How the hell is she Captain?

[DigificWriter]

^ PoN also says the following about the Andorian reaction. From the same page (which is Page 212 in my print copy):

An engineer on the station for more than two years, Rahendervakell th'Shant had reacted to Andor's secession the way many Andorians in Starfleet had: with a mixture of confusion, depression, and anger. Many became conflicted about whether to remain in the service or return to their homeworld. Not only had some stayed and some gone, but some had left and then come back, while others had at first stayed and then gone later.

That description speaks to exactly what I said. The general reaction among Andorians serving in Starfleet seems to have been one of 'cutting ties'. We don't know this with 100% certainty, but the general implication - based on that description - is that, even if not every sine Andorian who left Starfleet may have done so in order to intentionally cut all ties with the Federation, their exodus effectively had the effect of signaling such.

 

[Sci]

^ PoN also says the following about the Andorian reaction. From the same page (which is Page 212 in my print copy):

An engineer on the station for more than two years, Rahendervakell th'Shant had reacted to Andor's secession the way many Andorians in Starfleet had: with a mixture of confusion, depression, and anger. Many became conflicted about whether to remain in the service or return to their homeworld. Not only had some stayed and some gone, but some had left and then come back, while others had at first stayed and then gone later.

That description speaks to exactly what I said. The general reaction among Andorians serving in Starfleet seems to have been one of 'cutting ties'.

Your page 212 quote actually supports the opposite assertion -- it explicitly establishes that many Andorians have many different reactions. Nothing about that quote establishes that the general reaction is to cut ties. Indeed, it explicitly states, "Not only had some stayed and some gone, but some had left and then come back, while others had at first stayed and then gone later."

Bottom line:

We the readers may have to face the possibility that these are individual characters with different beliefs, motives, and loyalties, and that we as readers can't just assume any given Andorian thinks one way or the other about something. We may have to actually treat these characters as individuals rather than fictitious stereotypes.

 

[DigificWriter]

The general IMPLICATION signaled by the Andorian exodus from Starfleet is one of 'cutting ties'. There were likely many different specific reasons driving the exodus on an individual and personal level, but based on what PoN tells us and the way the Andorian government announced the decision to secede in PoD, the general appearance of the situation is that many Andorians cut ties with the Federation and Starfleet.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Your comparison with California, etc fails:
"The federation has more in common with the EU than with the USA regarding integration of its member species. Indeed, even within the EU the member states are better integrated than the member species in the federation."

Repeating your assertion does not make it an accurate assertion. You have yet to provide any details on WHY you assert that the Federation is less well-integrated than

Have you read PoD, canon/books dealing with vulcans, other federation member species?
They and their societies have little in common with humans and their society. Starting with culture and values and ending with their very psychology.

About 'Plagues of night' - establishing that most andorian starfleet officers chose Andor. As said, this regards starfleet officers who swore a loyalty oath to the federation and starfleet. For non-starfleet andorians the situation is even more straightforward.

As for the rest of your post, I already answered it. You're merely repeating already refuted arguments.
To be more precise, your argument boils down to: ~It is possible that the andorian representatives.other andorians in key positions will remain loyal to the federation, not Andor. It may be possible, Sci, but it's improbable; and it's all but impossible that ALL andorians in key positions will do so.

 

[Sci]

The general IMPLICATION signaled by the Andorian exodus from Starfleet is one of 'cutting ties'.

But nothing about the page 212 quote implies anything of the sort. Nothing in there gives us any sense of what the general reaction actually is. The most we know is that there are a wide variety of reactions, and that 72% of Andorians at Deep Space 9 left Starfleet. That's it. We don't know anything else. We don't know how many Andorians were "cutting ties," we don't know how many Andorians were returning to Andor for other reasons than putting Andor ahead of the UFP, and we don't know how many Andorians in general are more loyal to one or the other.

ETA:

Repeating your assertion does not make it an accurate assertion. You have yet to provide any details on WHY you assert that the Federation is less well-integrated than

Have you read PoD, canon/books dealing with vulcans, other federation member species?
They and their societies have little in common with humans and their society. Starting with culture and values and ending with their very psychology.

Once again:

Repeating your assertion does not make it stronger. Provide details. Evidence. Rephrasing your claim does not make it true.

About 'Plagues of night' - establishing that most andorian starfleet officers chose Andor.

No. Plagues of Night establishes no such thing. It establishes that 28 of 39 Andorian officers at DS9 chose to resign their commissions, and it establishes that Andorian officers have had a wide variety of reactions. That's it. It never once establishes what percentage of total Andorian officers in the Federation Starfleet leave Starfleet or choose to put Andor ahead of the UFP.

To be more precise, your argument boils down to: ~It is possible that the andorian representatives.other andorians in key positions will remain loyal to the federation, not Andor.

It would be more accurate to say that my claim is that we cannot assume one way or the other how any given Andorian will react.

 

[captcalhoun]

another thread ruined by a stupid sidetrack...

 

[Thestral]

The andorians voted in a democratic referendum to leave the federation, enter the Typhon Pact.
Are you under the impression that the andorians - even the ones who voted against those - will cease to be in first place loyal to Andor and its people? Is this how you think democratic countries work? Really?

Are you just unfamiliar with real history - for example the US Civil War? When the 11 Confederate States voted in a democratic referendum to leave the Union, did all of their citizens abandon all loyalty to the United States? Not at all, in fact in one case an entirely new state, West Virginia, was formed by a re-secession, and East Tennessee's attempt to secede from the Confederacy back to the Union was only stopped by martial law. Kentucky and Missouri, while technically never out of the Union, had Confederate-approved "governments-in-exile." Soldiers from the seceding states fought on both sides of the war and Sherman was personally escorted by the Unionist 1st Alabama Cavalry Regiment (though it mostly consisted of Tennesseans) during his March to the Sea.

An extreme example, but there's no reason to think that after 200 years (instead of "four score and seven") there wouldn't be Andorians who put their loyalty to the Federation over a secessionist Andor.

2. Plagues of Night also makes it clear that a number of Andorian Starfleet officers stay in the Federation Starfleet after Andor secedes from the UFP. Including at least one whose loyalty to the Federation is brought into question but then exonerated.

As I asserted above, this is very much a case-by-case thing. We can't generalize it.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

The general IMPLICATION signaled by the Andorian exodus from Starfleet is one of 'cutting ties'.

But nothing about the page 212 quote implies anything of the sort. Nothing in there gives us any sense of what the general reaction actually is. The most we know is that there are a wide variety of reactions, and that 72% of Andorians at Deep Space 9 left Starfleet. That's it. We don't know anything else. We don't know how many Andorians were "cutting ties," we don't know how many Andorians were returning to Andor for other reasons than putting Andor ahead of the UFP, and we don't know how many Andorians in general are more loyal to one or the other.

Your argument would only make sense if ~72% of the andorians were usually leaving starfleet before Andor's secession, if this 72% is not a peak.

But is is a peak - determined by Andor's secession. Given that all other motivations for leaving starfleet do not amount to something even close to 72%, most of this percentage is determined by andorian choosing Andor over the federation.

 

[Sci]

The general IMPLICATION signaled by the Andorian exodus from Starfleet is one of 'cutting ties'.

But nothing about the page 212 quote implies anything of the sort. Nothing in there gives us any sense of what the general reaction actually is. The most we know is that there are a wide variety of reactions, and that 72% of Andorians at Deep Space 9 left Starfleet. That's it. We don't know anything else. We don't know how many Andorians were "cutting ties," we don't know how many Andorians were returning to Andor for other reasons than putting Andor ahead of the UFP, and we don't know how many Andorians in general are more loyal to one or the other.

Your argument would only make sense if ~72% of the andorians were usually leaving starfleet before Andor's secession, if this 72% is not a peak.

And where N=39, any rudimentary statistics class would make it clear that N is not a sufficiently large enough sample size to draw valid statistical conclusions from it.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

The andorians voted in a democratic referendum to leave the federation, enter the Typhon Pact.
Are you under the impression that the andorians - even the ones who voted against those - will cease to be in first place loyal to Andor and its people? Is this how you think democratic countries work? Really?

Are you just unfamiliar with real history - for example the US Civil War? When the 11 Confederate States voted in a democratic referendum to leave the Union, did all of their citizens abandon all loyalty to the United States? Not at all, in fact in one case an entirely new state, West Virginia, was formed by a re-secession, and East Tennessee's attempt to secede from the Confederacy back to the Union was only stopped by martial law. Kentucky and Missouri, while technically never out of the Union, had Confederate-approved "governments-in-exile." Soldiers from the seceding states fought on both sides of the war and Sherman was personally escorted by the Unionist 1st Alabama Cavalry Regiment (though it mostly consisted of Tennesseans) during his March to the Sea.

So - has a new pro-federation andorian state been formed after Andor's secession? Or has a part of Andor tried to reenter the federation? Etc?
All you presented here are straw-men. Highly unimpressive.

An extreme example, but there's no reason to think that after 200 years (instead of "four score and seven") there wouldn't be Andorians who put their loyalty to the Federation over a secessionist Andor.

If you were actually familiar with history, you would know that the vast majrity of the population of a newly formed country (by secession, etc) is loyal to this new country, not the old one.

 

[Sci]

The andorians voted in a democratic referendum to leave the federation, enter the Typhon Pact.
Are you under the impression that the andorians - even the ones who voted against those - will cease to be in first place loyal to Andor and its people? Is this how you think democratic countries work? Really?

Are you just unfamiliar with real history - for example the US Civil War? When the 11 Confederate States voted in a democratic referendum to leave the Union, did all of their citizens abandon all loyalty to the United States? Not at all, in fact in one case an entirely new state, West Virginia, was formed by a re-secession, and East Tennessee's attempt to secede from the Confederacy back to the Union was only stopped by martial law. Kentucky and Missouri, while technically never out of the Union, had Confederate-approved "governments-in-exile." Soldiers from the seceding states fought on both sides of the war and Sherman was personally escorted by the Unionist 1st Alabama Cavalry Regiment (though it mostly consisted of Tennesseans) during his March to the Sea.

An extreme example, but there's no reason to think that after 200 years (instead of "four score and seven") there wouldn't be Andorians who put their loyalty to the Federation over a secessionist Andor.

Exactly. And that's to say nothing of other historical parallels, such as when the Québécois Prime Minister of Canada, Pierre Trudeau, when confronted with a violent movement pushing for Québécois secession from Canada, chose to invoke the War Measures Act and put troops on the streets in Québec and Ottawa rather than to support secession. Clearly political leaders can put their loyalties to the larger federal unions ahead of their loyalties to their home provinces.

So - has a new pro-federation andorian state been formed after Andor's secession? Or has a part of Andor tried to reenter the federation? Etc?

Who knows? Some people don't like trying to make assertions about what will happen in books that haven't been released yet.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

But nothing about the page 212 quote implies anything of the sort. Nothing in there gives us any sense of what the general reaction actually is. The most we know is that there are a wide variety of reactions, and that 72% of Andorians at Deep Space 9 left Starfleet. That's it. We don't know anything else. We don't know how many Andorians were "cutting ties," we don't know how many Andorians were returning to Andor for other reasons than putting Andor ahead of the UFP, and we don't know how many Andorians in general are more loyal to one or the other.

Your argument would only make sense if ~72% of the andorians were usually leaving starfleet before Andor's secession, if this 72% is not a peak.

And where N=39, any rudimentary statistics class would make it clear that N is not a sufficiently large enough sample size to draw valid statistical conclusions from it.

Cute.
You never had this problem when you argued that 72% meant that a large fraction of andorians remained loyal to the federation.
Newsflash - if that's how you want to play it, the numbers are worthless as arguments for your conclusions, as well.

Of course, we're talking about a fictional universe, presented only in small fragments - and the intent is to use these fragments, the special case of DS9, to present starfleet in general.
So, within this fictional universe, these numbers are very much relevant.

So - has a new pro-federation andorian state been formed after Andor's secession? Or has a part of Andor tried to reenter the federation? Etc?

Who knows? Some people don't like trying to make assertions about what will happen in books that haven't been released yet.

Grasping at straws, eh?
As said:
"To be more precise, your argument boils down to: ~It is possible that the andorian representatives/other andorians in key positions will remain loyal to the federation, not Andor.
It may be possible, Sci, but it's improbable; and it's all but impossible that ALL andorians in key positions will do so."
Your present assumption is REALLY improbable.

You actually reproach me bringing into the discussion a fact directly established in an interview by a writer while implying such out-there speculations?

 

[Sci]

Your argument would only make sense if ~72% of the andorians were usually leaving starfleet before Andor's secession, if this 72% is not a peak.

And where N=39, any rudimentary statistics class would make it clear that N is not a sufficiently large enough sample size to draw valid statistical conclusions from it.

Cute.
You never had this problem when you argued that 72% meant that a large fraction of andorians remained loyal to the federation.

I did not argue that the 28% of Andorian officers at DS9 who stayed in Starfleet meant that a large fraction of Andorians remained loyal to the Federation. I argued that we don't know.

Of course, we're talking about a fictional universe, presented only a fraction at a time - and the intent is to use the special case of DS9 to present starfleet in general.

If DRGIII personally verifies that around 70% of all Andorian Starfleet officers left Starfleet because they were more loyal to Andor than the UFP, then I'll buy it.

Until then, N=39 is not a valid sample size and I'm not going to try to draw any conclusions about the percentage of Andorians who left Starfleet, or of Andorians who are more loyal to Andor than the UFP.

 

[Thestral]

So - has a new pro-federation andorian state been formed after Andor's secession? Or has a part of Andor tried to reenter the federation? Etc?
All you presented here are straw-men. Highly unimpressive.

What does that matter? Your claim was that the Andorians would, no matter how they voted, be in lockstep with how the vote turned out and would put loyalty to Andor first and I proved that that hasn't been the case in the real world. Confederate State citizens were not in lockstep with how the votes in their states turned out and didn't put loyalty to Virginia/Tennessee/Alabama/Texas/etc first. If a new Andorian state is formed that chooses to seek readmission to the Federation a la West Virginia it will further the strength of my analogy, but it's not needed.

If you really do know history, you know that most of the population of the newly formed country is loyal to this new country, not the old one.

I'm sorry, did you just say "most"? So... not "all"? Glad you admit my point that there will be Andorians who put their loyalty to the Federation over their loyalty to Andor.

Also, would you prefer the American Revolution? A reasonable consensus is that 40-45% of the population supported the rebellion, 15-20% were loyalists, and the rest just kept their heads down. Not all loyal to the new country.

ETA: Thanks, Sci, for bringing up Trudeau, good point.

 

[rfmcdpei]

rfmcdpei

"It's not a misnomer at all. "Devastation" can be used to describe events which differ fundamentally in scale as, say, a small town in Indiana being devastated by a tornado, New Orleans being wiped out by flooding, or the continental United States being wrecked by a nuclear attack."

'small town', 'New Orleans', 'USA'?
In PoD it is the federation that is devastated. Not a small colony or whatever.
The federation is the scale we're talking about.

Point.

The Federation can also be devastated to varying degrees. A United States that was devastated coast-to-coast by tornados would differ from a United States that was devastated coast-to-coast by nuclear explosions, notwithstanding the applicability of the term "devastation" to both situations.

As said, the 'lowest' (a misnomer) degree of devastation STILL implies huge loss.

Is Andorian secession noteworthy, a blow? Yes. Is it less catastrophic to the Federation than the deaths of tens of billion of people and the destruction of dozens of inhabited worlds by the Borg? Unquestionably.

There are fine details that you're missing, here, but these details actually mean quite a lot.

And 'lowest' is a misnomer.

How?

 

[Edit_XYZ]

And where N=39, any rudimentary statistics class would make it clear that N is not a sufficiently large enough sample size to draw valid statistical conclusions from it.

Cute.
You never had this problem when you argued that 72% meant that a large fraction of andorians remained loyal to the federation.

I did not argue that the 28% of Andorian officers at DS9 who stayed in Starfleet meant that a large fraction of Andorians remained loyal to the Federation. I argued that we don't know.

You argued that a large fraction of the andorians will stay loyal to the federation throughout this entire thread.

Of course, we're talking about a fictional universe, presented only a fraction at a time - and the intent is to use the special case of DS9 to present starfleet in general.

If DRGIII personally verifies that around 70% of all Andorian Starfleet officers left Starfleet because they were more loyal to Andor than the UFP, then I'll buy it.

Until then, N=39 is not a valid sample size and I'm not going to try to draw any conclusions about the percentage of Andorians who left Starfleet, or of Andorians who are more loyal to Andor than the UFP.

Hope springs eternal, eh?
Just to make clear - even these numbers regarding DS9 station alone are statistically relevant, assuming the rate of andorian demisions skyrocketed from, let's say, 10% to 72%. Either the difference is caused by Andor's secession, or it's a highly improbable freak event.

Of course, as already said (apparently, I have to repeat myself ~thrice before you actually take notice) this analysis is irrelevant in the trekverse - a fictional universe, created by representative small bits depicted in canon, novels, etc.
If you don't generalize what's established in these, you HAVE NO UNIVERSE. The intent of the writers is to expose the general by examples.
'Plagues of night' and 72% is no different. Feel free to play 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil', though.


rfmcdpei
At least read the definition of the word 'disastrous' before responding.
Really - you can find it by a simple google search.

 

[DigificWriter]

Sci: Pretend for a moment that you are an ordinary citizen of the Federation observing the events described in PoD. You aren't privy to inside details and simply see the Andorian secession followed by an exodus of Andorians from Starfleet. Would you or wouldn't you perceive the exodus as a further sign of the Andorians cutting all ties with the Federation?

The general appearance and implication presented by PoN is that the exodus of Andorian Starfleet personnel represents a cutting of ties with the Federation as part and parcel of the secession.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

So - has a new pro-federation andorian state been formed after Andor's secession? Or has a part of Andor tried to reenter the federation? Etc?
All you presented here are straw-men. Highly unimpressive.

What does that matter? Your claim was that the Andorians would, no matter how they voted, be in lockstep with how the vote turned out and would put loyalty to Andor first and I proved that that hasn't been the case in the real world. Confederate State citizens were not in lockstep with how the votes in their states turned out and didn't put loyalty to Virginia/Tennessee/Alabama/Texas/etc first. If a new Andorian state is formed that chooses to seek readmission to the Federation a la West Virginia it will further the strength of my analogy, but it's not needed.

You proved that when this is not the case in the real world, there are visible manifestations - you know, a new state being formed, etc.
Meaning, yes, you DO need such new states, etc for your argument. Without them, your argument is a straw-man.

If you really do know history, you know that most of the population of the newly formed country is loyal to this new country, not the old one.

I'm sorry, did you just say "most"? So... not "all"? Glad you admit my point that there will be Andorians who put their loyalty to the Federation over their loyalty to Andor.

I have been saying majority aka not all for some time, Kestrel

 

[rfmcdpei]

QUOTE=Edit_XYZ;6459994]Of course, we're talking about a fictional universe, presented only in small fragments - and the intent is to use these fragments, the special case of DS9, to present starfleet in general.
So, within this fictional universe, these numbers are very much relevant.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I agree with you here on this one. The overwhelming reaction does seem, in the end, to have been to cut ties with the Federation, although there was a lot of vacillation, too.

So - has a new pro-federation andorian state been formed after Andor's secession? Or has a part of Andor tried to reenter the federation? Etc?

Who knows? Some people don't like trying to make assertions about what will happen in books that haven't been released yet. [/QUOTE]

Grasping at straws, eh?
As said:
"To be more precise, your argument boils down to: ~It is possible that the andorian representatives/other andorians in key positions will remain loyal to the federation, not Andor.
It may be possible, Sci, but it's improbable; and it's all but impossible that ALL andorians in key positions will do so."

Your present assumption is REALLY improbable.

Not necessarily. Even in the case of Quebec, not only the substantial Anglophone and First Nations populations but even many Francophones would have wanted to stay in Canada (to say nothing of French Canadians outside of Quebec). The possibility of a partition of a Quebec that voted for independence into a Canadian north and west and an independent centre and east, with Montreal divided, was very real for a time in the 1990s.

Is the Andorian state going to break up? We lack information. We do know that there are pronounced cultural and racial divides among the Andorians, and that the Andorians are a multiplanetary species. Conceivably, some pro-Federation planetary communities might try to break away. Then again, the relatively strong majority in favour of independence--it's been characterized as not unanimous but decisive in Paths of Disharmony and again in George's most recent book--makes me think that there wasn't such a strong pro-Federation constituency.

 

[zarkon]

another thread ruined by a stupid sidetrack...

Didn't you know Ro Laren is a secret embedded andorian