Known around the Fleet as "Finneys"
How long before "The Man Trap" did McCoy know Kirk?
- Thread starter Admiral Archer
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This dialog from Finney, if believed to be his honest observation of Kirk and not only the ranting of a madman, doesn't think Kirk to be anymore special than himself. Finney must have been a good officer since he is promoted to Lt. Cmd, but then again, he is shelved away in personnel...
Kirk's skills are better than most good officers, though. He beats Spock in 3D Chess. He beats the best of the Romulans. He masters Kirk-Fu and beats Finney in a close fight. He beats a Gorn with chemistry. He outwits several AI's. I don't see Finney doing any of that, so, I conclude that Finney is ranting, and Kirk is truly great.
However, when pitted against a peer, he loses, twice: Tracey's Starfleet-Fu is stronger than Kirk's...
Possibly everybody worth the triple braid can beat Romulans and Gorn and AIs wth his or her left thumb, but the pecking order is only established when two end up in the same sandbox and really get to mix their metaphors.
Timo Saloniemi
Possibly everybody worth the triple braid can beat Romulans and Gorn and AIs wth his or her left thumb, but the pecking order is only established when two end up in the same sandbox and really get to mix their metaphors.
Timo Saloniemi
When Kirk finished his 5 year mission he was still in his 30s and became an Admiral. I mean TMP is set 2 years after end of 5-year mission so Kirk is early 40s at best so take that Decker and Wesley.
Up your game. Well Wesley as least.
But Kirk won the last fight with Tracey and that's the one that counts.
He also won the verbal fight with Decker
Walter Koenig is also Jewish.
Well, 2.5 years is just the minimum time elapsed after TOS. The actors are a decade older than in TOS, and it shows, so this isn't exactly evidence of Kirk besting the Commodore characters he previously met.
But Kirk being Chief of SF Ops does show that Starfleet has faith in Kirk. It's just that this faith probably comes from TOS, and might not be all that evident in TOS itself yet.
Timo Saloniemi
We don't really know what Chief of Star Fleet Operations is. It could well have been a title made up when they decided to get Kirk out of the field to make it look like he was really important. It could have been a very important position, and moving him into was a sign that he was going to be running the whole show.
I'd love to know how that title relates to Morrow's title in TSFS.
Yup. Out-universe, the makers of TMP lifted Kirk's title from FJ's manual where it pretty much stood for the Boss of Bosses (and as such was ill fitting a junior flag officer). In-universe, we never see FJ:s organization chart on screen, at least not in focus, and COps might be relatively low on the totem pole after all.
In-universe, Morrow wore more brass than Kirk ever did. Then again, basically every flag officer in the movies did, save for a couple of extras at the ST4:TVH Council. It would appear to be difficult to top Commander, Starfleet semantically without going wholly Calvin&Hobbes on the titles, but "The CinC" in TUC carries just as much brass...
Timo Saloniemi
In-universe, Morrow wore more brass than Kirk ever did. Then again, basically every flag officer in the movies did, save for a couple of extras at the ST4:TVH Council. It would appear to be difficult to top Commander, Starfleet semantically without going wholly Calvin&Hobbes on the titles, but "The CinC" in TUC carries just as much brass...
Timo Saloniemi
I wonder if Kirk's role at the academy was to teach cadets how to trick femputers into self destruction?
Just the one. The Enterprise computer had him flummoxed.
Well I suppose he had her executed.
Agreed.
Could be a mid-to-high-level HQ staff position. Operations could be almost anything, but usually in military staffs means basically keeping track of which units are doing what and where. The WW2 COMINCH Assistant Chief of Staff (Operations) was a rear admiral. After the war that function transferred to Deputy CNO (Operations) Op-03 (now N3/N5). DCNOs were three-star posts until 1990s defense cuts when they were downgraded to two-star.
The WW2 British Royal Navy had two Directors of Operations at the Admiralty, "Home" and "Foreign," both captains.
Going by the FJ Technical Manual organization charts, Chief of Starfleet Operations was just one level down from the top officer (Chief of Staff, Starfleet Command). That seems like it would be a three-star billet at least, but we don't know if that was really the exact organization in place.
In "Whom Gods Destroy":
If Kirk is known as the second greatest military commander in the Galaxy, and is primarily an explorer now, what rank t did he have when he gaiend fame as a great military commander How low could Krk have been ranked when he became known as great military commander?
So Kirk was taught about Garth's victory at Axanar as a cadet at the Academy. And Kirk's first visit to Axanar was in a peace mission as "a new fledged cadet". I presume that Kirk probably went on the Axanar peace mission as a cadet cruise during the summer break between his first and second years at the Academy. It is possible that this Peace mission failed, and that Garth later won his great victory at Axanar, and it was studied at the Academy before Kirk graduated and was commissioned, but the chronology would be tight. and it seems certain that Kirk only studied Garth's victory at Axanar and didn't participate in it.
This sounds like Garth won his victory at Axanar first, and then Kirk went on the peace mission, and Garth is complaining about the foolish peace mission that succeeded in making peace.
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blink
I guess that it suffices for our purposes that Kirk got some military fame. The rest would be the madman talking - and the madman wouldn't talk like that after Kirk modestly admits to having been a great military man, unless he really meant it and agreed with Kirk. For all we know, Kirk showed exceptional leadership abilities relative to his age and position, perhaps indeed achieving as Cadet what lesser mortals would only achieve as seasoned Lieutenants.
Which again allows us to speculate on Burnham's War, where casualties were low (most of them coming from the initial engagement at the Binaries), and victories few or nonexistent (we never hear of anybody but Lorca winning any), so the UFP would reward even small-scale triumphs, quite possibly out of proportion to their true significance.
Kirk might have gotten a few medals, but not yet enough to make it to Saru's "most decorated" list in DSC "Choose Your Pain". But I guess the interesting thing about that list is that Garth is not on it. The list appears to be alphabetical, and runs from April to Pike (and then possibly onwards, but the camera points the other way), but also includes old-timers like Archer and Georgiou so isn't limited to the most recent decorations. So should we perhaps try to argue that Garth hadn't yet made it to the very top as of 2257?
Doesn't mean he wouldn't already have won at Axanar. But Starfleet hands out medals for things other than military victories, and Garth's gathering of a superior number of first contacts might have happened after 2257.
Very much so. But as said, the timeline is tight for most interpretations, and the lack of fame for Garth in the 2257 list allows us to favor those interpretations where the fame comes relatively late and tight.
Timo Saloniemi
Garth said Kirk was a Military Commander only 2nd to him but Garth was well you know insane.
And Kirk may have been humouring a madman.
How old was Garth anyway? He looked about the same ages as Kirk.
I think the gist of the episode was that Garth was a great Military Commander, Fleet Captain and probably approved of peace talks until he went insane.
Honestly is Kirk a great military commander? He hasn't really participated in a war.
I mean he's great in a scrap with the odd Klingon and Romulan ship but I thought a great military commander would be someone whos gone through the years of tactics of involved in a war.
Sure if you're taking on Romulans or Klingons one on one or one-on-three I would send the Enterprise out there and in Balance of Terror and Errand of Mercy starfleet sent the Enterprise out as its ace ship (or canon fodder).
In the Ultimate Computer Kirk though seemed not to be the favoured Starship 'captain' but maybe thats because the Enterprise was the best and the other ships couldn't wait to take her on in war games.
And Kirk may have been humouring a madman.
How old was Garth anyway? He looked about the same ages as Kirk.
I think the gist of the episode was that Garth was a great Military Commander, Fleet Captain and probably approved of peace talks until he went insane.
Honestly is Kirk a great military commander? He hasn't really participated in a war.
I mean he's great in a scrap with the odd Klingon and Romulan ship but I thought a great military commander would be someone whos gone through the years of tactics of involved in a war.
Sure if you're taking on Romulans or Klingons one on one or one-on-three I would send the Enterprise out there and in Balance of Terror and Errand of Mercy starfleet sent the Enterprise out as its ace ship (or canon fodder).
In the Ultimate Computer Kirk though seemed not to be the favoured Starship 'captain' but maybe thats because the Enterprise was the best and the other ships couldn't wait to take her on in war games.
...that we've seen.
I get the impression that Garth's affliction is recent:
If recent, then Garth may still be in Starfleet, or at least still connected, getting briefings and current bio's on Starfleet Captains. Garth's knowledge of Kirk may be up to date to include all his battles from the last two seasons.
...Of course, Elba II only gets the incurables. There's little telling how many decades of therapy were attempted on Garth in places like Tantalus V before he was deemed incapable of ever becoming a non-criminal again; just as Spock argues, the system that screens for Elba II candidates must be superbly efficient, so nobody would be sent there lightly.
Kirk recognizes Garth, but not for the deed that sent him to Elba II: instead, Kirk refers to Garth's exploits that preceded Kirk's cadet days. Being a captain in the starship fleet is an exclusive privilege, though, and we never met a starship captain Kirk wouldn't have known by name, nickname and telltale scar. Were Garth's fall recent, surely Kirk would be acutely aware of it (unless Spock was keeping him in the dark, like he did with Pike)? OTOH, a deed committed years ago might have been forgotten, by Kirk and Spock alike, and Kirk would first recall the man, and only much later the deed. (He does recall the deed eventually, without prompting, unless Governor Cory said more than the camera showed us.)
Timo Saloniemi
Kirk recognizes Garth, but not for the deed that sent him to Elba II: instead, Kirk refers to Garth's exploits that preceded Kirk's cadet days. Being a captain in the starship fleet is an exclusive privilege, though, and we never met a starship captain Kirk wouldn't have known by name, nickname and telltale scar. Were Garth's fall recent, surely Kirk would be acutely aware of it (unless Spock was keeping him in the dark, like he did with Pike)? OTOH, a deed committed years ago might have been forgotten, by Kirk and Spock alike, and Kirk would first recall the man, and only much later the deed. (He does recall the deed eventually, without prompting, unless Governor Cory said more than the camera showed us.)
Timo Saloniemi
Didn't they say in TMP it was 2 years since Kirk had been in the Center Chair?
I suppose he could have commanded another ship but I'm sure it would have been mentioned elsewhere.
Its TWOK where the characters have reverted to the actor's age. So then you could say Kirk had been an admiral for 15 years or so.
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