How long before TNG were the Wrath Of Khan uniforms phased out?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Lance, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    No. Like I said, those costumes would have still been in use and wouldn't have been auctioned off. Same thing for anything else that was still being used at the time.
     
  2. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ Like the actors.

    Sometimes, I like to imagine the majority of the TNG actors were just like wardrobe in the movie years. There was probably an entire department at the studio where they just got hung up on hooks and kept until they were needed again for the next sequel.

    They brought Marina Sirtis out and dusted her off for those Voyager episodes though. ;)
     
  3. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sorry, but you're wrong. Uniforms and costumes degrade over time. Paramount would have been more interested in selling them off ASAP to get even more money to produce new ones for a future film seven years down the line.
     
  4. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    Nope.
    There's no reason to remotely believe that at all.
     
  5. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Wouldn't they prefer to sell off ill-fitting costumes rather than retain them for a cast that was consistently aging against their better judgment? Certainly Frakes of 2009 wouldn't fit in his uniform costume from 2002!
     
  6. Squiggy

    Squiggy FrozenToad Admiral

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    Over 50 years, a little. In a couple of years on a hanger? No.

    They wouldn't make enough to make a difference.
     
  7. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    But why keep a garment that's not going to do anything for seven years except collect dust, and at the end of which time will not fit the actor anyway?
     
  8. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    That's a problem inherent with every Star Trek uniform costume. The actors just cope with it rather than design all new uniform costumes for them.
     
  9. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    They wouldn't need to design new costumes, just sew new versions that fit the aging actors. Certainly Jimmy Doohan didn't get forced into an ill-fitting costume from the 1960s, or even the early 1980s when he needed one, did he?
     
  10. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    What was being discussed earlier was designing all-new costumes for everybody.
     
  11. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Maybe "degraded" wasn't quite the word I was looking for. "Faded," maybe. Either way, some uniform sitting on a hanger in a rack for seven years would be the last piece of clothing they'd want to show on a big screen.

    I beg to differ. Did you see the ridiculous prices all that shit went for? The returns from selling some uniforms, phasers and tricorders would have given the wardrobe department more than enough of a budget to knit some new uniforms.
     
  12. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    Except that money would not go into a budget for new uniforms, so they'd just keep the current ones.
     
  13. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Money is money. It all goes back into someone's budget at Paramount.
     
  14. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    Because money goes into a studio's general coffers, not into a special savings account for a particular movie. They determine a particular movie's budget based on how much they think the movie will cost to make and how much of a return they want to make. As a result, the less they have to spend on a movie, the better it is for them.

    EDIT: I see you went back and changed your response, but my points still stand.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
  15. Skipperino

    Skipperino Cadet Newbie

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    Sorry to bump such an old thread; but I've always had a bit of a pet theory as regards the TWOK uniforms after the movies: I think that the elimination of the belt in the 2340's meant that the informal but common practice before that of leaving the flap undone was no longer possible (otherwise the jacket would just be open)-which makes me think "hey, maybe Starfleet Command got so sick of how informal it looked when open that they ordered the removal of the belt (weirdly enough something rather similar happened with Royal Navy uniforms in the 1820s and 1830s)-the removal of the turtleneck/crewneck meant that by the time of the Enterprise-C/Jack Crusher's holomessage you have the same neckline you had with the early TNG unitard-and perhaps the fact that the colour red was used for the jacket had something to do with the adoption of red as the new command colour.

    I don't think it's a coincidence that the dress uniforms in the TNG era are rather similar to the TWOK era jackets granted they start out as rather long, but perhaps this was aping civilian fashions of the time (in the real world, military uniforms often reflect civilian styles, so its not that far-fetched)-indeed, the TNG dress uniform in its last appearance in DS9's 'You Are Cordially Invited', with its belt and other features; the resemblance to the TWOK uniforms is very obvious. This also reflects the tendency both in the military and the civilian world for outmoded outfits that were once everyday wear to become formal wear later on-today's white tie (aka top hat and tails) is what men wore on a daily basis in the 1810s and 1820s before it became fossilised as evening wear; whereas morning dress-what is often worn by men at weddings-is what men wore during the 1860s normally.

    Lastly, there is the enlisted TWOK jumpsuit, which would have been worn by the majority of the crew during those time period-there isn't a huge jump from this to the TNG s1-2 unitards, not to mention the fact that in the real world, the enlisted jumpsuit was simply created by dyeing and altering some of the uniforms from TMP. (as were the TWOK security uniforms) -we can kind of see the TNG uniforms as a blending of the officers and enlisted uniforms.

    Thoughts, folks? I appreciate any input.
     
  16. Mutai Sho-Rin

    Mutai Sho-Rin Crusty Old Bastard Moderator

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    Bumping threads this old is usually bad form but the content of your query makes this one worth keeeping open.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2017
  17. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's a great point. The uniforms have a better defined path of evolution than it looks at first glance. It makes even more sense when you realize that there were actually at least 4 versions of the Maroon Monsters and assume (and I'll give you full credit for this) a separate evolution of dress and duty uniforms.

    TOS -> TMP -> Enlisted WOK-> ??? (got rid of duty uniforms and went dress all the time?) -> TNG Spandex -> TNG Collars -> DS9 Jumpers ->FC Duty Uniform
    ??? -> Officer WOK w/ collars -> WOK with T-shirt (Tapestry) -> WOK w/o Undershirt (Ent-C) -> TNG Dress -> INS Dress

    You could even toss the aborted Generations Duty uniforms in with the second track, or as an attempt to unify the two again.
     
  18. Skipperino

    Skipperino Cadet Newbie

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    Re. the dress uniforms introduced during Insurrection; I would regard them as a wholly separate development from the TWOK officers jacket to TNG dress uniforms. I have also wondered at times whether those uniforms were intended as 'mess dress' uniforms. That is; the military equivalent of evening dress; and were separate from the TNG dress uniforms. Clearly that is what the design is based on (the outline of the white bits is obviously very similar to the outline of a military mess jacket).

    As regards enlisted crew in the TWOK era; I don't know if they would have had as many options as officers: to give a real-world; present-day parallel, in the Royal Navy today, junior rates (everyone below petty officer) have only three uniform variants or 'orders' to choose from: 'number 1's' (sailor suit-worn for formal occasions); 'number 3s' (short sleeved shirt worn with smart trousers, no tie and an optional jersey-for semi-formal occasions) and '4's' (utility, everyday wear for everyday tasks)-whereas senior rates and commissioned officers have the added options of mess dress and more variety as regards their semi-formal dress. And Admirals have even more variety; adding a 'ceremonial day coat' that is essentially the same as the uniform worn in the days of Hornblower, (had he been real of course, but you know what I mean)-only a peaked cap is worn instead of a cocked hat. And that's without the white tropical versions of these uniforms. And this disparity between ranks is true for most armies and navies throughout the world. The main reason being those at the top have more money to spend on more varieties of special uniform (not to mention the social connections one would need for wearing mess dress for example)

    So we can see that in the real world; this disparity is also the case. However; in the cashless society of the 23rd and 24th centuries, it's difficult to give an in-universe reason as to why that would be the case with Starfleet.
     
  19. Skipperino

    Skipperino Cadet Newbie

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    The aborted Generations uniforms were indeed very TWOK-ish, I agree. Shame they weren't used in any form for the film in my humble opinion, even if just s dress uniforms.
     
  20. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Maybe. We've only seen them used like...three times, once in INS, again in NEM and once more on DS9. However, they were used in situations which, previously, the characters used dress uniforms (e.g. O'Brien vs Riker-Troi's wedding).

    The fact they the INS dress unis were a dramatic departure from the previous outfit isn't unprecedented. The TOS dress uniforms were quite different from whatever followed. Though, now that I look at them, the elaborate TOS-D collar could have evolved into the WOK collar and the zipper in the middle moved left into the WOK flap.
    http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x11hd/themenageriepart1hd601.jpg

    Odd that they didn't include rank stripes on the sleeves of the TOS dress unis. That makes zero sense. Might have to chalk that one up to 60's corner cutting rather than intent.

    We can only speculate as to whether or not enlisted crew had any kind of dress uniform. Given that Kirk & co stood in front of the Fed president and full(?) council in their "normal" uniforms in TVH suggest that there was no dress uniforms for officers beyond what they wore on duty.

    Related WOK question: at what times did they ditch the turtle necks for the Tapestry t-shirt and what time frame could they have dropped the t-shirt for none at all.

    TUC, GEN and VOY:Flasback took place in 2293 (busy year) and all used the full WOK outfit.
    Tapestry's "past" events took place in 2327 and had ditched the turtleneck.
    1701-C was lost in 2344 and had no visible undershirt.

    Am I missing an episode?

    I think that was deliberate to better draw a connection between the prologue on the 1701-B and the rest of the movie. Apparently, the TPAB yanked them at the last second (which is why the GEN Playmates action figures have the aborted uniform, too late to change production) and that they were intended to be the uniforms for Voyager (to keep them distinct from DS9).
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2017