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How human are humans?

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Abi Smith

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The humans we see in Trek are not just polymaths, able to read alien control panels, undertake complex warp theory calculations etc but also beat the tar out of a Klingon in physical combat.
Do we just put it down to most characters being in Starfleet, the best of the best, with access to a fine education, good diet, exercise and artificial gravity? Or is there something else going on?

ALL Trek humans' ancestors survived World War III, the Eugenic Wars and Col. Green exterminating the radiation sick. Therefore the humans of the Trek universe are actually descended from eugenically selected, genetically enhanced ubermensch and should be a lot more chill to Bashir.
Was this ever addressed?
 
That’s no different from saying we were genetically selected to survive the Black Plague.

Sure they’re human, they are the product of their upbringing.

I think fear of genetic manipulation is very human. The fear of being replaced. I always found it contrary to Star Trek idealism the way augments were treated when it wasn’t their fault. But it is certainly understandable, like sports steroid scandals but in real life for real jobs. If genetic augmentation is okay, everyone must do it to reasonably compete for any job.
 
C.E. Evans said:
How genetically different are the Humans of today from those of 300 years ago?
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We're a whole lot taller and healthier, on average. In 300 years, per Star Trek, we'll have solved all these other pesky medical issues, and generally have the resources to give everyone adequate lives.
 
JirinPanthosa said:
I think fear of genetic manipulation is very human. The fear of being replaced. I always found it contrary to Star Trek idealism the way augments were treated when it wasn’t their fault.
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Actually, in a sense, it WAS their fault. Even though they didn’t ask to be created...they still embraced it, reveled in it. And that makes them just as guilty as their creators.

Augments aren't just any example of genetic engineering. They were created for a specific purpose: to want power, to demand it, to seize it, by any means necessary. That is their sole reason for existence. They can't NOT rule.

Given this, it's understandable that there'd be a backlash against genetically engineered humans. Even those who are not Augments. Julian Bashir, for example, is not an Augment. He did undergo genetic engineering, yes. But he is not an Augment, specifically. That term is reserved for Khan and his ilk. But people like Julian suffer the same kind of stigma.

It's not right, it's not logical, but it is understandable.

And it will happen IRL. If genetic engineering of humans ever becomes commonplace and realistic, there wlll always be those who fear it, who fear that those who are engineered will become the privileged upper class, and those who can't afford (or don't want) such procedures will be relegated to the lower class who have no rights. Just like in Gattaca.

It doesn't matter if that kind of system ever WILL arise. All that matters is that there are those who are afraid it will arise. I know, because I would be one of those people who fear it. And I would not be alone.
 
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That's not fair, Julian Bashir and the Jack Pack didn't ask to be different, their parents made the decision for them and they were bound to it their entire lives. Bashir didn't have a choice to embrace his augmentation, he was who he was and he couldn't change it.
 
In my head fanon all humans were enhanced which is why they can live to 140 plus. Julian Bashir and the Jack Pack were just more enhanced than others.
 
To be fair, Bashir was pretty complicit in covering up his parents' crimes, going so far as to live a double life, undoubtedly supplanting others during his career while simultaneously trying to hide some of his superabilities from investigation. And he was allowed to keep his job and ill-gotten gains.

Of course, I'm of the opinion that many, many humans are secretly genetically enhanced throughout the series. Not just Bashir and probably Elizabeth Lense, but what about Barclay? Geordi? Wesley?
 
Tim Thomason said:
Of course, I'm of the opinion that many, many humans are secretly genetically enhanced throughout the series. Not just Bashir and probably Elizabeth Lense, but what about Barclay? Geordi? Wesley?
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Well unless you're stating that Wesley was genetically enhanced to be irritating I don't know how you picked that one out of the hat :hugegrin:
 
Bashir covered up his parents crimes but he did it under threat of being banned from his entire life and career.

If my parents committed a crime that could lead me to getting fired and blacklisted from every decent career, I'd probably cover it up too.

If every person who is high on the IQ bell curve is genetically engineered, half the people I'm friends with are genetically engineered.
 
Hmmmm and here I thought this thread was going to be about the no-conflict humans of paradise.

If we're bringing us Gattaca, may I also bring up Black Mirror's "Men Against Fire"?

Genetic-engineering is on its way. See techs like CRISPR. As is the possibility that we're all already early Borg via our iPhones.

Be that as it may, there's something icky about the idea that our heroes are actual "ubermeschen," especially where our political discourse is at the moment.
 
Abi Smith said:
The humans we see in Trek are not just polymaths, able to read alien control panels, undertake complex warp theory calculations etc but also beat the tar out of a Klingon in physical combat.
Do we just put it down to most characters being in Starfleet, the best of the best, with access to a fine education, good diet, exercise and artificial gravity? Or is there something else going on?

ALL Trek humans' ancestors survived World War III, the Eugenic Wars and Col. Green exterminating the radiation sick. Therefore the humans of the Trek universe are actually descended from eugenically selected, genetically enhanced ubermensch and should be a lot more chill to Bashir.
Was this ever addressed?
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I don't think the feats you're listing here are really that impressive or universal.

Multilingualism (even to high numbers of languages) is actually not at all unusual in human history. In fact, the smartest people in some tribal societies are capable of mental feats of memory that dwarf 90% of what the rest of us are capable of, simply because they have to rely on their brain rather than writing things down/saving computer files. And if you're simply talking about them reading panels on ships that have been previously unknown, the dialogue around that makes it clear that Star Trek ships all tend to have the same basic design features which must relate to one another in a limited number of possible ways - so they should be easy to figure out for anyone who is well versed in how starships work (and we do see people who can't figure that sort of thing out, as well).

Beating up a Klingon is nothing to write home about, specifically because it does seem like everyone can do it. And that doesn't just include humans. Hell, even Quark - although he certainly would have died in the end - actually managed to hold off a Klingon temporarily in ritual battle. Klingons look scary and a precious few of them may be the fiercest, strongest warriors in the galaxy, but in general they're nothing special in terms of strength or skill.

And as for Warp Theory calculations, one could just as easily be a dark ages scientist looking in to the modern age and marveling at how those future people can do Quantum Theory calculations. Certainly the actual calculations part of warp theory is not something that we see every character doing - it's focused on those people who've actually studied for that sort of thing. And even most of them still seem to use the computer's assistance most of the time.
 
If genetic engineering is something simple to do in the 24th century, I wonder why the entire Romulan and Cardassian armies aren't genetically engineered super people. Also wonder why rich Ferengi don't just genetically select all their children to be male and give their sons genes to be better at profit.

We're pretty far off from being able to do complex genetic transformations that don't result in cancer. We're maybe a little closer to being able to cure genetic diseases but not to being able to design our entire genome.

Clearly 24th century humans are smarter than 20th century humans, because elementary schoolers learn calculus. I don't think long life is evidence of that though, that's an effect of medical technology.
 
Abi Smith said:
ALL Trek humans' ancestors survived World War III, the Eugenic Wars and Col. Green exterminating the radiation sick. Therefore the humans of the Trek universe are actually descended from eugenically selected, genetically enhanced ubermensch and should be a lot more chill to Bashir.
Click to expand...

That doesn't hold water. Let's look at the recorded death tolls -- 30 million for the Eugenics Wars, 600 million for WWIII, hundreds of thousands for Green's genocide. The projected world population for 2050 is just shy of 10 billion people, so that means all those conflicts would kill a hair over 6 percent of the Earth's population. Hardly enough to have the kind of global "eugenic" effect you suggest.

Indeed, presumably the population of strong, capable, robust humans would've been reduced by a global war, because they would've been favored as frontline soldiers and thus would've had a higher mortality rate than other populations.
 
JirinPanthosa said:
That's not fair, Julian Bashir and the Jack Pack didn't ask to be different, their parents made the decision for them and they were bound to it their entire lives. Bashir didn't have a choice to embrace his augmentation, he was who he was and he couldn't change it.
Click to expand...

That's why I made a point to separate the Jack Pack and Julian from the Augments.

Not everyone who's genetically engineered is in fact an Augment. That term only applies to people like Khan.

Actually, Julian is the lucky one, when you think about it. He has a successful Starfleet career and is a reasonably well adjusted human being, with no major personality disorders or lust for power or anything like that. The Jack Pack, though, while not being Augments, still have a number of serious disorders affecting them. Even if genetic engineering doesn't always lead to an Augment, it can still result in maladjusted individuals like the Jack Pack. So the probability that something WILL go wrong seems to be just too much to risk.

Especially when you also consider what happened in TNG's "Unnatural Selection". The genetic tinkering in that episode actually resulted in the deaths of an entire starship crew. So there's that as well.
 
Tim Thomason said:
We're a whole lot taller and healthier, on average.
Click to expand...
Going back to the OP, would that make us any less Human than our ancestors? Personally, I don't think so.
In 300 years, per Star Trek, we'll have solved all these other pesky medical issues, and generally have the resources to give everyone adequate lives.
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I would still consider them Human too.
 
I am not for genetic enhancements at all because as Spock rightly pointed out, superior ability breeds superior ambition. Those augments were who they were because of those enhancements. Bashir at least was at heart a compassionate and good, moral person.

Looking at the series BLACK MIRROR... it scares the hell out of me because we are so close to being those episodes. Recordings of what you actually see, altering your perceptions so you see a monster instead of a person, having your mind copied and downloaded to be a slave... it scares me more than any other horror scenario I have seen.

There are things we shouldn't be screwing with, like messing with genes or adding devices into our brains.
 
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