How Powerful is Cardassia?

[jmampilly]

If Cardassia isn't powerful, how is it that they managed to do well against the Federation in the Border Wars? The Federation may not necessarily have put its full strength into the conflict initiallu, but surely after incidents like Setlik III, the Federation would use enough force to discontinue further Cardassian agression.

 

[Dream]

I thought it was pretty crazy that they implied in later episodes that the first Federation and Cardassian war was taking place during season 2 of TNG. It would have been nice if we heard something like was going on in the background during that season.

 

[jmampilly]

I thought it was pretty crazy that they implied in later episodes that the first Federation and Cardassian war was taking place during season 2 of TNG. It would have been nice if we heard something like was going on in the background during that season.

I guess that's a testament to the size of the Federation. There can be a war on one side of the Federation that isn't even relevant to the other areas that are far away from the fighting. This is especially true when fighting a weaker power, like Cardassia.

But yes, it is kind of annoying.

 

[Timo]

If Cardassia isn't powerful, how is it that they managed to do well against the Federation in the Border Wars? The Federation may not necessarily have put its full strength into the conflict initiallu, but surely after incidents like Setlik III, the Federation would use enough force to discontinue further Cardassian agression.

The British Empire was far more motivated than that in Afghanistan a couple of centuries ago. They still lost to a bunch of nomads whose weapons technology, fighting skill and manpower were leagues below what the Empire could theoretically muster.

"Border Wars" really carries the connotation that these were fought far from UFP centers of power. But that's the UFP name for the conflict; for Cardassians, the battles might be at their very heartlands, within easy logistical reach.

(Although here it should be pointed that logistics in the current military sense don't necessarily apply to Trek warfare at all. Fighting in Trek might be virtually logistics-free the way it was until the late iron age; the subsequent problems of ammunition supply, food supply and fuel supply would have ceased to apply, as Starfleet guns don't use ammunition, Starfleet troopers can make their food out of thin air on the field, and Starfleet fuel for the previous two applications plus surface transportation or whatnot is a triviality compared with the fuel they have available for moving between stars.)

But yes, it is kind of annoying.

Not to mention consistent... All of the ongoing or past wars in Star Trek were introduced just as nonchalantly. We just then got the chance to observe a single war in brewing, and got spoiled by the experience.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

The term "Border Wars" also indicates a series of engagements rather than one long protracted one.

 

[TheSubCommander]

I always thought Cardassia was powerful enough that the UFP didn't want a war with, but if it really had to fight a full scale war, it could wipe the floor with Cardassia.

I look at it like this: prior to TNG series, during the Border Wars, Cardassia probably was a very strong empire before and up to the Border Wars: they were strong enough to have a certain amount of hubris to take on the UFP. But that war, while fought to a stalemate and it ended before there was a clear victor, broke the Cardassian economy in the end. The UFP just ended up with a bloody nose, but it was able to recover quickly. Cardasia couldn't. This would explain why Cardassia couldn't maintain its holdings, like with Bajor, and had to withdraw from some conquered territories, not unlike how the British and French Empires declined after WW2, and had to give up some territories, in order for the main country to survive.

When the Cardassians tried to invade Dominion Space with the help from the Romulans, that was sort of their last gasp as a quadrant power...sort of a gambled attempt to rekindle their empire by expanding into new territory and resources. However, they got their asses kicked soundly and swiftly. After that, and after the Klingon-Cardassian War, they were a broken power, beaten and crushed sort of like post WWI Weimar Republic Germany, and were annexed by the Dominion, under Dukat.

 

[TheRoyalFamily]

Don't Cardassian space stations fit into the equation? It seems that controlling and defending conquered territory was a preoccupation of the Cardassian military, leading to the construction of impressive space stations, one of which would be known as DS9. It may have been foolish in the long run to commit themselves to such structures, but it was always suggested that the station gave the power and possessed it a strategic advantage in its system.

DS9 really isn't that impressive, as far as stations go. It's basically a glorified government office building, or trade center. It's not really that big even, compared to Federation stations. It probably packs a punch above its weight class, considering the typical Cardassian paranoia and militarism, and then Starfleet realizing its strategic importance - and vulnerability!

When the Cardassians tried to invade Dominion Space with the help from the Romulans, that was sort of their last gasp as a quadrant power...sort of a gambled attempt to rekindle their empire by expanding into new territory and resources. However, they got their asses kicked soundly and swiftly.

That wasn't The Cardassians and the Romulans, it was the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar. Big difference. Also, it wasn't an invasion, it was merely a strategic attack to decapitate the Dominion. There was no intention to expand, at least not from that action. It might have brought some much-needed internal prestige, though...and given the OO a lot more clout in things.

 

[Nerroth]

One of the interesting facets of The Buried Age is the point it makes of how different the prevailing mood among the colonists along the Cardassian border was to those in other parts of the Federation. Those in more peaceful regions in that era were more fully bought in to the general sense of optimism that time period was noted for; but the bitter experiences of those faced with a more persistent cross-border threat was notable locally, even it it ended up being lost in the shuffle when viewing the broader Federation populace as a whole.

(I vaguely recall that also being an issue in Starfleet at the time, too. Only those deployed to more tense or hostile borders, such as with the Cardassians, were minded to see more of the military side of things, as opposed to the more patrol/exploration-minded counterparts in peaceful regions or on deep-range expeditions.)


But in a military sense, it would seem that the degree of comfort along other border regions may be a factor in determining just how much force the Federation can deploy to the Cardassian theatre.

Are the borders with the Klingons and Romulans peaceful because the former signed the Khitomer Accords and the latter has remained silent; or is at least part of the peace held due to the presence of whatever numbered fleets Starfleet has permanently deployed to those frontiers?

Or, for that matter, can the Federation afford to transfer ships away from whichever corner of the UFP is closest to, say, Breen space in order to fortify a trouble spot?

If any of the numbered fleets were classed as reserves, able to be sent to one trouble spot or another, those would be more readily sent to deal with a Cardassian threat. But if the bulk of Starfleet's deployments were in more localised areas (with a relatively light mobile reserve), it would be more trouble to take ships off even a quiescent border and send them to a more hostile one.


Or to put a long story short, it may be that the Federation was not in a position to concentrate enough force to deal with the Cardassian problem in this era, without compromising its obligations and responsibilities in other sectors of space.

Which, of course, may well feed the sense of disillusionment among the colonists on the Cardassian border, since they know all too well that Starfleet cannot (or will not) guarantee their security.

 

[TheSubCommander]

That wasn't The Cardassians and the Romulans, it was the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar. Big difference. Also, it wasn't an invasion, it was merely a strategic attack to decapitate the Dominion. There was no intention to expand, at least not from that action. It might have brought some much-needed internal prestige, though...and given the OO a lot more clout in things.

Eh, gonna have to agree to disagree a bit. It's true that the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order were not the regular military forces of the Romulans and Cardassians and were intent on wiping out the Changeling leadership, but had the expedition been successful, that would have been justification for each power to start colonizing the Gamma Quadrant. That is what empires do after all.

But regardless if you agree or not, that event was yet another blow to them as a power, as it set in motion a series of events that lead up to the Klingon-Cardassian war, which finished them as a power player. That was the main motivation for Dukat making the pact with the Dominion: as he put it, the alliance was intended to "make Cardassia strong again." That definitely shows that the Cardassians had at one time been a power to reckon with, but after having fought a bloody war with the UFP to a stalemate, a failed expedition against the Founders, and finally the Klingons, they became a second rate power.

 

[jmampilly]

That wasn't The Cardassians and the Romulans, it was the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar. Big difference. Also, it wasn't an invasion, it was merely a strategic attack to decapitate the Dominion. There was no intention to expand, at least not from that action. It might have brought some much-needed internal prestige, though...and given the OO a lot more clout in things.

Eh, gonna have to agree to disagree a bit. It's true that the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order were not the regular military forces of the Romulans and Cardassians and were intent on wiping out the Changeling leadership, but had the expedition been successful, that would have been justification for each power to start colonizing the Gamma Quadrant. That is what empires do after all.

But regardless if you agree or not, that event was yet another blow to them as a power, as it set in motion a series of events that lead up to the Klingon-Cardassian war, which finished them as a power player. That was the main motivation for Dukat making the pact with the Dominion: as he put it, the alliance was intended to "make Cardassia strong again." That definitely shows that the Cardassians had at one time been a power to reckon with, but after having fought a bloody war with the UFP to a stalemate, a failed expedition against the Founders, and finally the Klingons, they became a second rate power.

In that episode, Gul Dukat also said "Cardassia was at risk of becoming a third rate power," which implies that Cardassia was a second rate power before the Klingon-Cardassian war.

 

[TheSubCommander]

In that episode, Gul Dukat also said "Cardassia was at risk of becoming a third rate power," which implies that Cardassia was a second rate power before the Klingon-Cardassian war

Good point.

We don't really know how powerful the Cardassians were in their prime, but by the time of TNG and DS9, they were definitely no match for the UFP...if the UFP committed to going all the way. The thing is, the UFP and Starfleet are not in the business of Empire building and desire to keep the peace. Even if they have the means to defeat another power, that isn't their way to do it, unless it is absolutely necessary. The Cardassians, on the other hand, will come after their foe full force.

So this tells me, at least, that the Border Wars were more or less Cardassia coming after the UFP with every thing they have, while the UFP probably was using what they thought was enough power to match the Cardassians, but didn't want to totally wipe them out, either. In essence, the Cardassian's goal was to defeat the UFP, while the UFP'a primary goal was to protect the people in the Border lands first, then find a way to negotiate a peace. But I have a feeling that if the UFP wanted to utterly destroy Cardassia, and went out full force, I think Cardassia would have been crushed by the Federation. Not necessarily bloodlessly or easily, but it would have been decisively.

 

[MacLeod]

Perhaps, and if their mindeset is to totally commit to a war against the UFP, they might think that the UFP would also totally commit. With the UFP perhaps only commiting enoughr resources so that they had a slight tactical advantage the CU might be lulled into a false sense of belieivng that they could win the war.

 

[Dream]

So powerful, they folded like a deck of cards after the Dominion decided to wipe them out.

 

[Timo]

So this tells me, at least, that the Border Wars were more or less Cardassia coming after the UFP with every thing they have, while the UFP probably was using what they thought was enough power to match the Cardassians, but didn't want to totally wipe them out, either.

It is also possible that neither side committed any real forces to the fight.

That is, the fight was always just a series of scuffles about who controls this so far unused space route or that uncharted asteroid swarm, or who gets the right of way in a space crossing - and Cardassians always used weapons rather than words so as not to appear weak, but never escalated the fight, and always backed down if it looked like the Federation would send more than one ship.

After all, Cardassians seem to be big on intelligence, that is, spying, and they should have known exactly how much the UFP can take before biting back. Nibbling at the edges would probably be fine - and indeed we hear the Cardassians sent "militia" to conduct a raid at Setlik III and then apologized afterwards,l probably indicative of a pattern.

The one thing suggesting that there was actually a full-blown military element to the struggle is the fact that the Cardassian Union abruptly terminates outside the homeworld and its close neighbor Bajor. Every planet around Bajor is independent, unaligned, neutral (even if all these words mean "hostile to the UFP"), not a Cardassian colony or protectorate. This would be quite unlikely if Cardassians were the only players around; OTOH, it would be a likely aftermath of a fight where the UFP got fed up with Cardassia, fought a half-hearted war in which it easily "liberated" Cardassian holdings but stopped short of attacking major strongholds, and left behind a power vacuum hostile to the busybody "liberators".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TheSubCommander]

It is also possible that neither side committed any real forces to the fight.

That is very possible too. More a skirmish or cold war than a hot one could have occurred. Truth is we don't know. I was offering a possible explanation. I was speculating that the Cardassians were once an expanding empire until they ran up against the UFP, a level of power they had not encountered before. After fighting a long, bloody, and costly war, this could account for Cardassia's power waning, after the Border Wars, and as mentioned before, the reason Cardassia had to withdraw from certain holdings, like Bajor, because they simply couldn't afford to do it any more. That is what tells me that they may have had a strong military, but no industrial or economic means to sustain it. Once the military was depleted, they became a second rate power because they couldn't supply that military to pre-war status.

 

[TheRoyalFamily]

That is, the fight was always just a series of scuffles about who controls this so far unused space route or that uncharted asteroid swarm, or who gets the right of way in a space crossing - and Cardassians always used weapons rather than words so as not to appear weak, but never escalated the fight, and always backed down if it looked like the Federation would send more than one ship.

After all, Cardassians seem to be big on intelligence, that is, spying, and they should have known exactly how much the UFP can take before biting back. Nibbling at the edges would probably be fine - and indeed we hear the Cardassians sent "militia" to conduct a raid at Setlik III and then apologized afterwards,l probably indicative of a pattern.

This fits the pattern we see in the show. The Cardassians, as an empire, seem to be pretty much a bully - a crafty, smart bully, but a bully nonetheless. When they see someone weaker, that they can push around without too much retaliation, they go at them with gusto. If they can't, they push buttons and frustrate, but once they go too far they apologize like it was all a big misunderstanding.

We see this at least from the beginning of DS9 - the three Galors in "Emissary" were perfectly willing (and did) attack DS9, despite the "good" relations with Bajor and the Federation, once they figured out the station wasn't armed enough to fight back effectively. But the second the Enterprise looked to be showing up, they turned tail and ran, then acted like nothing even happened at all. And Gul Dukat is the master of this behavior.

 

[jmampilly]

It is also possible that neither side committed any real forces to the fight.

That is very possible too. More a skirmish or cold war than a hot one could have occurred. Truth is we don't know. I was offering a possible explanation. I was speculating that the Cardassians were once an expanding empire until they ran up against the UFP, a level of power they had not encountered before. After fighting a long, bloody, and costly war, this could account for Cardassia's power waning, after the Border Wars, and as mentioned before, the reason Cardassia had to withdraw from certain holdings, like Bajor, because they simply couldn't afford to do it any more. That is what tells me that they may have had a strong military, but no industrial or economic means to sustain it. Once the military was depleted, they became a second rate power because they couldn't supply that military to pre-war status.

Didn't the Cardassians also have a border with the Klingons? If that's the case, than they probably would have been mellowed out before fighting the Federation.

 

[vulcan redshirt]

I don't think they shared a border with the Klingons - wasn't it mentioned that the Klingon invasion fleet was (illegally) crossing Federation space whilst cloaked?

 

[Timo]

And it must have been quite a long crossing, since the Klingons wouldn't have lightly decided to rest and replenish at DS9, exposing their intent...

We never actually learned of any political entity other than the UFP sharing a border with Cardassia, not even the Breen (although we did hear of the two squabbling about the ownership of certain areas of space, just like we heard the Cardassians and the Klingons fighting over or at Betreka). There wasn't even a mention of a Cardassian-Bajoran border, even though apparently Bajor and Cardassia were neighboring star systems.

Cardassia did have borders, of course, but those may have been against neutral space; perhaps no neighbor was powerful enough to be able to claim enough "international space" to reach out to the Cardassian claims.

As for the Union/Federation border, it apparently (mostly?) ran inside a Demilitarized Zone, which would have precluded armed border guard and rendered the border rather irrelevant. The area also eventually came to feature rogue colonies teetering on the verge of declaring formal independence while already practicing it, really. Plus the Klingons conquered some local pockets of space for a while, no doubt creating some borders.

All this might indicate that Cardassia could afford to be less powerful than empires like Klingons or Romulans who have to maintain constant vigilance over hotly contested shared borders...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

I got the impression that the DMZ was created after CU and UFP signed a peace treaty to end the border wars.