How ST can be "canon" and still have new technology

[Miri9]

It could be this idea has been posted...the movie opens with Pike era costumes, bridge, computer...then the main characters beam somewhere and when they return, they find themselves in an alternative univsrse with better uniforms and technology - a twist on Mirror, Mirror - and the storyline plays out from there - then all is restored at the end...I have seen worse!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Better technology or better props and SFX representing that technology?

 

[Lumen]

Plus, who's to say we saw all the technology that exists in the 23rd century?

 

[Matt]

Star Trek will be canonical, but on a tangent.

The original Star Trek canon, which runs from Star Trek Enterprise to Star Trek Nemesis is in tact and will forever remain Star Trek 1.0.

The new movie has enough changes in it that after just five minutes of watching it, everyone will know that it's a new take on the great story.

Think of it this way...

Is the Devil a man or a woman? Is the Devil a person or a red guy with horns, hooves, and a tail? Whatever he looks like, he's still the Devil. Is Jesus a white guy with a white cotton robe, or is he an Israeli with tattered clothes?

If you can't understand that you can essentially tell a story with the same roots, but make it fresh and new by twisting things, then this movie won't be for you, and I suggest you don't bring Star Trek fandom down by making a fuss about it.

 

[HRHTheKING]

Just establish a new canon line.

It can have most elements of the previous canon line, but with changes wherever deemed necessary.

 

[cultcross]

HRHTheKING said:
Just establish a new canon line.

It can have most elements of the previous canon line, but with changes wherever deemed necessary.

i never really understood why Trek producers are so scared of doing this openly. They could have done it for ENT, avoided any of the continuity arguments, and use dthe ready made, barely-a-stretch reason of Frist Contact for a 'new timeline' which had been handed to them on a platter. But instead they pressed ahead with 'no, it's the same continuity' and caused themselves problems which could have been easily avoided. From JJ's comments to date, they seem to be doing it again.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Matt said:
I suggest you don't bring Star Trek fandom down by making a fuss about it.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. Maybe I shall just bite my tongue. Can fandom really be brought down on a ST bbs by ST fans speculately about ST to other fans?

No matter. I'm looking forward to seeing the new Star Trek movie. I read all the books and comics and they are by hundreds of authors, with no expectation that everything will always agree with each other. I do a kind of shorthanded mental editing as I read and each story stands on its on merits anyway. No reason why we can't do this for the upcoming movie. If, for the sake of telling a gripping story in 2008, we end up with a Star Trek movie that postulates slightly (or even hugely) different angles on things than we saw previously, who cares.

 

[Therin of Andor]

christingle said:
i never really understood why Trek producers are so scared of doing this openly.

From a marketing standpoint, it's never a good idea to say, "Forget everything you ever knew about...", because you're trying to bring into the project as many people with varying degrees of interest in ST as possible.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Matt said:
If you can't understand that you can essentially tell a story with the same roots, but make it fresh and new by twisting things, then this movie won't be for you, and I suggest you don't bring Star Trek fandom down by making a fuss about it.

Matt, this sort of remark really is not necessary. The purpose of this very FORUM is to discuss the movie and our thoughts and feelings about it.

If you can't stand other fans having an opinion different from yours, then I suggest that the problem is very much yours - not theirs.

 

[Matt]

Cindy, the problem is theirs, not mine. Go back into the archives around 2001, and re-familiarize yourself with the stink raised by anti-Enterprise Trekkies. Their counterproductivity and ranting really made Trekkies look like fools at times. I predict a MASSIVE amount of nitpicking and complaining as soon as the teaser hits.

Therin, I simply meant that I can easily see a small amount of fans making a big stink about it. Remember when Enterprise was announced, and people went nuts saying there was never an Enterprise in Starfleet before NCC-1701? Imagine how those people will act when they see the ideas and ingredients of Star Trek brought into the 21st century, finally. I believe TRUE fans will enjoy it. It'll have a lot of the same qualities we've grown to love, and some of the smaller features that we expect... McCoy will be just as xenophobic and anti-Vulcan as ever. Kirk will still have his Hornblower swashbuckling sense of adventure, warmth, and honesty. ETC. False fans get hung up on the details. Details which are interesting and entertaining, but do not make Star Trek Star Trek.

Their arguments are void anyway. How can someone argue about the design of the uniform, or the design of the ship, when the design of the CHARACTERS are completely different? Last time I checked, Takei doesn't look or sound like Cho. The only person to come remotely close visually is Quinto.

Star Trek 1.0 is canon. Star Trek 2.0 is canon. There will likely be no more Star Trek 1.0 stories that are officially canonical, but fans will always have great productions like New Voyages.

ALSO to be considered is the thought of canon itself. The popular use of the term comes from the understanding of how the Catholic church has over history arbitrarily collected, censored, and/or removed books from the bible. The cast away books are called apocryphal, but does that mean they never existed, or that they aren't just as important? The Animated Series should be considered just as valid as The Original Series, for example. Lets not worry about what fits with canon. The big picture should be about what is entertaining, good Star Trek.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Matt said:
Cindy, the problem is theirs, not mine. Go back into the archives around 2001, and re-familiarize yourself with the stink raised by anti-Enterprise Trekkies. Their counterproductivity and ranting really made Trekkies look like fools at times. I predict a MASSIVE amount of nitpicking and complaining as soon as the teaser hits.

Therin, I simply meant that I can easily see a small amount of fans making a big stink about it. Remember when Enterprise was announced, and people went nuts saying there was never an Enterprise in Starfleet before NCC-1701? Imagine how those people will act when they see the ideas and ingredients of Star Trek brought into the 21st century, finally. I believe TRUE fans will enjoy it. It'll have a lot of the same qualities we've grown to love, and some of the smaller features that we expect... McCoy will be just as xenophobic and anti-Vulcan as ever. Kirk will still have his Hornblower swashbuckling sense of adventure, warmth, and honesty. ETC. False fans get hung up on the details. Details which are interesting and entertaining, but do not make Star Trek Star Trek.

Their arguments are void anyway. How can someone argue about the design of the uniform, or the design of the ship, when the design of the CHARACTERS are completely different? Last time I checked, Takei doesn't look or sound like Cho. The only person to come remotely close visually is Quinto.

Star Trek 1.0 is canon. Star Trek 2.0 is canon. There will likely be no more Star Trek 1.0 stories that are officially canonical, but fans will always have great productions like New Voyages.

ALSO to be considered is the thought of canon itself. The popular use of the term comes from the understanding of how the Catholic church has over history arbitrarily collected, censored, and/or removed books from the bible. The cast away books are called apocryphal, but does that mean they never existed, or that they aren't just as important? The Animated Series should be considered just as valid as The Original Series, for example. Lets not worry about what fits with canon. The big picture should be about what is entertaining, good Star Trek.

Matt, the thing is that everything at this point is conjecture, and most of all, OPINION.

And here's a news flash: Your OPINION isn't any better or worse than anyone else's OPINION in this forum. Opinions are like bellybuttons - everyone's got one, and one isn't any better than another.

You believe you're right - they believe they're right. But to tell someone that they are 'bringing down Trek fandom' simply for having an opinion different from yours is not cool, and will not be tolerated.

If people want to nitpick the movie, that is their right. If they wanna worry about the costumes, that is also their right. If you want to address those TOPICS, that is fine. However, any further personal attacks on a POSTER rather than on an IDEA will earn you a warning for trolling.

Now, let's not clutter up this thread arguing about it. If you still have an issue, please take it to PM.

Thanks.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Matt said:
There will likely be no more Star Trek 1.0 stories that are officially canonical

Huh? For TOS perhaps, but only because the original cast is either ageing or dying out, and that was putting an end to any chance of canonical adventures about their early days. There's nothing to say that the original TNG/DS9/VOY or ENT casts won't ever make a reunion movie in a decade or so, and it won't necessarily have to be a reboot or remake in any shape or form.

In any case, the canon rules were those of the long-defunct Star Trek Office at Paramount, which closed with Roddenberry's death in 1991, and the dismissal of Richard Arnold. It was only ever a way of stating that tie-ins did not inform the parent material. No one at Paramount/CBS has ever made a retraction on "canon", but then no one's ever revised the rules or made a new ruling. Paula Block, of CBS Consumer Products, treats every ST tie-in manuscript on a case-by-case basis and she'll continue to have the fans' and copyright owners' best interests at heart when she checks each manuscript.

Fans no longer need to obsess over "What is canon".

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I've always believed that there is, and always will be, only one continuity in Trek. Anything that appears to deviate from that, can be easily rationalized away.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Exactly. How many official histories of World War I and World War II disagree?

 

[HRHTheKING]

christingle said:

HRHTheKING said:
Just establish a new canon line.

It can have most elements of the previous canon line, but with changes wherever deemed necessary.

i never really understood why Trek producers are so scared of doing this openly. They could have done it for ENT, avoided any of the continuity arguments, and use dthe ready made, barely-a-stretch reason of Frist Contact for a 'new timeline' which had been handed to them on a platter. But instead they pressed ahead with 'no, it's the same continuity' and caused themselves problems which could have been easily avoided. From JJ's comments to date, they seem to be doing it again.

I completely agree. All they have to do is say "look this next movie/TV series/whatever isn't going to adhere to previous canon entirely, some things will be different for dramatic purposes" and that's it.

It doesn't have to be a drastic departure. So for example, the Klingons won't suddenly become swirls of energy, but a few things just as dates, times, birthplaces, Academy graduations, ages, technological capability etc...can be altered.

 

[Therin of Andor]

HRHTheKING said:
All they have to do is say "... some things will be different for dramatic purposes" and that's it.

Which is essentially what JJ Abrams has said. Along the lines of: he and his team being fans of ST themselves, are respectful of what's come before them, and therefore the story can be considered to fit within established canon, but that some tweaks are being made to make Star Trek suitable for broader 2008 audiences and the possibilities of modern SPFX.

They are not saying they will be slavish to all existing continuity, and they're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater by dumping everything either.

 

[Who_Trek]

Who cares!? It's a new ST movie, for God's sake!

 

[Basil]

Hmm. I've never understood the desire to deviate from it. If people don't want to stick to the established "universe," then create another one and call the movie something else. Otherwise, the whole thing stinks of a lack of creativity and courage.

 

[HRHTheKING]

I think the opposite is true. Changing a few things is a sign of creativity IMO. It's courageous too because declaring the creation of a second canon would no doubt raise some dissent among certain sections of this fanbase.

 

[EyalM]

The enterprise can be a giant banana in the movie, and it will still be canon if that's what Paramount says. That's the way these things work. The only thing left for the more obsessive fans to do, is to try to rationalize it (see Klingon ridges).