How many people before it becomes wrong?, Star Trek Insurrection

[JonVP]

The Federation tried to relocate the Baku peacefully, without brute force. It wasn’t until Data and the Enterprise intervened that things got a bit dirty. That being said: I believe the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, ONLY if all parties can profit from progress and security and when the sanctity of life and respect for every individual is guaranteed.

When I look at the whole Baku incident, this is clearly not the case. Starfleet was definitely in the wrong here. Relocating these people (even 600 and even if they look a bit too aryan) would be probably mean sentencing them to death because they’d lose the rejuvenating effect from the planet’s rings.

 

[Tenacity]

because they’d lose the rejuvenating effect from the planet’s rings

They would no longer have exclusive access, but what leads you to believe the Baku would not have the same access as other people in the Federation?

but had they refused to move whilst fully understanding the consequences, the moral questions would also have encompassed their behaviour.

Picard laid the whole thing out for the Baku after he took the Captain's yacht down.

Let 1 000 000 people establish a settlement on the other side of the planet away from the Baku.

Doesn't it make more sense for medicine to be sent to you, not you to have to move to the factory where the medicine is made?

 

[Paradise City]

The Feds tried to kidnap people through deception. And while the Baku is in Federation space you can't just kick people around who aren't federation citizens like that.

 

[Tenacity]

The Feds tried to kidnap people through deception.

While I do think moving the Baku and collecting the particles was a great idea, the whole thing with the holoship is confusing.

Openly approach the Baku and tell them that what the Federation is going to do, how the particle will help billions, the planet's surface will be rendered uninhabitable, and the Baku are leaving.

 

[Paradise City]

The Feds should establish a science outpost in orbit, resource it to the hilt. Foster inter-community relations with the Baku down below (the Feds were initially clueless that they were that advanced) and bring their expertise onboard as to how to understand and duplicate the substance' properties. It really shouldn't confound a long term study and it's proper order as the Feds don't really understand the "quick fix" youth-rays they are attempting to grab anyway.

Summarily presenting "our way or die" ultimatums to innocent people ain't the Starfleet way of doing things. Or at least it shouldn't be.

 

[Commishsleer]

Do I really need to explain it, PW? Seriously? Think about what the Nazis did, which included dehumanizing people, stealing land, property, possessions, and livelihoods, and rounding people up and relocating them forcibly, in the name of the German people. I'm talking about the ends justifying the means, which I find distasteful, and really, makes my previous response all the more accurate. Even though we are talking about a fictional people and plot here, I find it is really shocking that there are actually people here who think it is OK to steal from other people, because it might benefit themselves\their own people. That is about as far away from the message Gene Roddenberry wanted to promote, as you can get. So, yeah, good little Nazis is quite accurate. I wasn't directing my statement at any single individual, but the sentiment that it is OK to steal from a people, or deprive them of their land or property and forcibly relocate them. If someone thinks I am referring to them specifically, maybe that's a guilty conscience talking. If someone is offended by that, maybe they need to look in the mirror and ask if that was done to them, would they still support it. Anyone being honest, wouldn't. And anyone who still would support it, ought to be ashamed of themselves, whether they are talking about something real, or hypothetical.

Forgive me for thinking you were referring to me as your comment was straight after mine.
I didn't propose force relocating or whatever you think Nazis represent. I did propose sharing resources - no exterminations or killing of civilians so if you must name-call - call me a communist.

I was also thinking what about the Son'a's rights. Surely they have as equal a right to the planets resources as the Baku. If they want to use the planets resources to save themselves should the Federation stop them or help them.

 

[Jedman67]

I think the novelization demonstrated that the Son'a were actualy Ba'ku who'd left the planet or something, and it was all about misguided revenge for the Baaku having what the Sonaa didn't or something.
I think that actually makes the story worse.

 

[Jedman67]

I was also thinking what about the Son'a's rights. Surely they have as equal a right to the planets resources as the Baku. If they want to use the planets resources to save themselves should the Federation stop them or help them.

What "rights" do they have to something that is not theirs? Since the Baaku have colonized the planet, it means that the resources belong to them, no?

 

[BillJ]

The only number that concerns me, is the number of people that paid to see Insurrection. For me, by far Trek's worst hour.

 

[Emperor Norton]

The only number that concerns me, is the number of people that paid to see Insurrection. For me, by far Trek's worst hour.

I did not know Insurrection existed until around the time Nemesis came out.

 

[jaime]

It is relevant how the few came to be in possession of horde of treasure.

Did they personally create it it? Did they toil through decades of effort to bring it into existence? Was it a product of their intellect or sudden inspiration?

Or was it alway there and they merely the first beneficiaries, after moving underneath it in complete ignorance?The Baku fled their home world, in the interest of diversity people from all races were among the refugees.

Oh wait, the Baku are all white, with blond hair and blue eyes.

I guess Nazi's are part of this discussion.
A Starfleet Captain was using the the Baku people, including their children, as Human shields. No, not the Federation finest hour.The crime would have been not removing the Baku, knowing what would happen to the surface.

Even after Ruafo activated the collector, there would have been time to remove the remaining Baku on the surface. The effect would not have been instantaneous.

The Enterprise was going to be back in orbit in only a few minutes.

Ruafo: "In six hours, every living thing in this system will be dead or dying."

I am staying out of most of this argument, but I will say as I have said elsewhere....Picard did not use the Baku as human shields, he actually put himself and his crew in to act as human shields for the Baku. It's an odd misunderstanding of the film the crops up now and then...it's already established the Son'Na and the Admirals team have no problem doing whatever to the Baku...but maybe the federation personnel and Admiral will think twice about firing on their own people. (I believe Riker even has dialogue pointing this out.)
Picards little band are literally acting as escorts to defend the Baku from forced relocation.

 

[BillJ]

Picard and the Enterprise crew are traitors. If Picard no longer believes in the Federation government, he should resign his commission and run for office.

 

[jaime]

They would no longer have exclusive access, but what leads you to believe the Baku would not have the same access as other people in the Federation?Picard laid the whole thing out for the Baku after he took the Captain's yacht down.Doesn't it make more sense for medicine to be sent to you, not you to have to move to the factory where the medicine is made?

The plan as it stood at the beginning of the film assumed the Baku were what they appeared to be...an undeveloped group. They would not have had the same access as federation citizens, and could not have been intended to have such...had they actually been what they appear, they would have started having mysteriously shorter lifespans, illnesses, and may have died out altogether.
After Picard explains what is happening....then they should have found another way. The Baku should have okayed a federation hospital on the planet basically. There's nothing to suggest this couldn't happen after the end of the movie...but all of that ignores the motivation of the Son'Na which was to wipe out the Baku. The only real error in reasoning is that it took that information to the make the Admiral realise his error. (It's a prime directive violation from day one, staying away from the moral argument being discussed.)

In terms of the medicine being delivered...well, once collected there is a finite supply, assuming it works, whereas going to the planet provides a near infinite supply of the medical benefits. And this sis the federation...sure the briar patch is a bit rough, but they can ferry in people no problem. It's a big hole, and one Piller seemed determined to ignore.

 

[jaime]

Picard and the Enterprise crew are traitors. If Picard no longer believes in the Federation government, he should resign his commission and run for office.

Actually he stuck by the federation and Starfleet regulations...but went rogue because on the ground the authority was acting illegally (he needed to go over Admiral Dougherties head, but also needed to act against his superior officer in the short term to prevent it being too late to do so.) and essentially did resign his commission (as Worf did during the Klingon civil war) though why is a good question. As is asking why the other members of his party did so also...they essentially became nonuniformed combatants (mercenaries even) in a civil war, supplied by a third party super power. Just so they could get out of uniform and into the fresh air.

 

[BillJ]

Actually he stuck by the federation and Starfleet regulations...

He really didn't. Once it was found out that the Ba'ku and S'ona were the same people essentially fighting a civil war, he should've recused the Federation from the whole mess and left the area.

But, he was violating orders from the start of the movie, including not going to the Goren system, Daugherty's order to stay out of the Briar Patch, and his original order to leave. The Enterprise isn't Picard's personal pleasure craft. Plus, Daugherty said he was working under orders of the Federation Council, which means he was following the orders given him.

A starship captains job is not to undermine orders from the Federation government. There would be a lot of people here that would be howling if Kirk pulled the same exact stunt.

 

[jaime]

He really didn't. Once it was found out that the Ba'ku and S'ona were the same people essentially fighting a civil war, he should've recused the Federation from the whole mess and left the area.

But, he was violating orders from the start of the movie, including not going to the Goren system, Daugherty's order to stay out of the Briar Patch, and his original order to leave. The Enterprise isn't Picard's personal pleasure craft. Plus, Daugherty said he was working under orders of the Federation Council, which means he was following the orders given him.

A starship captains job is not to undermine orders from the Federation government. There would be a lot of people here that would be howling if Kirk pulled the same exact stunt.

Hmm.
He had also been asked to essentially provide the means of sentencing Data to summary execution though hadn't he? Or was he basically asked to come stop 'his' android. Dougherty from that moment is on shakes ground, given Measure of a Man etc. It's also implied his council backing was gained through misrepresenting the situation.

 

[BillJ]

He had also been asked to essentially provide the means of sentencing Data to summary execution though hadn't he?

Okay? Even if that was the case, Picard was clearly ordered by someone higher up the chain of command to not come to the Briar Patch. On top of that, he already had orders to go to the Goren system.

There isn't a career field where one gets to simply do what they want when they want. Against directives from higher ups to the contrary.

It's also implied his council backing was gained through misrepresenting the situation.

No. There is no indication that the situation was misrepresented. Why would Daugherty bring along a wild-card (an unknown element) in Data on a mission that didn't have approval of the Federation and Starfleet?

The entire movie is a clusterfuck that doesn't make a lick of sense. Why hide a holoship in a lake when you know there are going to be people on the ground working with tricorders and other scanning equipment? How did the agrarian Ba'ku chase off the technologically superior S'ona? What was the need to chase them away from the entire star system so they could keep a small valley for 600 people? Why didn't Picard recuse the Federation from what was clearly a non-interference situation, once he found out they were in the middle of a civil war?

 

[UssGlenn]

The entire justification of The Alliance with the Son'a is in error. The Admiral states that The Son'a have the tech and the Federation has the planet. That isn't true. The Baku planet lies within the current borders of the Federation but was settled by the Baku in 2066 before the Federation was ever founded. Therefore the Baku's claim of sovereignty on the planet is rock solid, regardless of the fact that they are not native.

 

[DonIago]

I can sum up my problems with the Ba'ku succinctly by paraphrasing a line from Buffy the Vampire Slayer: they weren't better than anyone else, they were just luckier than anyone else.

They didn't originate on that planet, they stumbled upon it, and from everything we see they felt perfectly entitled to take advantage of their good fortune while denying the benefits to others.

A lot of INS's moral issues could be solved by having the Ba'ku themselves propose a reasonable compromise which the Son'a would either reject or subvert because for them it was all a revenge scheme (not as portrayed in the film, where I don't think that's necessarily the case).

I have a serious problem with the idea that any group of people is willing to deny medical benefits to a much larger number of people simply because it would detract from a privileged way of life that they were lucky enough to bumble across.

Can you imagine if a cure for cancer was found and then the discoverers refused to share it because it would mean that they'd have to live basically the same way everyone else does? People wouldn't stand for it.

 

[BillJ]

The entire justification of The Alliance with the Son'a is in error. The Admiral states that The Son'a have the tech and the Federation has the planet. That isn't true. The Baku planet lies within the current borders of the Federation but was settled by the Baku in 2066 before the Federation was ever founded. Therefore the Baku's claim of sovereignty on the planet is rock solid, regardless of the fact that they are not native.

That depends on whether or not the planet fell within the space of another political entity at the time the Ba'ku settled it and whether or not that territory was ceded to the Federation via treaty.

The planet was discovered by the Ba'ku and I have no issue with the idea that it "belongs" to them. But, life sucks. Something stays yours only as long as you are able to protect it. Eventually, the Ba'ku secret will become common knowledge and someone not interested in protecting them will make an attempt at taking the resource from the planet. This time they were able to manipulate Picard into protecting them. Next time, if it is the Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, Cardassians or someone else... they'll likely never know that they are in danger, and will just be obliterated from orbit.