Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Jayson, May 16, 2009.
You can't affect the past.
The events of Enterprise in the alternate timeline MUST have been effected.
Most of the story arcs in Enterprise relied on a Temporal Cold War happening in the 29th century or whatever and people from that timeline like future guy communicating with Archer.
In the original timeline/reality lets use the example of three different time periods
A) Archers time i.e Enterprise
B) Kirks time. i.e TOS
C) The Temporal Cold War, i.e 30th century or whatever.
Most of the events happening in A were directed by the events happening in C (Future Guys communication with Archer). If Nero arrived at B fragmenting the timeline and creating a new alternate universe, then all the events that happened subsequently, including the events that were meant to have happened at point C, will have been changed. Since the events happening at point A still require the events happening at point C to remain the same, which they likely wont, then i believe that Nero's arrival not only changed the future but also the past. By changing the outcome of the future he altered the events taking place in the temporal cold war, and thus altered their communication with Archer and the crew.
Nero's arrival DID alter the events that we saw in Enterprise IMO. Because A staying the same requires C to stay the same. Although A doesn't require B to stay the same, C requires B to stay the same, and likewise A requires C to stay the same. Tampering with B changes C which changes A.
Even if the prime timeline was completely erased and then replaced by the new alternate timeline, the events of "First Contact" and "Enterprise" could still have happened.
The Enterprise-E or Crewman Daniels would have originated from an alternate future just like Tasha Yar (and Sela) did in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "Redemption". Does that make sense? I don't know. But that's how the temporal mechanics worked in those episodes. Tasha Yar's future didn't exist anymore, but she was still there.
Enterprise's timeline is just fine - Admiral Archer's Beagle not so...
There are many different factions involved in the Temporal Cold War:
The Suliban, native to the 22nd Century receiving aid from their shadowy benefactor from the 28th... in light of this film, I'm calling him a Romulan descendant pissed at the Federation for making his race endangered.
The Xindi and their help from the unnamed Sphere Builders. In one episode, Daniels states that this race have the ability to predict alternate timelines.
Vosk and his kind (Space Nazis?), who became trapped on Earth and created an alternate 1944. This one in particular tried to bargain with Archer, by returning him to the future. The NX-01 Captain insists that isn't possible, because it would be completely different. Vosk maintains it wouldn't be changed...
The Tholians, no doubt with their own informant. They faught the Suliban over an abandoned Time Vessel and warned Archer about "temporal radiation", presumably a ruse so he would release it from the launch bay.
It's conceivable all these warring sides are from seperate universes, trying to ensure Archer's era ends up converging with their own reality. Whereas we see the opposite in the new film, Nero causing divergence (accidentally?) splitting off one timeline into two, at the moment of Kirk's birth... by attacking the USS Kelvin and depriving history of whatever legendary exploits Kirk Snr and Robau are famous for.
too much for my brain....
Thats it... I'm calling it.
Time travel always created new time lines.
Data's head time loop... that data head originated in another time line.
guardian; it just pulled it's whole planet (and everyone on it) into the parallel time-line.
I called it, no "un-calling"
I've said this in another thread, Nero altering the past has also altered the future of that timeline meaning the Temporal Cold War will either not happen or will be different meaning that everything that happened in ENT will now have been different. So Nero time travelling caused alteration in the timeline from long before the Kelvin.
You could argue that all those in the temporal cold war are from a different universe and that their universe isn't effected and their meddling only effects the new universe but that unfortunately contradicts all those Star Trek episodes.
The thing is, Abrams trying to make out that this is a new universe and the other original still exists and is simply missing Spock and Nero contradicts all of previous Trek so there really no point trying to bring logic to this mess.
The only way I think we can bring some kind of understanding to all this is to assume that the series of ENT we saw is not what happened in this new universe and everything that Archer did in this new universe is different because this universes future is different because of Nero's meddling.
In fairness to the Guardian of Forever:
Spock: "I see no reason for answers to be couched in riddle."
Guardian: "My answer is simply as your level of understanding makes possible."
and a moment later...
"Your science knowledge is obviously primitive."
Basically calling Mr. Spock thick then...
^^ Yes - I agree with you. ENT never happened.
Enterprise still happens and is canon. This new universe is reliant on the Prime Timeline in order to exist. Anything that happened in the Prime Timeline would ensure the creation of their own universe. As someone said, Future Guy could be a disgruntled Romulan that was pissed at the Federation for allowing his people and empire to be crippled. Maybe this was always meant to be? Perhaps all the time cops realized that this universe will be created no matter what they did, so the time cops from this universe simply ignore the 22nd Century war zone, as it is up to the Prime Timeline time cops to maintain events that are to happen and ensure the creation of this new universe.
You're thinking about this the wrong way.
Think of "Star Trek XI" as simply the latest episode of "Enterprise."
Instead of Daniels, or FutureGuy, or the Sphere Builders popping in from the future to stir up trouble for Archer and the Enterprise, it's Nero and Spock popping in from the future to stir up trouble.
It's one continuous timeline. Who's to say that Daniels, FutureGuy, and the Sphere Builders aren't all from the future (or futures) in which Vulcan was destroyed centuries earlier by Nero?
As someone else pointed out, once someone else changes the past, it stays changed, as we saw with Lt. Yar and her daughter, Sela. They went back to a new timeline, and the changes they made there were permanent.
Likewise, Picard and the Borg interfering with Cochrane's first warp flight before "Enterprise" still happened, even if they are from an alternate future, as Lt. Yar was, and Daniels and FutureGuy and all the rest were still interfering with the past on "Enterprise," even if Nero has subsequently erased their futures.
That simply means that Nero has won the Temporal Cold War.
There were plenty of "Enterprise" episodes where some time traveler said, "That's not how it happened in my past. Your timeline has been changed." That's exactly the same as what happened in this movie, which is chronologically, causally, and temporally simply the next episode of the "Enterprise" series.
Its all on DVD, Laser Disc, or Video. They don't change.
I see where he's coming from though. If you go to the 29th century of the abramsverse which could be radically different from the 'Prime' 29th C and there is travel back to ENT timeline from there it should affect it.
There's no reason to assume that the 29th Century TCW is based in the secondary JJ timeline.
I did have another thought on this idea. Since we are talking about a divergent timeline that branches off from the prime timeline then it could be argued the "Enterprise" events weren't altered because they didn't happen in the divergent timeline. Think of the Prime and divergent timline like Riker and Thomas Riker. Up until the divergence they were literall one in the same. It could even be argued that it might be impossible to travel back in time to anything past the events of Nero and Spock's arrival because you would not only have to go back in time but crossover back into the prime trekverse. In essence the arrival of Nero and Spock are basically the equilvent of the Big Bang event for this timeline.
True, but if events of the JJ timeline were 'similar' to the Prime line (as in the universe trying to right itself) then come the 29th Century of JJ Time it's quite possible that a version of the TCW would happen, not the exact same way, but that's the point - if it's not the same as the Prime version then it affects Enterprise differently. This I believe is a decent theory on why there are so many questions relating to the tech at the time of Nero's arrival, before he affected the timeline. [Headache, beginning]
I think the farther away you get form the "point of temporal divergence" (HA! TREKNOBABBLE!) the more different things become. So while only 20 years thinks are somewhat the same (Enterprise has meatier nacelles, uniforms have Enterprise deltas, etc) the 24th century make only have a few similarities while the 29th century may look nothing like the prime 29th.
It now looks even worse in comparison.
hoe exactly do you know that???
I agree that the events of ENT would be affected by the changes in the timeline caused by Nero, but so would other time travel incident (Tomorrow is Yesterday, City on the Edge of Forever, Assignment Earth, The Voyage Home, Time's Arrow, that DS9 2-parter with the Bell Riots, Future's End, First Contact, any other undocumented incident).
Separate names with a comma.