How many planets and races dose the federation has??

[Timo]

Well, it seemed that basically all the colonies had ambitions to be free of centralized rule. But none really acted upon it, or rebelled when Kirk came to whip them back to submission. Yet there isn't explicit indication that the colonies of "Up the Long Ladder" would have chosen to join the UFP - although technically they never left it, either, having been founded before there even was a UFP.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

The planets in Up a Long Ladder, obviously the people who landed there are Humans, and they came from Earth, but did either of the two groups consider themselves colonists? Or were they instead settlers?

They might have severed all connections with Earth by leaving it behind. So they were neither a part of United Earth, or the Federation.

Their graditude for being rescued from their impending doom would not have to extend to having to join the Federation.

"Thanks for helping us Captain Picard, here, the misses made you a pie."

.

 

[C.E. Evans]

the possibility can't be dismissed.

That's the point of fundamental disagreement here: the possibility can easily be dismissed.

No, it can't no matter what you say. Because it sits well within the realm of possibility, it's an idea that's not going away unless something definitive comes along that says otherwise. Just because you may not like the idea doesn't mean that it isn't plausible. And plausibility is really all there it is to this.

The Bible, the Code of Hammurabi and of Justinian, Magna Carta, the Constitution of the United States ...

So does the Declaration of Independence. Y'know, the stuff about "certain unalienable rights..."

But the FDMC wasn't grouped with the Declaration of Independence.

Doesn't mean that it wasn't about rights.

 

[Timo]

...did either of the two groups consider themselves colonists? Or were they instead settlers?

The Bringloidi use the former word to deliver the big surprise at the start of the adventure:

Odell: "Well, in all your travels, have you heard anything from the other colony?"

The leader of the Mariposans uses the word "colonists" later on, too, when referring to the Original Five.

The terminology really is intriguing: according to Kim, Mars was "colonized" long after the establishing of first "colonies" ("Terra Nova" says that Utopia Planitia was established before Terra Nova was, thus half a century before Kim's date - and while UP is never directly called a "colony", it's grouped with "asteroid colonies" in that sentence, along with New Berlin). Mars is also the only place credited with multiple "colonies".

Hmm. Perhaps this is because Mars had a series of colonies, all failures, until finally in 2103 a colony was established that was not subsequently lost and therefore ushered in the actual "colonized" status. The Declarations might stem from the accumulated grievances of all those lost colonies, rather than from a joint grumbling by concurrently existing settlements of which each was called a "colony".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Doesn't mean that it wasn't about rights.

Just from the way Cogley referred to it, the FDMC could have been solely about Human rights.

...did either of the two groups consider themselves colonists? Or were they instead settlers?

The Bringloidi use the former word ...

The leader of the Mariposans uses the word "colonists" ...

I know that the terms colonist and settler might not have clearly separate meaning, but what I meant was were the people in their own minds "colonists" who were forming a colony knowing that it would ultimately be partly or fully subject to the control of their former home world. They were basically extending Earth itself into another star system politically.

As opposed to a group of "settlers," who traveled to a distant star system with the intent of setting up a colony which was to be autonomous (in terms of control) from the folks in power back in the old country.

If you look at the Pilgrims who voyaged to America, some pushed to have their colony (because they arrived in the wrong place) be independent of England, but the majority of the men decide that the new colony would have allegiance to King James (Mayflower Compact).

Perhaps this is because Mars had a series of colonies, all failures, until finally in 2103 a colony was established that was not subsequently lost and therefore ushered in the actual "colonized" status.

Colonized has a few different meanings, one of which denotes political attachment.

There could have been a official legal agreement separating the various colonies from each other, some would remain independent entities, others would be business/corporate holdings or science outposts, while others still would continue to be politically connected to sovereign nations on Earth (or possibly sovereign nations located on the moon or other locations). In the case of the independent entities, they might become sovereign nations in their own right, and be affiliated with United Earth in the same way the sovereign nations on Earth are affiliated with United Earth.

While never independent in of itself, Mars could one day have dozens or hundreds of sovereign nations on it's surface, while continuing to possess colonies too.

.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Doesn't mean that it wasn't about rights.

Just from the way Cogley referred to it, the FDMC could have been solely about Human rights.

Or not. It could have included other things too, but still be considered a notable historical document about rights and freedoms.

 

[T'Girl]

Or not. It could have included other things too, but still be considered a notable historical document about rights and freedoms.

Except Cogley specifically tied it to Human rights in a court of law, and the one time we heard of it the FDMC was connected to no "other things."

Sure, it could have been the declaration of war that started the Human/Romulan conflict, but there's no indication that it was. We do know it is documant concerning Human rights.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Or not. It could have included other things too, but still be considered a notable historical document about rights and freedoms.

Except Cogley specifically tied it to Human rights in a court of law, and the one time we heard of it the FDMC was connected to no "other things."

Doesn't mean that it wasn't. Some of the other documents he mentioned could also have been connected to "other things" too. Not everything is about just one thing.

 

[Sci]

This debate is getting old.

Some fans interpret the reference to the Fundamental Declarations of the Martian Colonies as an indication that Mars became independent of Earth, while recognizing that other interpretations are also valid. Some fans don't think the FDMC is an indication that Mars could have become independent of Earth, and are refusing to acknowledge the idea that someone else's interpretation can be different but also valid.

So one side acknowledges the other's validity, and the other doesn't. Meanwhile, the debate is just going in circles.

 

[T'Girl]

I can respect C. E. Evens position while not agreeing with it, we do seem to have gotten into a he said/she said exchange.

Perhaps we should return to the general OP tread?

.

 

[BK613]

Of course, Cochrane apparently misunderstands Kirk:

Everything will be an eye-opener to you. There's a thousand planets out there, a thousand races, and I'll show everything to you, soon as I learn my way around again. Maybe I can make up a little for everything you've done for me.

Or does he?

 

[Timo]

Obviously, the notorious gambler was convinced that any human-settled planet would have a race worth attending...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Of course, Cochrane apparently misunderstands Kirk:

There's a thousand planets out there, a thousand races

Or does he?

Kirk told Cochrane "We're on a thousand planets and spreading out ... we estimate there are millions of planets with intelligent life." So Cochrane's "thousand races" could have came from that.

 

[BK613]

Of course, Cochrane apparently misunderstands Kirk:

There's a thousand planets out there, a thousand races

Or does he?

Kirk told Cochrane "We're on a thousand planets and spreading out ... we estimate there are millions of planets with intelligent life." So Cochrane's "thousand races" could have came from that.

I did acknowledge that he could have misunderstood; truth is, I never caught that line of dialog before...