How many planets and races dose the federation has??

[T'Girl]

Colonies

But the title of the Declaration of Independence doesn't include the word colony or colonies. Nor does the name of the country, United States of America.

It's also possible that among the worlds counted are multiple worlds within a single star system (Earth and Mars may be counted as two member worlds in the Sol System ...)

If Picard's 150 figure meant only species homeworlds, and not all members, then the 150 would include Earth but not Mars.

The rate of the Federation's expansion may not always be constant. There could be periods where it was high and periods where it may even have been stagnant.

The Federation's membership count might not have been a steady uninterrupted upwards climb, there could have been periods of decline in membership after individual or blocks of members left. The 150 figure might not have been a case of the number rising to that number, but having fallen to that number after being much higher previously.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Colonies

But the title of the Declaration of Independence doesn't include the word colony or colonies. Nor does the name of the country, United States of America.

The point was that it still referred to itself as colonies in the actual Declaration even as it was stating its separation from Britain.

It's also possible that among the worlds counted are multiple worlds within a single star system (Earth and Mars may be counted as two member worlds in the Sol System ...)

If Picard's 150 figure meant only species homeworlds, and not all members, then the 150 would include Earth but not Mars.

Not necessarily, because there are people who referred to Mars as their homeworld, not Earth in both TOS and TNG. And if Mars was indeed independent of Earth as it seems, then its relationship would Earth would be akin to the one between the U.S. and Britain.

The rate of the Federation's expansion may not always be constant. There could be periods where it was high and periods where it may even have been stagnant.

The Federation's membership count might not have been a steady uninterrupted upwards climb, there could have been periods of decline in membership after individual or blocks of members left. The 150 figure might not have been a case of the number rising to that number, but having fallen to that number after being much higher previously.

Or not.

 

[T'Girl]

because there are people who referred to Mars as their homeworld

And while lovely, doesn't make Mars in any way a species homeworld.

The point was that it still referred to itself as colonies in the actual Declaration even as it was stating its separation from Britain.

And my point (and I believe Timo's) is that the term "Colonies" does appear in their official name for themselves. America moved away from the label of colonies, Mars apparently never did.

 

[eyeresist]

130 member worlds feels a bit too much for mid-23rd century. It would mean the Federation went from 5 to 130 worlds in it's first century of existence and then added only some, say, 30 worlds in it's second century. Not impossible, of course, but I feel like the pace of Federation's expansion should be broadly accelerating, not decelerating, over time (thanks to warp speed advances and the Federation's growing power, prosperity and influence).

An issue I think is answered by this:

... the Federation was founded by United Earth, the Confederacy of Vulcan, the Andorian Empire, the United Planets of Tellar, and the Alpha Centauri Concordium.

Earth entered interstellar space relatively late, and encountered a number of pre-existing multi-system organisations. When these combined this would have given the Federation a high starting number of members. Regions that had not already been part of these pre-existing groups had probably been considered not worth colonising or conquering. Those unallied systems who now found themselves surrounded by Federation members would have joined as a matter of course. So the Federation would have quickly arrived at a fairly large planet number (technically, at least), but been surrounded by regions of little immediate interest, making subsequent expansion look relatively slow.

 

[Timo]

Also, who knows: perhaps members assimilate each other? Mars might have rejoined the "mankind" block, worlds populated by Andorians or Andorian-related although not Andor-originated species might have chosen to merge into one block, and so forth. Nobody leaves the Federation (and lives to tell the story), that much is clear from the Maquis storyline - but the number of members might still take a plunge every now and then.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Librarian]

Also, who knows: perhaps members assimilate each other? Mars might have rejoined the "mankind" block, worlds populated by Andorians or Andorian-related although not Andor-originated species might have chosen to merge into one block, and so forth. Nobody leaves the Federation (and lives to tell the story), that much is clear from the Maquis storyline - but the number of members might still take a plunge every now and then.

Timo Saloniemi

I don't think that's clear at all. The Maquis were not being forced to stay in the Federation, they were being forced to acknowledge the new borders and to stop shooting at people.

 

[MacLeod]

Also, who knows: perhaps members assimilate each other? Mars might have rejoined the "mankind" block, worlds populated by Andorians or Andorian-related although not Andor-originated species might have chosen to merge into one block, and so forth. Nobody leaves the Federation (and lives to tell the story), that much is clear from the Maquis storyline - but the number of members might still take a plunge every now and then.

Timo Saloniemi

I don't think that's clear at all. The Maquis were not being forced to stay in the Federation, they were being forced to acknowledge the new borders and to stop shooting at people.

If we look at history aren't there numerous occasions where land has been purchased or traded for something?

 

[Timo]

I'm not arguing the Maquis would have been forced to say. I'm arguing that Eddington's ranting makes it clear nobody has left the Federation before, and the Maquis would be breaking new ground if declaring independence. Which, oddly enough, they never got around to doing.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

because there are people who referred to Mars as their homeworld

And while lovely, doesn't make Mars in any way a species homeworld.

Who said anything about a species homeworld? All it has to be is a homeworld (or member world) period. There probably are non-Humans who were born on Earth and Humans born on numerous other Federation worlds. Regardless of their ancestral origins, where they were born would be their home.

The point was that it still referred to itself as colonies in the actual Declaration even as it was stating its separation from Britain.

And my point (and I believe Timo's) is that the term "Colonies" does appear in their official name for themselves. America moved away from the label of colonies, Mars apparently never did.

Which really becomes more of a "so?" If the Martian Colonies are separate from Earth as they seem, then they can call themselves whatever they want. If Mars isn't divided up the same way Earth is, then the various settlements there might as well keep their colony designations and be known collectively as the Martian Colonies.

 

[Timo]

Yet why would the Martian colonies be "separate from Earth" if they don't even cease to refer to themselves as colonies in their important fundamental declarations and whatnot? The separateness is not canonical, even if it is explored to some degree in the novels.

Heck, we have characters who are "of Alpha Centauri" or "of Izar" but nobody "of Mars"... Which is probably for the best.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Who said anything about a species homeworld?

I did, back in post seven.

.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Who said anything about a species homeworld?

I did, back in post seven.

.

I never did in any of my posts.

 

[Timo]

We don't even know yet if membership in the UFP follows species lines at all. Might be that not only are some species divided across several members, but certain members consist of multiple species. For all we know, some members are actually more like political parties, having been formed out of like-minded UFP citizens rather than out of any specific species or planetary culture or whatnot.

...It might help if we knew what membership actually entails. Does the Federal government juggle resources for member worlds, or dish out rights and obligations for member cultures, or what?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

Yet why would the Martian colonies be "separate from Earth" if they don't even cease to refer to themselves as colonies in their important fundamental declarations and whatnot?

A colony is simply a settlement. It can have a political affiliation to another land or not at all. In the latter case, the term "colony" simply becomes a name.

The separateness is not canonical, even if it is explored to some degree in the novels.

Who said anything about the novels? The Fundamental Declarations of the Martian Colonies were first mentioned in TOS and could easily be seen as being analogous to the Declaration of Independence.

Heck, we have characters who are "of Alpha Centauri" or "of Izar" but nobody "of Mars"...

TOS' Mira Romaine was from Mars. TNG's Simon Tarses was from Mars as well.

 

[Timo]

Who said anything about the novels?

Well, I did, because those are the only Trek sources to suggest Martian independence.

The Fundamental Declarations of the Martian Colonies were first mentioned in TOS and could easily be seen as being analogous to the Declaration of Independence.

They were also last mentioned in TOS, and could easily be seen as having nothing to do with independence. The theme there is human rights, not self-determination; the previous document quoted is not the US Declaration of Independence but the US Constitution. Cogley even emphasizes that all these documents define the rights of the accused (although he might be exaggerating a bit there).

TOS' Mira Romaine was from Mars. TNG's Simon Tarses was from Mars as well.

But not "of Mars", which IMHO is an important nuance. Although whether it indicates the standalone importance of the location or the standalone importance of the person is not clear.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

Who said anything about the novels?

Well, I did, because those are the only Trek sources to suggest Martian independence.

TOS suggested it as well (and probably was where the novels you said got the idea from).

The Fundamental Declarations of the Martian Colonies were first mentioned in TOS and could easily be seen as being analogous to the Declaration of Independence.

They were also last mentioned in TOS, and could easily be seen as having nothing to do with independence.

And could easily be seen as having everything to do with independence.

TOS' Mira Romaine was from Mars. TNG's Simon Tarses was from Mars as well.

But not "of Mars", which IMHO is an important nuance.

Not really, because very few people add the name of their homeworld to the end of their names, and when it is done so, it is used as more of a formal title.

 

[Timo]

And could easily be seen as having everything to do with independence.

It's a document defining (no doubt among other things) the rights of the accused. Sovereign states can publish such things. But non-sovereign entities can also publish, especially when they just "declare" rather than formally legislate. The pamphlet is no proof that Mars ever was independent of the United Earth political entity, or the UFP, or whatever the prevailing political force of the (unknown) day and age.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

By the time Mars decides to go its own way, the name "Martian Colonies" is well ingrained that they decide to keep the name. Or the other names offered were not agreed on and the name defaulted to Martian Colonies.

It may also have changed its name after the making of that document. There are instances of the Martian Free State listed in the old FASA based books. There are also the United Martian Colonies as one alternative to the Confederated Martian Colonies.

The question of Mar's being a seperate state from United Earth was suppose to come up in Enterprise, but the show was cancelled before it could come up.

 

[C.E. Evans]

And could easily be seen as having everything to do with independence.

It's a document defining (no doubt among other things) the rights of the accused. Sovereign states can publish such things.

And new nations seeking their own sovereignty as well.

By the time Mars decides to go its own way, the name "Martian Colonies" is well ingrained that they decide to keep the name. Or the other names offered were not agreed on and the name defaulted to Martian Colonies.

It may also have changed its name after the making of that document. There are instances of the Martian Free State listed in the old FASA based books. There are also the United Martian Colonies as one alternative to the Confederated Martian Colonies.

The question of Mar's being a seperate state from United Earth was suppose to come up in Enterprise, but the show was cancelled before it could come up.

Yup.

 

[T'Girl]

There are instances of the Martian Free State listed in the old FASA based books.

But instead of that being the name of a independent Mars, it could be a political entity on the Martian surface that doesn't encompass the entire planet.

There are also the United Martian Colonies as one alternative to the Confederated Martian Colonies.

These all could be separate nations on Mars that are consider to be part of Earth's collection of nation states. While not physically on Earth, they are part of United Earth.

They were also last mentioned in TOS, and could easily be seen as having nothing to do with independence.

This is a consideration, nowhere in canon is it mentioned that Mars is independent of Earth (politically or otherwise), or a separate Federation member.

It's a document defining (no doubt among other things) the rights of the accused. Sovereign states can publish such things. But non-sovereign entities can also publish ..

The "Fundamental Declarations of the Martian Colonies" could be the title of political agreement, a document like The Camp David accords. The agreement perhaps came out of a multi-national conference held on Mars, and has nothing to do (exclusively) with Mars itself.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights came out of the UN, and the UN wasn't declaring independence from anything.