How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and TMP?

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I thought it was to get away from the "redshirt" cliche for security guards.

In-universe, it hasn't been explained.

I heard it was becuase Patrick Stewart looked bad in gold.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I to heard that the flip from Gold to red in TNG was to do with how the actors look, and Data was supposed to be Blue, but it didn't work with the makeup

 

[BK613]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Shrug, you said such changes occur only during a revolution or a coup; Zumwalt's changes were neither, they were very radical, and they were around for a shorter time than the TMP changes.

It was not a radical departure in style, it simply put male E-1 through E-6 sailors in the same type of uniforms as chiefs, officers and females had worn for decades. Rate insignia were unchanged. There were plenty of threads of continuity with established styles.



Justin

Oh Bollocks! You make it sound like it was a single uniform or two. ALL the E1-E6 uniforms were changed. Even the chambris/jeans dungarees were replaced. And since E1-E6 make up the bulk of active duty personnel, the look of the entire Navy was changed. Dramatically.

Of course, the 2009 changes are even more dramatic. The MCPON is running around in camo LOL. The Navy, wearing camo...

 

[CoveTom]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I to heard that the flip from Gold to red in TNG was to do with how the actors look, and Data was supposed to be Blue, but it didn't work with the makeup

Wasn't the entire position of "operations officer" created because they thought Data, with his android makeup and contacts, looked bad in the blue and if he was called "science officer" he would have ended up in the blue uniform?

Personally, I thought Data looked best in the red/cranberry command uniforms. In fact, I thought the yellow/mustard uniforms were the least flattering on TNG and yet it was the one we saw the most of.

 

[Enterprise is Great]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Yeah, it was a make-up issue and it clashing with the blue uniform. I'd love to see what Data would've looked like wearing blue.

 

[sojourner]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

^There must be a photoshop out there somewhere.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

^There must be a photoshop out there somewhere.

Here ya go:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2969459&postcount=5

 

[BillJ]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Do we know what year Phase II was supposed to be ? 23rd or 24th century?

At that point, they hadn't tied down the specific years when Star Trek took place; it wasn't until TWOK that it was definitively established as taking place in the 23rd century, and it wasn't until the end of TNG's first season (in "The Neutral Zone") that we got a specific calendar year for any Trek episode or movie. (Roddenberry didn't want to tie down the date too precisely. TWOK did it because Roddenberry was only a consultant there, and "The Neutral Zone" did it because it was shot from a first draft during a writers' strike, otherwise the date reference might've been cut.)

But Phase II was meant to be set just a few years after TOS, reuniting all the TOS cast except for Spock aboard a refitted Enterprise on its second 5-year mission. Remember, TMP was a rewritten version of the pilot script for Phase II, so that series would've been in the same basic timeframe as TMP.

Weren't there movie posters though with the tag line "A 23rd Century Odyssey Now"? Or something along those lines?

 

[J.T.B.]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Oh Bollocks! You make it sound like it was a single uniform or two. ALL the E1-E6 uniforms were changed. Even the chambris/jeans dungarees were replaced. And since E1-E6 make up the bulk of active duty personnel, the look of the entire Navy was changed. Dramatically.

The jumpers were replaced with already-existing uniforms. Dress Blue became the CPO style. Dress White was replaced with the short-sleeved shirt and white trousers previously known as Tropical White Long. The Undress Blue jumper was replaced by the navy blue shirt that had been worn by CPOs for many years. One new uniform for all grades was "Summer Blue," but that was just a new combination of the white short-sleeved shirt and blue (black) pants. The chambray/denim dungarees were not actually eliminated at that time and were around till the late '90s.

Those changes, broad as they were, are not comparable to what we saw with TWoK. In the Navy's case there were obvious precursors and commonality with existing uniforms. It was not a clean-slate uniform reboot; you could easily see how the new stuff had evolved from the old. For the TWoK uniforms, OTOH: Where are the antecedents for the prevalent maroon color? For wearing jackets over shirts for normal duty? For the metal pin rank insignia? For the one-piece enlisted duty uniform? The TWoK situation is much more out of the blue.


Justin

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I thought it was to get away from the "redshirt" cliche for security guards.

Partly. A screen test with Stuart/Picard in gold made him look "washed out". Ditto Data in blue/teal.

Then someone remembered that the wine red uniform jackets from the TOS movies were just as associated with "Captain Kirk" as the gold uniform he'd wore decades earlier.

Picard looked great in wine, Data and Yar in gold. And, as a happy by-product, the old redshirt security gag could be laid to rest.

 

[CoveTom]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Picard looked great in wine, Data and Yar in gold. And, as a happy by-product, the old redshirt security gag could be laid to rest.

I personally think Data looked the best in the red/wine uniform which we got to see him in a couple of times throughout the show. I think it made a better contrast with his makeup and contacts than the yellow did. I wish they'd put him in that normally. And with him being second officer, in addition to operations officer, I think they could have justified it. Heck, they put the helmsmen in it.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Weren't there movie posters though with the tag line "A 23rd Century Odyssey Now"? Or something along those lines?

One is visible on this page: http://trekweb.com/stories.php?aid=4b75e74fdb12f.

 

[Timo]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

the ship set sail on its 5-year mission 7.5 years before the events in TMP

Or perhaps 13-14 years before, considering that the launch of Voyager 6 was "more" than three centuries in the movie's past, whereas the real Voyagers 1 and 2 only got launched in 1977. The general mythos at the time seemed to be that TOS had taken place 300 years after the respective airdates - so a 1979 movie could well have been slated for 2279, too. And it doesn't seem as if there'd be a pressing reason to insist that the heroes have aged less than their respective actors have.

This gives a bit more time for the design changes - although it still appears that many Starfleet ships and installations outside the hero vessel (say, USS Lexington or Starbase 11) kept the old style alive for the full duration of Kirk's five years out there, and only began changing after Kirk's return if not later still.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

And, as a happy by-product, the old redshirt security gag could be laid to rest.

It also provides yet more evidence of TNG getting forgotten by the general audiences since Redshirts are one of the thing associated just with TOS and one of the things the general audience links to Trek.

So really there is nothing happy about it then is there.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

So really there is nothing happy about it then is there.

Twenty-one seasons and four movies of 24th century Star Trek wiped out by a redshirt gag that just won't die?

 

[Tom]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

On the flip side of the many uniform changes, it seems weird that they had TWOK style uniforms well over 50-60 years. Does anyone know the date when they changed from TWOK uniforms to TNG season 1 uniforms? I know we see Wellesly's dad in one and some other examples in TNG that indicate that the uniform change was done in the 2350's at some point.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

On the flip side of the many uniform changes, it seems weird that they had TWOK style uniforms well over 50-60 years. Does anyone know the date when they changed from TWOK uniforms to TNG season 1 uniforms? I know we see Wellesly's dad in one and some other examples in TNG that indicate that the uniform change was done in the 2350's at some point.

Circa 2350 seems about right.

But the TWOK uniforms underwent a number of minor modifications during the early 24th-Century. Towards the end, the turtleneck undershirts and the belt & buckle were gone and the insignia pin had become the first combadge, IIRC.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I know we see Wellesly's dad in one and some other examples in TNG that indicate that the uniform change was done in the 2350's at some point.

Two interesting interim uniform designs were speculated by FASA's TNG role-playing game sourcebook, but these were totally ignored (of course) by TNG canon. Re-use of the old TOS movie uniforms was a budgetry thing. They were hanging there on racks, it made sense to use them even though the longevity of the design doesn't really hold up to fan scrutiny.

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

On the flip side of the many uniform changes, it seems weird that they had TWOK style uniforms well over 50-60 years. Does anyone know the date when they changed from TWOK uniforms to TNG season 1 uniforms? I know we see Wellesly's dad in one and some other examples in TNG that indicate that the uniform change was done in the 2350's at some point.

Here is another example, Deanna Troi's dad (starting at Row 5, Column 1), from the Season 7 episode "Dark Page", courtesy of trekcore.com


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Picard looked great in wine, Data and Yar in gold. And, as a happy by-product, the old redshirt security gag could be laid to rest.

I personally think Data looked the best in the red/wine uniform which we got to see him in a couple of times throughout the show. I think it made a better contrast with his makeup and contacts than the yellow did. I wish they'd put him in that normally. And with him being second officer, in addition to operations officer, I think they could have justified it. Heck, they put the helmsmen in it.

Worf wore the red uniform too, during the 1st season of TNG and when he was on DS9 (starting at the end of his first DS9 episode, "The Way of the Warrior"). I think he was the Tactical Officer in Season 1 of TNG and switch to the gold uniform on TNG when he took over Yar's position as head of Security.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\