How do you think "Enterprise" was affected by the movie?
- Thread starter Jayson
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Um...Kirk lived in Iowa, not Florida.
Not anymore.... Jim's real father george may have been from Iowa...
Jim's stepfather is from florida near the Xindi scar...
New universe... New Rules.
I think that in this new Subprime universe, Kirk Subprime, Spock Subprime, and McCoy Subprime might or might not go back to 1930s Earth or, if they do, they might handle things differently from how their Prime counterparts handled things--perhaps subtly differently or perhaps drastically differently. For example, it's hard to imagine Edith Keeler being even remotely interested in and smitten with this cocky guy who shows up in her basement. She might have just called the cops on him. I'm not necessarily suggesting some Edith lives/Edith dies differences in the universe. I merely suggest that who knows what universe changing events now trickle down starting from 1930. My point is differences in the timeline (or branches creating alternate timelines, if that's your view of time travel) would begin starting in 1930--the earliest point in time Kirk has ever been.
Nero's incursion into the past would affect things (or create branches) from all the events that came after it--including time travel to events that actually cam before it.
Nero's incursion into the past would affect things (or create branches) from all the events that came after it--including time travel to events that actually cam before it.
A better case can be made that "First Contact" actually depicted THREE different timelines:
1. The original history with no time travel.
2. The assimilated-Earth timeline that the Borg created by killing Cochrane and preventing First Contact. (Picard and crew were pulled into the future of this timeline after the Borg went back in time.)
3. The timeline where Picard went back and changed historical events that would lead to Timeline 2.
We know for a fact that there were these three different timelines, because we literally saw them on the screen. Each timeline resulted from characters in the future of the previous timeline deciding to go back and change history, thus creating the next timeline that was different from the previous one. Don't be confused by the fact that Timeline 3 was somewhat similar to Timeline 1. That was Picard's goal, after all: to "repair" history. (Just because a body shop fixes your car after a wreck doesn't mean it's the same as a new car, even if it looks the same.)
It was this third timeline to which Picard returns "home" at the end of "First Contact," since it is "close enough" to his original timeline. It is also this third timeline where "Enterprise" takes place, and from which Ambassador Spock and Nero will come in "Star Trek XI." So, since Picard and the Borg Queen came from Timeline 1, and Nero came from Timeline 3, it really doesn't matter what changes Nero makes in Timeline 4 (aka the Abramsverse), since it has nothing to do with the events in "First Contact."
(The time-traveling Borg and Enterprise-E crew are still a part of history in the Abramsverse, since they came from Timeline 1, where Vulcan still existed, so whatever Nero does in Timeline 4, where Vulcan is destroyed, might create a new future, but it does not retroactively change Cochrane's memories of having already met the characters from Timeline 1.)
Think about it this way: What if in "First Contact," after defeating the Borg, Picard had gone to Vulcan and used "red matter" to blow up the planet? What would happen to Picard and the Enterprise-E? Nothing. They wouldn't fade away. Cochrane would still remember meeting them. They would just be in a new timeline whose future would be different from the one they came from. Just like Yar and Sela after "Yesterday's Enterprise."
Just because the original future is gone, doesn't mean the time travelers in the past cease to exist. If that were the case, then Nero and Ambassador Spock would cease to exist, since the future they came from is different in the new timeline.
That's the classic grandfather paradox: a time traveler cannot "prevent" himself from existing. If he goes back in time and kills his grandfather, the time traveler is simply in a new timeline with a dead guy who will never have grandchildren. But the time traveler does still exist, and he did still kill his grandfather, even if he will never be born in this new timeline.
No, because things that time travelers do in the past become a permanent part of history, regardless of what happens in the time travelers' original timelines.
In "Shockwave, Part II," Daniels accidentally erased all of Federation history, including his own history in the 31st century, but everyone on the Enterprise still remembered meeting Daniels and everything he had done in THEIR past, even if HIS past had been erased.
In "Yesterday's Enterprise," Lt. Yar went back in time, and had a half-Romulan daughter in the new timeline, even though events in the new timeline would never result in the future that she came from. But characters in the new timeline interact with her and her daughter, because she is in THEIR past, not HER past, and just because HER future is gone doesn't mean her actions in THEIR past are forgotten.
When time travelers interact in the past of any timeline, their actions BECOME A PART OF HISTORY IN THAT TIMELINE. Unless you go back into the past of THAT timeline, history doesn't change. It doesn't matter what you do in the FUTURE of that timeline, even if you prevent the time travelers from ever being born in the first place.
That question was directly addressed in "Shockwave, Part II," and the answer was, "Even if the time traveler's future is wiped out, the characters who met him in the past still remember having met him."
So, no, nothing Nero does in the past will affect anything that happened FARTHER in the past, since the time travelers who came before were from DIFFERENT futures than the one Nero has created, and are thus unconnected to anything he does in this new timeline.
When there's time travel involved, you can't use an analogy like that.
You are assuming that there was originally a timeline that didn't include Picard and company following the Borg back in time. We have no evidence that this was the case. I maintain that there was no such timeline, and that the events of ST: First Contact ALWAYS HAPPENED.
Indeed, as ENT's "Regeneration" showed - or at least heavily implied - it was the leftover drones from ST:FC crashing in the frozen environment, being thawed out, escaping, and sending out a distress signal, that got the Borg interested in Earth to begin with. (The Borg picked up the distress signal and followed it back to Earth. As we know from "Q Who" they were headed in our direction when we first met them...) So if there's a timeline with no FC, then no "Regeneration", and therefore no Borg, which obviously can't be the case.
It's an endless loop. A predestination paradox. It always happened. Go ahead, prove that it didn't.
The Case can also be made that it was... in fact I made the case !!!
They’re ALL rhetorical questions Babaganoosh... that's my point.
I'M Saying: What if in the Abram time line ( FOR EXAMPLE: Please remember that) let's say events are altered from Treks prime time line, and that leads to two people who originally hadn't hooked up, but now have, (Spock and Uhura) they have a kid and that kid has a kid and that kid has a kid... and 900 years in that future the progeny of that altered Abram timeline GOES BACK IN TIME to 1950 let's say, and alters history and keeps Henry Starling from finding Braxton's time ship… And then also as a result of the Abrams altered time line two people who did hook up, and now don't, possibly leads to Braxton never going back to 1967 at all because perhaps he's never born, that changes everything. My point is EVERYTHING goes out the window, and let's just enjoy a fresh new look at Star Trek without being bogged down (or Borg-ed down). So the Abrams universe can not, in my opinion, abide by what exists before Nero shows up: NX-01 Enterprise, Archer, Cochrane, Borg, Xindi... any of it. The window's been open and a fresh breeze is a blowing in, clearing out the cobwebs (what I refer to as the "Fabreeze theory"). I’m not saying those things didn’t happen, but they didn’t HAVE to happen either. These are all 'what-ifs". No one can ever tell me that time doesn't change and is altered in little bits and pieces constantly in Star Trek, why not just enjoy all the possibilities? The whole damn show is about time travel it seems, especially in the latter series’ so why doubt that ANYTHING can happen? That's what I love about the new movie, it's back to brave men and women joining up Starfleet to fly spaceships and have adventures with our pals Kirky, Pointy, and Doc Doc!!
I might be a cadet in this cyber whatzit chatty boing zip zap 'puter ding dong world, but I’ve loved Star Trek for 37 years, before the internet, before TNG, DSN, VOY, and everything else from films to cartoons…and I love it even more now!! Because it’s back baby, and it is so ON !!!
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My only concern is whether the song "All Along The Watchtower" exists in the new timeline.
That would be fine if the caption on the screen didn't read "IOWA" in big giant letters.Not anymore.... Jim's real father george may have been from Iowa...Um...Kirk lived in Iowa, not Florida.
Jim's stepfather is from florida near the Xindi scar...
New universe... New Rules.
Okay, here we go.
Enterprise Timeline- As per To boldly go it is established as part of timeline A
Timeline A- Prime Federation in effect, also in Prime Federation Future a Temporal War is fought in the past. Temporal war leads to various events - The Klingon Kaang puts the Enterprise into Space. This Temporal war effects the Enterprise, helping to shape it.
Timeline A2- Nero comes into the past, Timeline A Future no longer in effect. Temporal War no longer in effect as the Future Timeline has been erased. Without the Temporal War who knows what effect on the Enterprise. The Sphere builders affected as well.
Possible - Enterprise has an interesting but not exactly legendary run. However Enterprise in Universe A2 is diffenitley altered without the influence from the Temporal War. Temporal War no longer active because the Future beings no longer exist as A2 Future timeline is different. If part of Timeline A then Futurecops would have shown up with a big reset play.
However due to Nutrek being Alternate timeline, Enterprise from Prime universe still unaffected.
Enterprise Timeline- As per To boldly go it is established as part of timeline A
Timeline A- Prime Federation in effect, also in Prime Federation Future a Temporal War is fought in the past. Temporal war leads to various events - The Klingon Kaang puts the Enterprise into Space. This Temporal war effects the Enterprise, helping to shape it.
Timeline A2- Nero comes into the past, Timeline A Future no longer in effect. Temporal War no longer in effect as the Future Timeline has been erased. Without the Temporal War who knows what effect on the Enterprise. The Sphere builders affected as well.
Possible - Enterprise has an interesting but not exactly legendary run. However Enterprise in Universe A2 is diffenitley altered without the influence from the Temporal War. Temporal War no longer active because the Future beings no longer exist as A2 Future timeline is different. If part of Timeline A then Futurecops would have shown up with a big reset play.
However due to Nutrek being Alternate timeline, Enterprise from Prime universe still unaffected.
No, because we literally saw multiple timelines depicted on the screen:
Timeline 1: Before the Borg went back in time, there was a Federation.
Timeline 2: The Borg went back in time, stopped Cochrane's flight, and assimilated Earth. No Federation. The Enterprise-E was physically pulled into this new timeline, and could have stayed there forever with the 10 billion Borg inhabiting Earth, just like Admiral Janeway chose to stay in the new timeline in "Endgame," or Lt. Yar chose to stay in the new timeline in "Yesterday's Enterprise."
Pricard CHOSE to go back in time, and CHANGE the history of the timeline he was already in, thus preventing the Borg from assimilating Earth (as they already had done in Timeline 2). So the Enterprise-E went back and CREATED Timeline 3, which destroyed the Borg sphere, some of whose debris crashed in the Arctic. There would be no Borg debris in the Arctic, except for the CHOICE Picard made in the future of Timeline 2 to go back in time and CREATE Timeline 3.
Time travelers make the choice to go back in time and change the past, thus creating a new timeline.
A couple episodes, like "Time's Arrow," seemed to show only one timeline twisted into a causality loop, where the time travelers were not actually changing anything when they went back in time. But this episode is an anomaly among "Star Trek" time travel stories. In all other cases, time travel leads to either major or minor changes to history, creating a new timeline where characters either remain in the past, or "return" to the future of this new timeline, which may or may not resemble their own.
Since we know that Timeline 2 was a result of the Borg going back in time and assimilating Earth, creating an entirely new history, then we must assume, since the Enterprise-E used the same temporal vortex to go back in time, that they, too, created a Timeline 3, which created an entirely new history than was seen in Timeline 2.
There is NO indication that changing history creates a "causality loop" across three timelines, such that Timeline 3 results in the future of Timeline 1. To the contrary, each trip into the past is shown to create a new timeline that diverges from the one the time travelers were just in.
If they were in a causality loop all along, then why did Picard even bother following the Borg back in time? If it all played out as it should, then Picard did not even need to "fix" anything. The fact that time travelers are actively and knowingly changing history precludes the possiblilty of a causility loop. It is merely a coincidence that when Picard returned to the future of Timeline 3, that it even remotely resembled his own Timeline 1.
You are presuming that "Star Trek: First Contact" and "Regeneration" answered some big question raised by "Q Who." But "Q Who" and "The Best of Both Worlds" established that the Borg had already explored from the Delta Quadrant to the Romulan Neutral Zone, where they had already destroyed several Federation outposts. In later episodes, including TNG's "Descent" and "Voyager's" "Endgame," we saw that the Borg already had transwarp conduits throughout the Galaxy, and they could have attacked Earth at any time. There was no big mystery about "why" they were spreading out across the Galaxy -- that's just what they did.
"Regeneration" simply showed the Borg continuing to do what they had already tried to do in "First Contact": Contact the Collective to get reinforcements. But "Regeneration" was not taking place as a prequel in Timeline 1, nor even as a sequel in Timeline 3 shown at the end of "First Contact." It took place after FutureGuy created Timeline 4 in "Broken Bow" by ordering the Suliban Cabal to attack the Klingons, leading to premature first contact between the Klingons and Earth; and after the Suliban Cabal created Timeline 5 in "Shockwave" by destroying an alien mining colony and blaming Starfleet for it (an event that Daniels explicitly stated did not happen in the original timeline).
So, between the beginning of "Star Trek: First Contact" and the end of "Regeneration," we had actually seen five distinct timelines, none of which was a causality loop back to Timeline 1.
You are confusing a Predestination Paradox with a Grandfather Paradox.It's an endless loop. A predestination paradox. It always happened. Go ahead, prove that it didn't.
In "Star Trek," time travel over large scales of time seems to allow history to "heal" -- i.e., no matter what is changed, Fate or Time eventually bends history back to where it was originally headed. It's a similar phenomenon to why even in the Mirror Universe, where history has been vastly different for over 400 years (or maybe even forever), we keep seeing the same individuals with the same names in the same positions on the same ships in both universes.
Likewise, whether Cocharane and Lily flew the first warp flight together in Timeline 1, and never heard of the Borg, or if Cochrane flew his first warp flight with Riker and LaForge in Timeline 3, by the time the Enterprise-E "returned" to the 24th century, time had healed so that, Borg or no Borg, Federation history was nearly identical in both timelines such that in both, the Enterprise-E had disappeared in a spatial rift along with the Borg sphere, so when the Enterprise-E got "home," it was in a future virtually identical to the events they remembered from Timeline 1.
So, in effect, it is a loop, but not the kind of Möbius-strip causality loop you're talking about. It is a convergence of two divergent timelines, where history is the same, the present is different, but then the future is pretty much the same again, like a tree branch splitting off from the trunk, but then growing back into the trunk at a higher point.
Think of it on a smaller, more personal scale. Say you have a time machine (choose a model from any "Star Trek" episode), and you have set it up in your garage. You go into the kitchen at 5 p.m., make a snack, eat the snack alone in your kitchen, then you walk into your time machine at 5:10 p.m. and go back in time 10 minutes. You walk into your kitchen, where your younger self is eating a snack, and you grab a knife and stab your younger self, making a big, bloody mess all over your kitchen.
Clearly, we can agree that you are in a new, completely different timeline from your original timeline where you were in the kitchen alone at 5 p.m. There is no way this is a predestination paradox, because you did not "cause" anything in your own past to happen as it originally did. You have created a Grandfather Paradox, where you killed yourself before you ever entered the time machine.
But say you regret this murderous rampage and you want to restore history. Then, in Timeline 2, with your younger self's dead body lying in the blood-covered kitchen, you walk into the garage and set the time machine to go back to 5:01 p.m. You emerge in Timeline 3 just as your previous time-traveling incarnation grabs the knife, but you wrestle it out of his hand an stab him instead. Now, your younger self eating a snack just watched his older self get stabbed by his even-older self from the future.
Your younger self is now still alive in Timeline 3, but he has still witnessed an event that never happened in Timeline 1.
So now you decide to use the time machine again, but then go back to 4:59 p.m., before any time travelers even arrived.
In Timeline 4, at 4:59 p.m. you arrive in the past, and wait around next to the time machine for five minutes, but no further time travelers come back in this timeline. You hide in a closet while your younger self in Timeline 4 finishes his snack and gets into the time machine and goes back to Timeline 5 to stab his younger self, setting off a similar chain of events again. But you stay in Timeline 4 and use the time machine to go forward in time to 5:20 p.m., where you emerge 10 minutes later in the future of Timeline 4. You then destroy the time machine, and are never faced with any more time paradoxes again.
That scenario is similar to the events in "Star Trek: First Contact" and "The City on the Edge of Forever." There were multiple duplicates of yourself in multiple timelines, but by the time you got to the final timeline, you had arranged for events to closely resemble the events in Timeline 1, so that it seemed to you that you never left, even though you passed through more than three alternate timelines.
But that's not a causality loop. It's a convergence of divergent timelines.
If you are referring to "These Are the Voyages ...," that episode took place entirely in the TNG timeline, as a holodeck simulation of the NX-01. Who's to say that the events of the Temporal Cold War, or the Borg attack on Cochrane, were even a part of history at that point. The NX-01 depicted in that holodeck simulation was slightly different than what we had seen on "Enterprise." Maybe due to 10 years having passed, but maybe it was also a different timeline due to the Temporal Cold War and Borg attack. Or maybe, even after all the Temporal Cold War events creating new timelines, 200 years later in Timeline 17, there would still be an Enterprise-D with a Riker and Troi and Data, experiencing similar events to what happened in the original timeline.
What you are suggesting would be possible only if all acts of time travel in the Temporal Cold War were part of a causality loop, so that future events cause past events which cause the same future events, like in TNG's "Time's Arrow."
However, if you think about "Star Trek XI" as just the next episode of "Enterprise," then it does not negate any of the previous 98 episodes -- it just creates yet another change in the timeline, just like the Borg Queen, FutureGuy, Daniels, and the Sphere-builders did before. When FutureGuy changed the past in "Shockwave," that didn't retroactively erase Daniels from the past episode "Cold Front." Likewise, when the Sphere-builders ordered the Xindi to launch the attack on Earth in "The Expanse," that didn't retroactively remove the Borg from the past episode "Regeneration."
So why would Nero appearing from the black hole in a subsequent episode have any effect on anything Daniels, FutureGuy, the Borg Queen, or the Sphere-builders did 100 years earlier?
Besides, even before Nero and Spock went back in time, Admiral Janeway had already changed the timeline in "Endgame," helping the Voyager get home 20 years earlier, so the timeline that Nero came from is not even the same timeline that Daniels, FutureGuy, the Borg Queen or the Sphere-builders came from. (In the original timeline, the Voyager would still have been trapped in the Delta Quadrant when Romulus was destroyed, and Admiral Janeway could not have sent the Enterprise-E to Romulus in "Star Trek: Nemesis," so the last two movies were already in an alternate future before Nero even went back in time.)
Then again, who's to say that Daniels or FutureGuy weren't from the future where Vulcan had been destroyed on Stardate 2258.42? Maybe Nero and Spock STARTED the Temporal Cold War. ...
Yeah but Nero and Spock come from a future prior to Daniels and future guy.
When they alter the timeline then the future they come from. The timeline prior to Daniels no longer becomes invalid.
Without Daniels and Futureguy timeline the Temporal War no longer in effect.
Without Temporal war interferance Kaang no longer on Earth. Body no longer needs to be taken to the Empire and T'pol no needed on the Bridge.
A+B -C= No time war different Enterprise.
Seriously, anybody got any asprin?
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