How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and TMP?

[Christopher]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I think he was the Tactical Officer in Season 1 of TNG and switch to the gold uniform on TNG when he took over Yar's position as head of Security.

No, because Tactical and Security are normally the same thing in Trek, and they'd both wear gold. Worf was the bridge watch officer in the first season. He was basically responsible for commanding the bridge when the senior officers were away (though this was really only seen in the pilot) or filling in at any unmanned station as needed.

 

[USS Excelsior]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

TOS didn't look like TMP because it looked too cerebral, just like the Cage pilot. Also the TOS sounds on the ship weren't there in TMP but were there in later movies.

 

[Forbin]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

No, because Tactical and Security are normally the same thing in Trek, and they'd both wear gold. Worf was the bridge watch officer in the first season. He was basically responsible for commanding the bridge when the senior officers were away (though this was really only seen in the pilot) or filling in at any unmanned station as needed.

^Also, the red shirt didn't show blood so much. He was such a sloppy eater.

 

[Timo]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Tactical and Security are normally the same thing in Trek

Actually, we have only ever seen two people who would sit on these two chairs simultaneously (and yes, I know neither job typically features a chair among the perks ) - and both got the double job after the ship took casualties.

In contrast, we have seen our good share of TOS officers who were either Security or Tactical but not both, and O'Brien once got to do a Tactical stint without any mention of Security, too. And in the TOS movies, our heroes ended up aboard their respective Enterprises by such complicated happenstance that their roles, the rare once when explicated, probably didn't reflect Starfleet standard practices much.

Worf was the bridge watch officer in the first season.

And quite possibly the ship's tactical officer, too, for all we can tell.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I really don't see what there is to "account" for. Starfleet got a new design aesthetic. What more explanation do you need?

Is it "plausible?" Well, I don't know. How plausible is it that uniforms and starship interior designs would stay the same OR change over the course of a decade for a space service created from the amalgamation of numerous different worlds' space services? Many things about the Federation Starfleet would probably remain fundamentally the same as organizations like the U.S. Navy, but others would almost certainly be different.

 

[Timo]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

...Indeed, for all we know, there was a coup or other change of regime in the UFP during or after Kirk's TOS mission, and the new government remade everything, just because.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS Excelsior]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

On the Stargazer, Vigo was the ship's weapons officer at tactical but not in security.

 

[Maurice]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

TOS didn't look like TMP because it looked too cerebral, just like the Cage pilot. Also the TOS sounds on the ship weren't there in TMP but were there in later movies.

TMP "looked too cerebral"? Huh?

And the TOS bridge sounds weren't there in ST 1, 2 and 3, not just just in ST TMP (albeit added to TMP in in the Director's Edition).

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

TOS didn't look like TMP because it looked too cerebral...

I'll have to think about that.

 

[USS Excelsior]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Didn't NBC say that about The Cage so they came back with TOS instead.

 

[Christopher]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

They didn't say it looked too cerebral; that doesn't even make sense. Cerebral means intellectual -- literally "brainy." They said they found the story of "The Cage" too intellectual and rarefied, not emotional or action-oriented enough.

 

[BK613]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Oh Bollocks! You make it sound like it was a single uniform or two. ALL the E1-E6 uniforms were changed. Even the chambris/jeans dungarees were replaced. And since E1-E6 make up the bulk of active duty personnel, the look of the entire Navy was changed. Dramatically.

The jumpers were replaced with already-existing uniforms. Dress Blue became the CPO style. Dress White was replaced with the short-sleeved shirt and white trousers previously known as Tropical White Long. The Undress Blue jumper was replaced by the navy blue shirt that had been worn by CPOs for many years. One new uniform for all grades was "Summer Blue," but that was just a new combination of the white short-sleeved shirt and blue (black) pants. The chambray/denim dungarees were not actually eliminated at that time and were around till the late '90s.

The styles of the uniforms were similar but the materials were not as high a quality. Point still remains that the public face of the Navy (manning the rail, liberty, color guards, etc) was not the same with the jumpers removed from the equation. Not at all. BTW, the Navy did replace the chambray/denim; I know this because as late as April 1980, when I went through boot camp, they were still issuing the utility uniform, a darker blue shirt and pants combo that could never be confused with chambray/denim. Dungarees were (apparently) optional but I never saw them until I had a shipboard assignment (Summer 1981.)

Those changes, broad as they were, are not comparable to what we saw with TWoK. In the Navy's case there were obvious precursors and commonality with existing uniforms.

From the theoretical POV, I can see how it looks minimal; from the POV of someone who was affected, it was a bit more significant.

It was not a clean-slate uniform reboot; you could easily see how the new stuff had evolved from the old. For the TWoK uniforms, OTOH: Where are the antecedents for the prevalent maroon color?

Could equally ask where is the precedent for red and blue in The Cage/WNHGB? Or the orange, white, and green of TMP in TOS?

For wearing jackets over shirts for normal duty?

Sulu is wearing a jacket with shoulder bars over a black shirt in TMP

For the metal pin rank insignia? For the one-piece enlisted duty uniform? The TWoK situation is much more out of the blue.


Justin

The difference is that we are not privy to all the possible changes or uniforms styles that could have occurred during the in-universe interim period between movies. That period is about a decade; the Navy uniform changes we are discussing came and went in a shorter amount of time.

 

[Christopher]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Could equally ask where is the precedent for red and blue in The Cage/WNHGB? Or the orange, white, and green of TMP in TOS?

Well, ENT used a mustard/teal/red system for department-color piping on the uniform shoulders in the 22nd century, setting a precedent for the TOS color scheme (though teal for science/medical fell out of use until the 2360s). Although the color scheme in the pilots was rather different, more olive, khaki, and blue-gray.

 

[Timo]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

The exact tones of red, blue and yellow have varied from era to era and textile to textile; having them "more subdued" (two shades of brown standing for red and yellow) in the TOS pilots isn't that much of an aberration, really.

And the shell game they play with the three principal colors may well involve more switches than the already known ENT-to-STXI, the STXI-to-TOS, and the TOS-to-TNG, perhaps so that at no time do two different combinations of the three colors actually "come in direct contact". Instead, just like there's the TOS movie scheme between TOS and TNG, there might be a scheme between ENT and STXI, involving colors other than the three classic ones, thus alleviating confusion.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Forbin]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

We of course missed the very popular puce, avocado and mauve period between The TOS and TMP periods.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

They didn't say it looked too cerebral; that doesn't even make sense. Cerebral means intellectual -- literally "brainy." They said they found the story of "The Cage" too intellectual and rarefied, not emotional or action-oriented enough.

I heard somewhere on Trek BBS that their biggest problem was actually how much the Cage cost to make since they didn't want to pay that per episode.

 

[Christopher]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I heard somewhere on Trek BBS that their biggest problem was actually how much the Cage cost to make since they didn't want to pay that per episode.

Not quite. Rather, "The Cage" simply didn't represent what a typical episode of the show would be, and thus didn't give the network the information that a pilot is supposed to give. At the time, Desilu was a washed-up studio that only produced one sitcom and survived by renting out its facilities, so when they proposed to make the most elaborate SF show in history, they first had to prove they were capable of it. So they pulled out all the stops for "The Cage" and made it the most elaborate, feature-quality production they could. Which succeeded at selling the network on the studio's capabilities, but it didn't allow the network to assess how much a typical episode would cost, because it was blatantly not a typical episode (for one thing, it ran about ten minutes too long to be broadcast in a one-hour slot with commercials). A pilot is supposed to indicate what the cost and logistical needs of a typical episode would be, so that the network can assess how much they'd need to pay for a full season. So they asked for another pilot which would represent a more typical episode budget.

I like to say that "The Cage" was made to sell Desilu and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" was made to sell Star Trek.

 

[chardman]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

How do I account for the drastic design change between TOS and TMP?

The same way I account for the drastic design changes between the 1966 Corvette, and the 1979 Corvette (or really, any model after 1968, when the car underwent a pretty massive redesign): Designers really like to redesign things.

1966

1979

These two cars are as similar to one another, and as dis-similar to one another, as the differences and similarities between TOS and TMP.

Times change, and things change with them. I don't see how or why that'd change in the future. It's that simple. I really don't understand why it's even necessary to ask the question.

 

[Timo]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I guess the worry is about the entire family owning the first car choosing to buy new clothes, a new house and new consumer electronics when buying the second car.

Or, more like all the families in the town buying new clothes, houses and electronics when also buying new cars in synch.

We're just not used to that sort of total style makeover in the diverse civilian world. But total makeovers are far less anomalous in the corporate world, or in rigid hierarchial organizations. And the military would quite plausibly be one of that ilk, even if it has been pointed out that there are some militaries where such makeovers have failed to take place, or have failed to be complete.

Let's remember that we don't have to believe in absolutely complete makeovers, though. Even though the TMP ship was extensively redone, another vessel of the same class was later seen to feature a less extensive reworking, with remaining TOS-style GNDN piping on the lower decks, and with a less reworked shuttle landing deck - but correspondingly with a bridge layout representing a newer generation than the TMP refit. And ST2 was originally intended to feature a new and an old Constitution pitted against each other...

Just because Starfleet Headquarters and the famous NCC-1701 represent a modern standard of equip and decor doesn't mean that the entire Starfleet would!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

How do I account for the drastic design change between TOS and TMP?

The same way I account for the drastic design changes between the 1966 Corvette, and the 1979 Corvette (or really, any model after 1968, when the car underwent a pretty massive redesign): Designers really like to redesign things.

1966

1979

These two cars are as similar to one another, and as dis-similar to one another, as the differences and similarities between TOS and TMP.

Times change, and things change with them. I don't see how or why that'd change in the future. It's that simple. I really don't understand why it's even necessary to ask the question.

But even in that instance, the dashboard layout, indicators, speedometer, icons, graphics etc are the same or at least recognizable. Not a single display or console in The Motion Picture looked anything like the ones in The Original Series. The consoles themselves were in roughly the same places, but that was it.