How long before "The Man Trap" did McCoy know Kirk?
- Thread starter Admiral Archer
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In my mind, I am keeping it simple. This little fudge allows Kirk to have a career with a more believable timeline. No need to resort to him being a wunderkind that entered the Academy early or already having a officer's commission while he is doing the coursework to become a commissioned officer.Kirk is an unreliable witness in TDY; I am just using that.KISS. Kirk is 34 during The Deadly Years.
Irregardless, I did say it was my headcanon. Not asking anyone to come along for the ride.
It's not hard to interpret the dialogue as Stocker pointing out that very error, albeit in a snarky way:
COMPUTER: Working. Subject's physical age based on physiological profile, between sixty and seventy two. Aging rapidly.
KIRK: No, I'm thirty four. I'm thirty four years old.
STOCKER: The computer differs with you, Captain.
IOW Stocker is saying the computer disagrees with Kirk on every level! KIRK: No, I'm thirty four. I'm thirty four years old.
STOCKER: The computer differs with you, Captain.
Miaow.
It's just a ruse because he always wanted a crack at the centre seat and knew that this was his only chance.
I never had any real issue with him being a wunderkind or an accelerated career.
There's wunderkind (rising rapidly through the ranks to Captain of a deep space starship at 30) and there's childish fanboy wish fulfilment (captain at 25 with no practical experience at administration, crew dynamics, or diplomacy).
I didn't know we were talking about the Abrams films? I'd say that Kirk got the promotion for saving Earth and the Federation, it represented good publicity for Starfleet. At the same time, Starfleet was obviously keeping a sharp eye on what he was doing while in the center seat. He may have been given a captain's rank and perks, but was clearly someone on probation as seen in Star Trek Into Darkness.
That kind of Starfleet is very different to TOS though. I mean Kirk didn't really save Earth, Spock(s) did. All Kirk did was implement a quite childish plan based on Intel from Spock, that would have failed miserably if the Narada had just kept her shields up until Earth orbit (which logically, she should have).
Despite its campness in places, I think TOS had a layer of realism in many respects. I feel that TOS Kirk was good but that he earned that command through hard graft and experience. Mid thirties feels right to me.
29-32 for me. That seems to be the common numbers at play in fandom for decades now.
I’d say the writers of the Abrams films were boxed in. They had to show the origins of Kirk while still getting him to the center seat at the end of the movie. Problematic, but still a wildly entertaining movie to me. Which is all I ask for.
I share the sentiment but it's hard to believe that Kirk was not on an accelerated track (to say the least) when he's a captain and his classmates in "Court Martial" are lieutenants.
The real world learned long ago to de-couple recognition for great achievements from promotion in rank. The rank represents a record of experience and competence to perform assignments at a particular level, which is not demonstrated by a single event or action, however heroic. That's the reason for the proliferation of decorations and medals in the 20th century. For publicity, awarding something like the Medal of Honor or Victoria Cross has historically gotten much more media coverage than officer promotions. Starfleet Command's action as described there wouldn't believable for a WW1 navy.
Yeah, you were supposed to be able to believe that these were real future space adults. Maybe a little heightened, sure, but not superhero comic characters.
Good thing it is a fictional entity three hundred years in the future.
Beyond that, Roddenberry envisioned these folks as Hornblower in Space, so a time before heroics were decoupled from rank.
Good thing it is a fictional entity three hundred years in the future.
Beyond that, Roddenberry envisioned these folks as Hornblower in Space, so a time before heroics were decoupled from rank.
And all the lessons learned and progress made in the intervening four centuries years ignored? Hornblower's navy employed corporal punishment on a regular basis, capital punishment for a wide range of offenses and a rigid system of racial and social class discrimination.
There was a Eugenics War, a World War, a war with the Romulans, and ongoing tussles with the Klingons. Sometimes things change, I have a hard time seeing something be static for multiple centuries. Starfleet will make decisions that will leave one scratching their heads. Like putting an Admiral who hasn’t been in space for two and a half years in command of a ship he knows little to nothing about.*
*TMP is one of my favorite movies ever.
So the Federation is supposed to be so much more advanced in every way from how we are today, but those events made Starfleet revert to a kind of personnel practice that was current around 1800? If that's believable for you, cool; it's not for me.
I like TMP too and that was also really dumb.
The ones that jumped to conclusions without having all the facts? I can't imagine why those clowns would be lagging behind on being promoted.
Seriously though, I just want Kirk's career to be more about effort and less about privilege or special circumstances. I prefer that it be a case of him always being selected for promotion* on the first go-around than be on some special track that only certain officers have access to. YMMV. I am definitely not a fan of Okuda's solution of him being an ensign on the Republic before he has even graduated.*(It's clear that SF time in service is different that the USN: Time in service to be promoted to O-6 is 22 years. [edited the part I misread])
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They were still trying to force Treaty Ports on folks outside their sphere of influence in the 23rd century (See: “A Taste of Armageddon”). They weren’t as advanced as everyone seems to think they were.
The ones that jumped to conclusions without having all the facts? I can't imagine why those clowns would be lagging behind on being promoted.
I very much agree.
Huh? Fox's mission was to establish diplomatic relations so the port could be negotiated.
Then you factor in all the times women were referred to as girls, Starfleet was not a bastion of enlightenment. So I could see someone getting a big promotion for saving Earth and the Federation.
Cadet to Captain wasn’t my chosen outcome. But all the things Star Trek gets away with, I don’t see any point in the rage it seems to cause for some folks. I chalk it up to extraordinary action taken due to extraordinary circumstance.
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It still doesn't say anything about forcing it on Eminiar. If they wanted to use force, they wouldn't need to open diplomatic relations. Fox actually goes out of his way to avoid using force, for a lot longer than Scotty preferred.
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