours, Mage's and Christopher's point is that joining with a symbiont automatically changes a person, but that this changed person remains 'the same' - despite having different motivations, personality, etc.
Talk about feel good semantics - but hey, it's supported by empty rhetoric on Christopher's part, so it's all right, yes?

I have to do this seperate from my other post...

You do realise that that is how joined Trills work right? As established by DS9? As in, how the creaters of the show decided Trills should function??
I'm at a lose at how your reasoning works now.... Because Ezri's basicly being a joined Trill, you're complaining?

Do you know how joint trills are depicted as working? Apparently not.
Ezri+Dax is a different person from Ezri - established in canon (Ds9), etc.
Normally, the person about to be remade gives her consent for it.
Ezri didn't. And yet, you don't consider it morally suspect to essentially change a person's personality, her very being, without her consent. Wow!

About Dax/Bashir - read Worlds of Ds9, the trill story - the last few lines.

Mage failed to come up with any argument whatsoever in support of your stance - other than irrelevant annoyance at my post.
Needless to say, fan annoyance has no value as an argument; as such, your conclusion (if you can even call it this) has no value.

As for Ezri being a sociopath... you claim that this is a true fact from the novels, based on your interpretations of Ezri.
There's one little problem in that little fantasy: The writers didn't write her as a sociopath. And, as much as you may wish it, if the writers don't write a character to be something, that character simply isn't that.
Sure, we all like to read the characters in our own way, but ultimatly it's the writers who decide what sort of person a character is. Not you.

The writers did not INTEND to write Ezri as a sociopath.
But they most certainly did write her as a sociopath; and if the writers write a character in a certain way - perhaps due to poor planning or to not thinking the things through - then the character is the way she was heavily depicted, NOT the way the writers intended to depict her.
Which is the problem with your little fantasy.

And we have come up with arguments to why we say what we say. You, however, choose to ignore them because they don't serve your point of view. Your lose, not ours.

~"I have an opinion" does NOT count as an argument, Mage.

 

[DimesDan]

Seriously gents.

You've gone way off the original topic that I brought up while drunk a few weeks ago and you've all pretty much agreed that arguing with XYZ is like arguing with a wall.

So why are you continuing? You stop responding to him, he may very well stop responding to you.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Dimesdan

Acting as the discipline comitee with that poster...it never gets old.

 

[Sho]

If you want to complain about 'conflict', you should address your complaints to them.

I'll continue to address my complaint to you, because from where I'm standing, the primary reason any dialog you are a party to tends to devolve into these bickering fests is the way you conduct yourself in them. Your spiel is to write posts that are deliberately provocative in their tone and delivery (they're filled to the brim with subtle little ad hominem attacks), and then you home in on and bounce off of any lack of restraint in the predictably annoyed responses to further the conflict, all the while laying the blame for it at the feet of others and claiming to be the only one sticking to the cold hard facts.

It's unfortunate that rooting out poisonous individuals such as yourself, who are clever enough to skirt being obviously offensive, tends to be so hard, which is why you continue to make a successful career out of this behavior. My hope is that as time goes on enough people will see through that mechanic before it starts seriously and permanently hurting the forum's climate.

Here's my recommendation to everyone: The next time you read a post by Edit_XYZ that pisses you off because it willfully misinterprets what you said or insinuates something that isn't true, instead of replying and matching his style, click the little "Notify the moderator" icon link in his post and in the comment you can add there, explain why you consider his post to be offensive. That's a far more productive use of your energy aimed at the correct audience, because he obviously won't be removing himself as long as it's this fun for him.

 

[JD]

Yeah, I'm officially done responding to any posts he writes. It's pointless trying to have a reasonable conversation with him.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

If you want to complain about 'conflict', you should address your complaints to them.
As for me, I will most definitely not restrict my postings to only points they can 'take' in order to manage their apriori/preconcieved assumptions.

I'll continue to address my complaint to you, because from where I'm standing, the primary reason any dialog you are a party to tends to devolve into these bickering fests is the way you conduct yourself in them. Your spiel is to write posts that are deliberately provocative in their tone and delivery (they're filled to the brim with subtle little ad hominem attacks), and then you home in on and bounce off of any lack of restraint in the predictably annoyed responses to further the conflict, all the while laying the blame for it at the feet of others and claiming to be the only one sticking to the cold hard facts.

Really?
Let's look at this latest discussion, for example.
My initial post lacked any subtle ad hominem or whatever - but it did posit a point that many fans - including yourself - did not like.
The result? Instead of answering my post, these fans resorted to bickering - as in not so subtle ad hominems.

Any post of mine that contains 'subtle ad hominem' - do read the post it's responding to; you'll find it contains some not so subtle ad hominems.

But my posts contain points - argumented ones - that you really can't accept/take, Sho. So you come up with this ad-hoc theory - attacking the poster, not the points made.

It's unfortunate that rooting out poisonous individuals such as yourself, who are clever enough to skirt being obviously offensive, tends to be so hard, which is why you continue to make a successful career out of this behavior. My hope is that as time goes on enough people will see through that mechanic before it starts seriously and permanently hurting the forum's climate.

And here's a whole lot of REALLY not subtle ad hominems. Tell me, does my post addressed to you contains such? If so, SHOW them.

Here's my recommendation to everyone: The next time you read a post by Edit_XYZ that pisses you off because it willfully misinterprets what you said or insinuates something that isn't true, instead of replying and matching his style, click the little "Notify the moderator" icon link in his post and in the comment you can add there, explain why you consider his post to be offensive. That's a far more productive use of your energy aimed at the correct audience, because he obviously won't be removing himself as long as it's this fun for him.

And yet again, ad hominems plenty.
Considering your own behavior, you're in no position to give lessons on proper behavior, Sho.

O, and as I already said multiple times, you have to actually argument WHY my points are a 'misinterpretation' or 'not true' - beyond attacking the poster, that is - for your fan I-want-it-so dictates to have value.

Yeah, I'm officially done responding to any posts he writes. It's pointless trying to have a reasonable conversation with him.

You are free to do just that.

But make no mistake - the reason you do it is your unwillingness to have your fan preconceptions challenged, not some - insert excuse.
Until now, you were not interested in having a 'reasonable discussion', unless you define 'reasonable discussion' as defending to the death your preconceptions by all means necessary.

 

[Sho]

And yet again, ad hominems plenty.
Considering your own behavior, you're in no position to give lessons on proper behavior, Sho.

An ad hominem attack is a logical fallacy that occurs when one choses to belittle their opponents in a debate in order to invalidate their arguments. Since I'm not a participant in the argument being had here, I can hardly be guilty of one. If you're saying that a post specifically dealing with you is, well, dealing specifically with you, then yes, that's very true, but it's ad hominem only in the literal sense of those two words ("to the man"), not an argumentum ad hominem.

(FWIW, I actually considered your argument in the debate not entirely without merit, or at least an interesting way to look at things, though not having read a lot of the books involved yet I deliberately didn't participate since my opinion would be far from qualified.)

As for examples of when you employ argumentum ad hominem (other than chosing to use that particular emoticon up there, by the way), one of your favorite ways of doing so is to cast doubt on the motivations of those holding a particular opinion, dismissing them as "fan annoyance" or the like. This occurs several times in this thread, and in many others.

 

[Thestral]

So - yours, Mage's and Christopher's point is that joining with a symbiont automatically changes a person, but that this changed person remains 'the same' - despite having different motivations, personality, etc.

Yes, and no. What I said was we don't know what her motivations were pre-joining that would have been different than post-joining except for wanting a symbiont, because on the show her post-joining motivations were the same as (what we knew of) her pre-joining motivations. Capiche?

Obviously she becomes a very changed person, but we don't know to what extent at first - though obviously a much greater change happens in Avatar when she begins fully integrating her past lives.

Also - in Ds9 season 7 Ezri heavily implied (if not directly said - it's been a while since i saw it) that the symbiont draw her to Bashir (~"if not for Worf, Bashir would have been the 'chosen one', etc").

As Mage said, this is not true. All it implies is that Jadzia Dax would have started a relationship with Bashir if Worf wasn't around - and several months later Ezri Dax starts one. Note for example how she doesn't seem to have any issue with Bashir hooking up with Sarina.

And about how the books heavily depicted Ezri as a sociopath:
I said why this is so - showed examples of where this nis so depicted.

You contradicted none of this part of my post before I specifically drew your attention to it...

Because it's bunkum with you just declaring "ooh she laughed, she must be a psychopath."

Normally, the person about to be remade gives her consent for it.
Ezri didn't. And yet, you don't consider it morally suspect to essentially change a person's personality, her very being, without her consent. Wow!

Actually, no. Ezri did give her consent, and this was a very particular point in The Lives of Dax. It was an emergency situation and the symbiont only had a half hour to live, but Destiny's doctor and the Symbiosis Commission were very specific that she had to consent.

About Dax/Bashir - read Worlds of Ds9, the trill story - the last few lines.

Here's the last four paragraphs of "Unjoined":

Spoiler: Text

"I hope you don't mind my telling you that I still love you," he said, fixing his eyes back on the interstellar void ahead. "I think I always will."

Her fingers felt cold against his as she squeezed his hand. "And I'll always love you too, Julian." A brief sideways glance told him that her gaze now faced front as well.

Very gently, he released her hand. She withdrew it. Whatever cord had connected them romantically seemed to snap with the gesture. They were friends now. Dear friends, and colleagues.

The Rio Grande continued hurtling homeward, mere hours away from Deep Space Nine. And though Ezri remained seated beside him, the blackness of space seemed not nearly so deep and cold as the gulf that now yawned between them.

What about it?

The writers did not INTEND to write Ezri as a sociopath.
But they most certainly did write her as a sociopath.

That's your interpretation, but obviously other people disagree.

Seriously gents.

You've gone way off the original topic that I brought up while drunk a few weeks ago and you've all pretty much agreed that arguing with XYZ is like arguing with a wall.

So why are you continuing? You stop responding to him, he may very well stop responding to you.

Tilting at windmills can be an amusing pastime?