How long before TNG were the Wrath Of Khan uniforms phased out?

[Lance]

I'm sure there's somebody on this board who can enlighten me about this.

We see a couple of TNG characters wearing TWOK (or variant) uniforms in the past. Picard, Jack Crusher. We also see the crew of the Enterprise C wearing them in Yesterday's Enterprise, which was, what, only 22 years before the events of TNG's third season? (so only 19 years before Farpoint)

One assumes then that the TNG uniforms are relatively recent when we first see them in the TNG pilot. In Beverly's flashback sequence in Violations we see Picard wearing the season 1 TNG uniform on the day Jean-Luc brings Jack Crusher's body back to her, as do the crew of the Stargazer in The Battle. Admittedly both of these are visions brought on by outside forces, but if we take them at face value we might surmise that the new TNG uniforms were phased in during Picard's tour of duty on the Stargazer, as we do see Jack Crusher wearing the TWOK style (and we know he served on the Stargazer).

Does any source actually pin down the uniform change to a specific time? How long before TNG do we think it changed?

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^There's also the duplicate of Riker to consider. He was wearing a TNG-style operations uniform when he was found by the Enterprise crew in 2369.

--Sran

 

[Lance]

Jack Crusher's recorded holomessage to Wesley sees him wearing the TWOK uniform. Presumably this was recorded around the time Wes was born, or about to be born. Picard's crew aboard the Stargazer wear the TNG uniforms. I assume the change must have happened somewhere between Wes's birth and the Stargazer's destruction. How old was Wesley at the start of TNG?

 

[Timo]

TNG "Family" is our best source so far. Jack Crusher's holomessage with the TWOK uniform is dated at Wesley's birth, hence 2348. His uniform came to feature TNG-style collar pips before his 2354 death, though, as Wesley inherits those.

It doesn't get much narrower than that. Adding to the above, Janeway's father wears a uniform that clearly belongs to the TNG family rather than the TWOK one, in a hallucination of dubious accuracy, but that's only in 2358.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Jack Crusher's recorded holomessage to Wesley sees him wearing the TWOK uniform. Presumably this was recorded around the time Wes was born, or about to be born. Picard's crew aboard the Stargazer wear the TNG uniforms. I assume the change must have happened somewhere between Wes's birth and the Stargazer's destruction. How old was Wesley at the start of TNG?

Wesley was born in 2348, so he would have been about sixteen at the start of the series.

--Sran

 

[Lance]

TNG "Family" is our best source so far. Jack Crusher's holomessage with the TWOK uniform is dated at Wesley's birth, hence 2348. His uniform came to feature TNG-style collar pips before his 2354 death, though, as Wesley inherits those.

Cheers Timo. It seems reasonable to assume that Jack's pips came from after the uniform switch, which in itself must have happened after the holomessage was actually recorded.

I think that nails it down to my satisfaction. The uniform change must have come sometime in that six year period. And given that TNG begins in 2364, that gives us around 10-15 years that the TNG uniforms have been in effect before "Farpoint", give or take.

 

[Hando]

Well, by going canon we have the earlier mentioned time limit of 2348 ("Family") - 2353 ("Suddenly Human").

If we go by non-canon, then we have the actual year 2351, when the new uniform is introduced . As in 2350 the TWOK uniform is still used ("Double Helix: The First Virtue").

 

[I am not Spock]

Wow, those TWOK uniforms are pretty long-serving, then! They hung onto them for a good 70, 80 years! They phased out the early TNG jumpsuits (for main characters) after two seasons!

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

We had the whole TNG-DS9 mix throughout the series' & movies (and the subsequent arguments about their purposes), so it's not out of the question both movie & early TNG uniforms might have co-existed for a little while.

The lack of the undershirt with those burgundy uniforms (in TNG) always bothered me. What, they couldn't dig up a few colored turtlenecks?

 

[Dukhat]

Wow, those TWOK uniforms are pretty long-serving, then! They hung onto them for a good 70, 80 years! They phased out the early TNG jumpsuits (for main characters) after two seasons!

Which is patently ridiculous. In a much lesser span of time, TNG went from the spandex of S1&2, to the "regular" duty uniform for the rest of the series, to the DS9 uniforms for Generations, to the FC uniforms, to the AGT uniforms (granted that last one was from an alternate future, but they popped up at least three times in Trek's future history, so they've got something going for them).

I always felt that "Yesterday's Enterprise" should have shown the Ent-C crew in some kind of "intermediate" uniform (and phaser as well, since the type they used was even older than the uniforms!) I know they blew the budget on the Ent-C model, but it's not like the wardrobe dept. couldn't have come up with something, even if they were re-used uniforms from some alien-of-the-week.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Wow, those TWOK uniforms are pretty long-serving, then! They hung onto them for a good 70, 80 years! They phased out the early TNG jumpsuits (for main characters) after two seasons!

Which is patently ridiculous. In a much lesser span of time, TNG went from the spandex of S1&2, to the "regular" duty uniform for the rest of the series, to the DS9 uniforms for Generations, to the FC uniforms...

It could be looked at (in hindsight) that Starfleet underwent a series of interim uniforms from 2366 to 2373 until finally settling on the First Contact uniforms.

...to the AGT uniforms (granted that last one was from an alternate future, but they popped up at least three times in Trek's future history, so they've got something going for them).

I wouldn't count those except as uniforms from a potential future (or alternate timeline). For all we know, the First Contact uniforms may actually be around for several decades or a totally different uniform design may be in service by then.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I wouldn't count those except as uniforms from a potential future (or alternate timeline). For all we know, the First Contact uniforms may actually be around for several decades or a totally different uniform design may be in service by then.

I agree. Every potential future we see has those uniforms in it, but that's probably only a plot-device to avoid confusing the audience. There's been no mention of the uniforms in any of the novels, so it's safe to assume that the FC uniforms are still in use and will be for some time.

--Sran

 

[Dukhat]

It could be looked at (in hindsight) that Starfleet underwent a series of interim uniforms from 2366 to 2373 until finally settling on the First Contact uniforms.

So are you implying that the FC uniform will be around for the next 70 years like the TWOK uniform was? Because I'd bet good money that if they made another TNG movie right now that took place after Nemesis, the cast wouldn't be wearing those uniforms.

I wouldn't count those except as uniforms from a potential future (or alternate timeline). For all we know, the First Contact uniforms may actually be around for several decades or a totally different uniform design may be in service by then.

I only added them for completeness's sake, and that we saw them at least three times. I personally hate those uniforms, and if they never actually existed in the "real" prime future, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep

 

[Talos]

Wow, those TWOK uniforms are pretty long-serving, then! They hung onto them for a good 70, 80 years! They phased out the early TNG jumpsuits (for main characters) after two seasons!

Actually, a little bit longer. Remember, the early TNG uniforms were in use at least as early as 2364 (when Picard brings back Jack Crusher's corpse. So at least 11 years. Longer then the later TNG/DS9 ones.

 

[I am not Spock]

I think Starfleet is kind of destined to head towards those AGT uniforms, as we've seen them in nearly all possible futures in TNG/DS9/VOY era Trek.

Not just the uniforms, but the equipment seems to be following the pattern laid down in AGT. Captain La Forge in 'Timeless' (VOY) was wearing a FC style uniform, but an AGT combadge. Of course, the Negh'var class warships seen in the possible future timeline in AGT, later showed up in the 'present' DS9 timeline.

The future phasers, seen in 'Endgame', later cropped up as the standard issue Starfleet phasers in the present timeline, in Star Trek:Nemesis.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

I want to see the faces of Picard and others, the day they show up for duty and have a memo from Starfleet quartermaster in their Mailbox.

"Oh, finally new uniforms, I started to feel like my grandpa in those old threads. Computer, replicate new uniform pattern 2354 Alpha! They took 80years to come up with a new design, I bet they are awesome!"

Replicator materializes new spandex uniform.

"WTF?!"

 

[Start Wreck]

It's possible that the WoK type uniforms were phased out and then brought back again a few decades later due to popular demand or whatever. We've just never seen any of the ones inbetween.

It's also possible that the WoK style uniforms were only kept in use for certain ships or situations, with different uniforms (or variations) used for starbases, outposts, long missions, etc. (as per DS9's jumpsuit style), which we also never saw.

On the other hand, maybe everybody really did just stick with the same uniform for 70 years. *Shrug.*

I want to see the faces of Picard and others, the day they show up for duty and have a memo from Starfleet quartermaster in their Mailbox.

"Oh, finally new uniforms, I started to feel like my grandpa in those old threads. Computer, replicate new uniform pattern 2354 Alpha! They took 80years to come up with a new design, I bet they are awesome!"

Replicator materializes new spandex uniform.

"WTF?!"

 

[I am not Spock]

Maybe the early TNG 2360s jumpsuits were that time's equivalent of the DS9/VOY jumpsuits with the coloured shoulderpads. A less formal uniform variant, as opposed to the formality of the TWOK uniforms. They may have served alongside the TWOK uniforms for a while. And eventually the Wrath of Khan ones were phased out.

In Generations, we saw a bit of a mix and match of uniforms. The TNG season 3-7 ones, and the DS9/VOY jumpsuits. Some characters switched from the TNG style ones to the DS9 ones mid movie, notably Data, Picard, and Riker.

It's possible that a similar mix and match was going on aboard the Stargazer. With TWOK uniforms appearing alongside the S1-2 spandex jumpsuits.

 

[C.E. Evans]

It could be looked at (in hindsight) that Starfleet underwent a series of interim uniforms from 2366 to 2373 until finally settling on the First Contact uniforms.

So are you implying that the FC uniform will be around for the next 70 years like the TWOK uniform was?

Nope. Only that they could be around for more than just a few years (which is what I said in the rest of my post).

Because I'd bet good money that if they made another TNG movie right now that took place after Nemesis, the cast wouldn't be wearing those uniforms.

I'll take that bet. I definitely think they would continue to use those First Contact uniforms, although we'd probably start to see more variants of them by now.

I wouldn't count those except as uniforms from a potential future (or alternate timeline). For all we know, the First Contact uniforms may actually be around for several decades or a totally different uniform design may be in service by then.

I only added them for completeness's sake, and that we saw them at least three times. I personally hate those uniforms, and if they never actually existed in the "real" prime future, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep

I think those uniforms are as likely to really occurring as the three-nacelle Enterprise-D.

I wouldn't count those except as uniforms from a potential future (or alternate timeline). For all we know, the First Contact uniforms may actually be around for several decades or a totally different uniform design may be in service by then.

I agree. Every potential future we see has those uniforms in it, but that's probably only a plot-device to avoid confusing the audience. There's been no mention of the uniforms in any of the novels, so it's safe to assume that the FC uniforms are still in use and will be for some time.

Yep. Glimpses into Trek's distant future aren't set in stone, IMO. It's always subject to being changed (more by creative decisions from producers and writers than anything in-universe, but even that has to taken into consideration).

 

[Dukhat]

I'll take that bet. I definitely think they would continue to use those First Contact uniforms, although we'd probably start to see more variants of them by now.

Then you'd probably lose your money. Nemesis was 11 years ago. All the costumes have long since been sold off. If there were a new TNG movie, brand-new uniforms would have to be made for it, and there's no reason whatsoever why they would replicate a uniform from over a decade before, or even a variant of them. It's much more likely that they'd make uniforms based on Star Trek Online than anything else.