I used to be the kind of guy depressed over a lack of dating prospects. So now that I'm no longer interested, of course there are suddenly plenty of girls around hitting on me. Which really goes to show how low their standards have gotten, I suppose. Still, at times like that I think back to when I was the one trying desperately to get the attention of members of the opposite sex... and I feel absolutely no sympathy whatsoever as I turn them down. I mean, I do it nicely, way more politely than most of the girls were to me. It is kind of a nice feeling though, especially since I'm a guy and I'm supposed to want to sleep with any woman who is willing for some reason. *shrugs*
How many people have you "been with" ?
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Buying hookers is not going to lead to a relationship. It will probably put off any future woman you might have happily formed a relationship with.
teacake said:
What, so the condition of prostitutes can be a legitimate problem, but the factors that make it profitable can't be?
Seriously, do you think most prostitutes are bought by the incel?
If someone can't get sex because they are socially stunted in some way society does not need to shift to accommodate them. THEY need to shift for the good of all their relationships.
J Allen
I think comparing loveshyness to agoraphobia is accurate. The longer it goes on the harder it is to get out. As miserable as it can be, it is familiar, the unknown can be scary.
Teacake
The issues I listed are not really the causes of loveshyness, but they exacerbate an already existing problem. And there are many more. The real cause as I said, is the mindset that prevents relationships from happening. But this mindset has its source in the context the person grows up in. While I think my genetic or natural inclinations played a role, I believe it was my primarily the effects of my religious upbringing that pushed me into loveshyness. The exact reasons will differ with each person. And from there it seems that loveshyness maintains itself. It becomes part of your identity, part of how you define yourself, miserable but familiar.
I think comparing loveshyness to agoraphobia is accurate. The longer it goes on the harder it is to get out. As miserable as it can be, it is familiar, the unknown can be scary.
Teacake
The issues I listed are not really the causes of loveshyness, but they exacerbate an already existing problem. And there are many more. The real cause as I said, is the mindset that prevents relationships from happening. But this mindset has its source in the context the person grows up in. While I think my genetic or natural inclinations played a role, I believe it was my primarily the effects of my religious upbringing that pushed me into loveshyness. The exact reasons will differ with each person. And from there it seems that loveshyness maintains itself. It becomes part of your identity, part of how you define yourself, miserable but familiar.
Not to pick upon, but only for illustration purposes, especially valuable because you're a guy dealing with the unwanted attention of women, and I didn't want this to seem like a women-suck-and-need-to-change-their-vagina-guarding-ways routine:
But, this is kind of the opposite of what I mean by charity, and libertinism in the face of sex, romance, and human frailty.*
However, it's well that you're nice; it's vital to remember that even the nicest "no" is still a potential stab in the heart.
*Your rationality I can't impugn, as clearly you're looking out for your self-interests, and that particular one of the three jewels relates to other stuff, such as transparency and realistic expectations.
Yeah. And I've been there. That's why I don't really care. Which is odd, and somewhat annoying, because in all other areas of my life I genuinely hate disappointing other people or making anyone unnecessarily unhappy as a result of my actions. But I lived with the same hurt for years and nobody cared. So I guess I subconsciously feel I can not care as a result. Weird.
A
Amaris
Guest
What? I'm not sure we're on the same page. Incels seek to experience sexuality through human contact, but due to mental barriers can't seem to break through and achieve that desire. I wasn't talking about anyone faking anything.
It's the best one I could come up with. Being incel or loveshy is almost like being in prison.
All that is very familiar to me.
What are the answers.. I do not know. People I've know with this inability to change that affects relationships often have some aspergers element, the people I told the story about both had agoraphobia and OCD issues. I thought at first it was a perfect match because they were both very understanding of each other's problems but that was not the case. Religion also played a part in it, to detriment.
Neither will unemployment insurance lead to a job. Are we talking past each other, here?
What a sordid idea. The sexual history, short of health-related concerns or simple curiosity, is or should be a monumentally little interest to a current partner.
teacake said:
Seriously, do you think most prostitutes are bought by the incel?What, so the condition of prostitutes can be a legitimate problem, but the factors that make it profitable can't be?
I think most prostitutes are "bought" (not a fan of the terminology--you don't buy a doctor when you go to an emergency room, right?
) by people who have not the time nor patience or emotional fortitude for inefficiently negotiating a sexual encounter in a traditional manner.I do not know if self-identifying incels make up a statistically significant proportion of the prostitute-engaging public.
Society needs to shift regardless of the plight of incels. They are merely the most obvious victims, but everyone suffers to some to degree or another under the current sexual regime.
Society's just a bunch of people, after all; nobody's perfect.
5 but not due to a lack of chances...
1st was at 16 by a young lady who simply wanted to have sex to see what it would be like, she picked the one gent she could trust (Your's truly) to keep it a secret...( I did) then I couldn't get any women to pay attention until I was 18.. (that was my 1st wife)...Then after my divorce 3, including my Dear Wife...
I'm actually proud to say that I can count it on one hand...
Here's the deal...when I got married the first time, there were plenty of opportunities by persistant ladies (one who actually kissed me sticking her tounge in my mouth) to have sex..but I refused, maybe because I'm that damned trustworthy guy the first girl knew about...
No hurry Goji...
When it's right for you..it'll be RIGHT for you...
1st was at 16 by a young lady who simply wanted to have sex to see what it would be like, she picked the one gent she could trust (Your's truly) to keep it a secret...( I did) then I couldn't get any women to pay attention until I was 18.. (that was my 1st wife)...Then after my divorce 3, including my Dear Wife...
I'm actually proud to say that I can count it on one hand...
Here's the deal...when I got married the first time, there were plenty of opportunities by persistant ladies (one who actually kissed me sticking her tounge in my mouth) to have sex..but I refused, maybe because I'm that damned trustworthy guy the first girl knew about...
No hurry Goji...
When it's right for you..it'll be RIGHT for you...
What planet are you from? People want to know, just like they want to know what jobs you had, if you like dogs are cars and how you take your pizza. "should be monumentally little interest", why? It seems very important to you, getting proper access to sexual partners, why would it be important to a girlfriend/boyfriend to know what your sexual life included?
I've been trying to follow the conversation here, but I think I must have missed a post where you explain how this is the fault of society? How do you think society must change?
Not an unnatural human response, of course.
Personal revenge is okay, it's just that a belief in collective responsibility is a dangerous path.
Myasishchev please outline what your ideal society is as far as sex goes. I think you are being coy about it to some extent.
Eh, it's not about revenge or responsibility so much as it is being conditioned to feel such behavior is not wrong, and even expected, I think. But hey, revenge works too.
My girlfriend now was someone who always thought of herself as unattractive, unwanted and socially awkward as well, and I derive much pleasure from knowing that two people rejected by society have found happiness with one another. And I'd be lying if I said there wasn't at least a small component of "fuck society" in there somewhere.
My girlfriend now was someone who always thought of herself as unattractive, unwanted and socially awkward as well, and I derive much pleasure from knowing that two people rejected by society have found happiness with one another. And I'd be lying if I said there wasn't at least a small component of "fuck society" in there somewhere.
I get that a lot.
Waiter, lawyer, no, in a facile way, can't go wrong with olives and peppers.
That's why I excepted curiosity. Sure, it's natural and good to be curious, so as to come to know the other person, but also it would be highly incourteous to judge someone based on past sexual exploits. The only negative inference I think might be proper to draw from someone who enjoyed the company of a prostitute, or even frequented them, would be if the jurisdiction he or she acted in had made the practice illegal, OR if he or she acted with unconcern as to origin of the prostitutes. I mean, yeah, if you're in connivance with a sex slaver, you're kind of a dick.
But in the absence of considerations such as those (and health), I don't see it as anything but a neutral and potentially interesting piece of a partner's past.
Kestra said:
Well, basically it boils down to this. When someone complains about how the economy has impacted their personal life, they are generally regarded with sympathetic ear, regardless of the personal political leanings of the listener. When someone complains about how the sexual market has impacted their personal life, there is generally far less sympathy and a notion that the wrongness is entirely inherent, and not even partly external.
Imagine that, instead of a 25 year old who's never had sex, despite dutifully trying to find a partnership, I described a 25 year old who's never held a job, despite dutifully filling out weekly job applications.
Is it right to be more apt to suspect something wrong with the society Case Two lives in, than the society of Case One?
In either event, and regardless of whose fault it is, I don't think the right question to ask is "Is this even a problem?" but rather "What can be done?"
That's a good starting point for how society should change.
And, yeah, it's not global warming or anything conventionally apocalyptic, but I expect for sufferers it might as well be.
As for concrete changes? Little tags that identify sexually available folks would be neat. (Preemption: they're called lower back tattoos. Ha ha.) "Would you like to have sex?" no longer being a verboten, or at least highly risky, question to an acquaintance.
Well, really, the only one I highly advocate is the second one. I think that would go a long way toward improving transparency, and would be the next best thing to telepathy.
teacake said:
Summed up in one sentence: Complete sexual freedom moderated by complete sexual altruism.
Gobi said:
Well, I do like the cut of your jib.
Even if you live in a society where it's the norm to put out a horga'hn next to you at the bus stop if you give off dork/weirdo vibes and/or are ugly you are still going to get rejected. For a lot of people this is not going to be Super Sex Funland regardless.
Okay, thanks for the explanation. I'm still having some trouble following, but I'll try.
You talk about the sexual market vs the economic market. I'm unsure about how the sexual market works in this case, but there are objective ways to measure and describe an economic market. It's difficult to examine what someone is doing "wrong" sexually when there isn't really a unifying standard.
I was going to talk about locus of control and some other stuff, but I'm really sleep deprived so I'll come back to this topic with more substance later if it's still going.
You talk about the sexual market vs the economic market. I'm unsure about how the sexual market works in this case, but there are objective ways to measure and describe an economic market. It's difficult to examine what someone is doing "wrong" sexually when there isn't really a unifying standard.
I was going to talk about locus of control and some other stuff, but I'm really sleep deprived so I'll come back to this topic with more substance later if it's still going.
teacake said:
It's still more transparent than going through elaborate motions, then getting rejected. In that manner, it's more efficient.
In any event, this is where altruism comes in. Sometimes you've gotta take one for the team called humanity.
Haven't you heard of adult date sites? You've got what you want right there.
Right. A kind of fuck the charity case program. That ought to make all the incels feel a lot better about themselves.
That doesn't make sense. No human owes another human sexual contact. And the functioning of society isn't dependent on every member participating in sexual acts.
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