How long before "The Man Trap" did McCoy know Kirk?

[Hofner]

For a very long time now, I've seen how people say Kirk was a maverick who broke every rule and disobeyed just about every order he was given. But to me, going by TOS alone, he wasn't that way at all. This thing about him being a cowboy started with the movie Wrath Of Khan and has snowballed since and this scenario now comes to mind,.

Starfleet recruiter: Raise your right hand and repeat after me.
Kirk: no sir, I won't.
Starfleet recruiter: Alrighty then! You're now an official Starfleet cadet.

As far as I know in TOS itself, Kirk really only disobeyed orders once, in "amok Time". It is claimed that he violated the Prime Birective many times but starfleet apparently signed off on all his decisions.

people seem to think Starfleet put Kirk in command of the Enterprise so he could ignore Federation policy and his orders to carry out his own personal agenda. I happen to have the opinion that it's the reverse, Kirk was actually carrying out Federation policy all along, he's doing what Starfleet trained and wants him to do, his job.

I suppose I should be posting this in the "Extreeemely unpopular Star Trek opinions" thread.

Robert

 

[Pauln6]

Starfleet will make decisions that will leave one scratching their heads. Like putting an Admiral who hasn’t been in space for two and a half years in command of a ship he knows little to nothing about.*

*TMP is one of my favorite movies ever.

I suppose real world politics can be equally head scratching: Donald Trump for President? Was Trump adopted as the best candidate to do a good job with his inexperience or the best candidate to beat the opposition?

That said, Kirk bullied Nogura into agreeing. He probably persuaded him that he could coax the best out of the crew that did know how to operate the ship. He certainly would not be the first military leader placed in command of a situation he knew nothing about.

 

[BillJ]

I suppose real world politics can be equally head scratching: Donald Trump for President? Was Trump adopted as the best candidate to do a good job with his inexperience or the best candidate to beat the opposition?

In Star Trek, I just chalk oddities like those in TMP or 2009 up to unusual circumstances and move along.

 

[Pauln6]

In Star Trek, I just chalk oddities like those in TMP or 2009 up to unusual circumstances and move along.

Personally, I interpret it more like Starfleet really isn't that big, especially when compared to the size of the Federation. They rely on warning systems to move their meagre resources around and something as fast as V'Ger caught them with their ships in the wrong place.

It's just another piece of silliness in NuTrek that the entire fleet that wasn't at Earth was out of contact with anyone. But then every iteration of the franchise has extreme silliness at one point or another.

 

[BillJ]

It's just another piece of silliness in NuTrek that the entire fleet that wasn't at Earth was out of contact with anyone. But then every iteration of the franchise has extreme silliness at one point or another.

We've learned throughout Trek, that Sector 001 is the most isolated area in the galaxy where starship coverage is concerned. Every other ship is hours, days or weeks away depending on the plot need. As far as the Enterprise goes, her communications were down (much like the subspace interference in "The Doomsday Machine" that required them to go and physically warn Rigel) and they were unable to contact anyone and had to physically meet up with the fleet that was in the Laurentian system.

 

[Pauln6]

We've learned throughout Trek, that Sector 001 is the most isolated area in the galaxy where starship coverage is concerned. Every other ship is hours, days or weeks away depending on the plot need. As far as the Enterprise goes, her communications were down (much like the subspace interference in "The Doomsday Machine" that required them to go and physically warn Rigel) and they were unable to contact anyone and had to physically meet up with the fleet that was in the Laurentian system.

But if the Enterprise's communications are down, would not the most logical thing be to beam Kirk with an escort to Scotty's base with instructions to use his communications? Or any other nearby base? Subspace communications to someone nearer to the fleet would be waaaaaay faster than limping there at warp 3. Stopping at Scotty's base to repair the engines or communications would also have been faster. Spock's actions at this point don't make much sense.

As plot points go, it could have been covered off if Nero had been destroying subspace arrays on his way but that would have tipped everyone off sooner of course.

 

[BillJ]

But if the Enterprise's communications are down, would not the most logical thing be to beam Kirk with an escort to Scotty's base with instructions to use his communications? Or any other nearby base? Subspace communications to someone nearer to the fleet would be waaaaaay faster than limping there at warp 3. Stopping at Scotty's base to repair the engines or communications would also have been faster. Spock's actions at this point don't make much sense.

As plot points go, it could have been covered off if Nero had been destroying subspace arrays on his way but that would have tipped everyone off sooner of course.

Or something with the Red Matter black hole is creating interference locally and the Laurentian system is closer than going to another system with subspace communications capabilities.

I’ve found if one likes something, they’ll figure a way around the implausibility of certain plot points, if they don’t then they are unforgivable and are a stain on the narrative.

Trust me, I’ve been on the opposite side of the equation where Discovery is concerned.

 

[Pauln6]

Or something with the Red Matter black hole is creating interference locally and the Laurentian system is closer than going to another system with subspace communications capabilities.

I’ve found if one likes something, they’ll figure a way around the implausibility of certain plot points, if they don’t then they are unforgivable and are a stain on the narrative.

Trust me, I’ve been on the opposite side of the equation where Discovery is concerned.

Well it would be really weird if Scotty didn't have a subspace radio especially if he has emitters powerful enough to send a transporter signal (which uses a subspace carrier wave). It's anecdotally implied that Scotty's communications are offline. He was unaware of Vulcan's distress call, he was unaware an the escape pod emergency beacon, and he thought Kirk was a supply run. It would make sense if Nero took out communications but that should have been addressed in dialogue. However, if both ship and base had no communications, how could Spock know, and why wouldn't Spock have sent someone to check?

I have always disliked they way Kirk stumbles across Spock in a cave. For me it would have made so much more sense if Kirk had been sent to the base under guard and found Spock already there working to restore communications. The monster scenes could still have been used when Kirk was sent out to restore the array.

I do, however, endorse McCoy's origin. He was definitely an old country doctor before joining Starfleet. On that basis, they could have indeed known each other from their academy days.

 

[BillJ]

However, if both ship and base had no communications, how could Spock know, and why wouldn't Spock have sent someone to check?

Spock would have likely scanned for interference. It is one of those things that the Abrams films did so well, much like TOS, they didn't have to spell out every step of the way for the audience. For me, I don't need to see Spock cover his bases to know that he did it.

I have always disliked they way Kirk stumbles across Spock in a cave.

I always liked this meeting.

I do, however, endorse McCoy's origin. He was definitely an old country doctor before joining Starfleet. On that basis, they could have indeed known each other from their academy days.

I had no issues with the way they handled McCoy and his relationship with Kirk. Their interactions rang true for me.

Of course, everyone's mileage will vary.

 

[Pauln6]

Spock would have likely scanned for interference. It is one of those things that the Abrams films did so well, much like TOS, they didn't have to spell out every step of the way for the audience. For me, I don't need to see Spock cover his bases to know that he did it.



I always liked this meeting.



I had no issues with the way they handled McCoy and his relationship with Kirk. Their interactions rang true for me.

Of course, everyone's mileage will vary.

I don't always need everything explained in detail but it does make me scratch my head when something blindingly obvious is just overlooked in favour of a dumb course of action. It's one of the weaknesses of a show like Trek, forgetting what the magical technology can do instead of not making it so damn magical in the first place.

I do think it makes much better sci fi if they spell out the obstacles when discussing their options. That's one of my favourite parts!

To clarify, I don't dislike the meeting between Kirk and Spock prime just that it happened randomly in a cave, like a Q activated an infinite improbability drive. It would have been just as powerful for me if Spock had come to him in his cell at the base. The dialogue would be pretty much identical. The only difference would be that Kirk would then have to persuade Scotty to release him.

 

[BillJ]

I do think it makes much better sci fi if they spell out the obstacles when discussing their options. That's one of my favourite parts!

I like it, but I prefer that stuff in novels versus live action.

...like a Q activated an infinite improbability drive.

Welcome to Star Trek.

 

[Timo]

...It was a pretty big and spelled-out plot point that Fate was trying to restore Kirk's life to how it should be, at least according to Spock Prime. Of course, Fate might simply have been Spock Prime's middle name here, but he wasn't in control of much at that point of the story. And time restoring itself is what happens in pretty much every time travel episode of Trek, so Spock believing in Fate is good continuity.

So yes, I find the cave encounter incredibly unlikely - and utterly plausible. The communications angle takes some explaining, though...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pauln6]

...It was a pretty big and spelled-out plot point that Fate was trying to restore Kirk's life to how it should be, at least according to Spock Prime. Of course, Fate might simply have been Spock Prime's middle name here, but he wasn't in control of much at that point of the story. And time restoring itself is what happens in pretty much every time travel episode of Trek, so Spock believing in Fate is good continuity.

So yes, I find the cave encounter incredibly unlikely - and utterly plausible. The communications angle takes some explaining, though...

Timo Saloniemi

Lol. Ah yes, a wizard did it.

 

[Poltargyst]

Well it would be really weird if Scotty didn't have a subspace radio especially if he has emitters powerful enough to send a transporter signal (which uses a subspace carrier wave). It's anecdotally implied that Scotty's communications are offline. He was unaware of Vulcan's distress call, he was unaware an the escape pod emergency beacon, and he thought Kirk was a supply run. It would make sense if Nero took out communications but that should have been addressed in dialogue. However, if both ship and base had no communications, how could Spock know, and why wouldn't Spock have sent someone to check?

I have always disliked they way Kirk stumbles across Spock in a cave. For me it would have made so much more sense if Kirk had been sent to the base under guard and found Spock already there working to restore communications. The monster scenes could still have been used when Kirk was sent out to restore the array.

I do, however, endorse McCoy's origin. He was definitely an old country doctor before joining Starfleet. On that basis, they could have indeed known each other from their academy days.

I'd just as soon they not have the monster scene. It made the movie feel more like Star Wars than Star Trek.

 

[MAGolding]

I've always wondered why, after the code 710 that they didn't try to talk to Vendikar instead...

Possibly they might not have known about the specific planet Vendikar or Emeniar III. On the other hand the Valiant did report that Eminiar VII was involved in a space war, and so probably learned and reported who they were fighting before being destroyed.

Forx says:

FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.

Fox doesn't specify where exactly a treaty port has to be located to save so many lives.

Possibly the treaty port can't be anywhere in star cluster 321 but has to be in the Eminiar system. If that was the case it would presumably limit the possible planets to Eminair III (Vendikar) and Eminair VIII. And I don't know why nobody mentined thepossibility of getting a treaty port on Vendikar.

 

[Timo]

We don't really know whether the loss of life is blamed on the locals, or is already known to be due to other factors and the locals are merely going to be the victims of Starfleet's effort to expand its reach. But we may just as well interpret that Fox is already specifically thinking the Eminians are harboring pirates if not being those themselves, and is going to force the treaty port out of them as a punitive measure as much as a remedial one.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

A port probably will involve planet-side facilities. We know Vendikar originally was settled by Eminiar Seven and now a ruthless enemy which is highly advanced technologically. Perhaps Vendikar has a "hostile" environment and the people lived in protective domes or underground. Or instead of terraforming the planet, maybe the people were mutated to survive on the planet and it would not make a good planet-side facility for humans. Vendikar is the third planet in the system, so, probably hotter than Eminiar Seven which is the seventh planet in the system. Vendikar could be an eyeball planet, too.

 

[Timo]

Might also be the Federation thinks Eminiar is the capital and Vendikar just a settlement loyal to the capital. Spock indicates unfamiliarity with the enemies of Eminiar, after all: Kirk only knows that the Valiant reported Eminiar as being at war with their "nearest neighbor", which Starfleet may have mistaken for another star system and species entirely (especially as the war would have been quite sterile and hands-off back then already).

Going straight for the place known to be the local capital is a reasonable thing to do, then - and immediately diverting to another settlement in the system when Eminiar turns a cold shoulder is an unlikely course of action.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pauln6]

I know you can flog a story to death some of these speculations about the wider politics make me wish some Trek stories were in two parts more akin to old school doctor who.

 

[matthunter]

Lol that might be valid comparison if he spent 90% of his role in his underwear but that was it for her, bless.

You should probably clarify if you're talking about the Orion girl, because if you mean Carol, you're objectively wrong.