How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and TMP?

[Therin of Andor]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I think it was due to Rodenberry wanting to change the look.

The uniform changes were recommended by Robert Wise. The makeup changes to the Klingons (and Andorians) were due to new capabilities of then-modern no-bake latexes, with Roddenberry encouraging Fed Phillips to build on a crested alien design from (either) the "Planet Earth" or "Genesis II" pilots.

I mean realistically a military organization simply wouldn't drastically change their uniforms 3 times within 20 years.

They can in the era of "spray 'n' wear clothing", a concept conceived for TMP (eg. Ilia's leisure robe materialises around the Ilia Probe).

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Some of the new Phase II costumes are pretty cool, but I'm so glad those Hee Haw-like overalls, sans undershirt, never happened (shown red in Engineering on the first TrekCore page with the Ilia tests).

 

[Forbin]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Look at today's planes compared to the ones from even 10 years ago.

Ya mean an F-15C of today compared to an F-15C of 10 years ago?

I know, I know, the F-22 and F-35 are supposedly quantum leaps over the 4th gen fighters, but I don't think they look that much more "modern."

We've kind of stagnated in tech since the 70s, when the F-15 and F-16 were introduced. That's why I used the 1945 to 1950 example in my earlier post - the most modern operational US fighter in '45 was the P-51 Mustang. Five years later the AF's front line consisted of F-80, F-84 and F-86 jets, which looked and worked radically different.

Another quantum leap decade would be when capital ships turned from wooden square-rigged sailing ships to steam-powered ironclads. That too happened very quickly.

Often, changes like that happen in a historical instant after decades of sameness.

 

[Sector 7]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

In-universe explanation:
During those years between the 5-year mission and the beginning of TMP, there was an epidemic affecting most races throughout the galaxy. As a result, many of these races discovered that bright colors caused migraine headaches. Shortly thereafter, StarFleet instituted the Bland Rule which stated that only muted grey, beige and dull pastels could be used for StarFleet construction and uniforms.

The whole problem became academic when V'Ger gave Kirk the cure at Decker's request. In celebration, StarFleet changed their uniforms to red and eventually to the three colors used prior to the galactic epidemic.

See, problem solved.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Look at today's planes compared to the ones from even 10 years ago.

Ya mean an F-15C of today compared to an F-15C of 10 years ago?

I know, I know, the F-22 and F-35 are supposedly quantum leaps over the 4th gen fighters, but I don't think they look that much more "modern."

We've kind of stagnated in tech since the 70s, when the F-15 and F-16 were introduced. That's why I used the 1945 to 1950 example in my earlier post - the most modern operational US fighter in '45 was the P-51 Mustang. Five years later the AF's front line consisted of F-80, F-84 and F-86 jets, which looked and worked radically different.

Another quantum leap decade would be when capital ships turned from wooden square-rigged sailing ships to steam-powered ironclads. That too happened very quickly.

Often, changes like that happen in a historical instant after decades of sameness.

You could just as easily compare the F-35 Lightning II to the Harrier. Both of VSTOL fighters. Difference in age ~40+ years

Sure the Harrier has been updated over the years since it first entered service. But given 40 years of advancement in tech they are totally different.

But going back to the subject at hand.

If we consider the TOS Enterprise as a Mk I (1st generation) and the TMP Enterprise as a Mk II (2nd Generation) of the Consitution class. The differences are easier to explain, simply refienments in the design and technology. New technology.

And as I recall there was a line in TMP that said she was more or less a brand new ship.

 

[Christopher]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

^Even so, you'd expect some of the technology and equipment to be the same, even if it's just the chairs or the phaser pistols or the sickbay monitors -- something.

 

[The Castellan]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I think it was due to Rodenberry wanting to change the look. Trying to make up in universe explanations for things like this is pretty silly imo. I mean realistically a military organization simply wouldn't drastically change their uniforms 3 times within 20 years.

I'd not exactly call Starfleet the military.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

^Even so, you'd expect some of the technology and equipment to be the same, even if it's just the chairs or the phaser pistols or the sickbay monitors -- something.

Uhura's earpiece in TMP. One the first day of filming, Nichelle Nichols said, "My earpiece. I don't have my earpiece." The prop guy said he'd be back in a few minutes - and he returned from the Paramount props archive with an original TOS earpiece in his hand.

They made her a new one for ST II.

 

[Dick_Valentine]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

The transporter effect too, that seems to change in every movie for no real reason.....

Though it looks like psychedelic LSD vomit in TMP so I'm glad they changed it...

 

[FormerLurker]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I actually like the explanation given in Shane Johnson's Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise that the ship's refit was atypical--it started off as an upgrade to merely the engines, but then that led to a number of compatibility problems that resulted in a total redesign of the vessel with other new technologies that were already on hand. The improvements first incorporated into the Enterprise were likely implemented throughout the rest of the Starfleet afterward, IMO.

As far as the change in uniforms, that's no real stretch. The TOS uniforms were only in service for 3 to 5 years (depending on what chronology you subscribe to), so changes in Starfleet uniforms after awhile aren't uncommon. This was definitely the case during the TNG/DS9/VOY era.

I like this, too. It is plausible - as anyone knows who has gone through a *!*##!*! house repair. One thing just leads to another......

You mean "The Money Pit"?

 

[scotpens]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

. . . I mean realistically a military organization simply wouldn't drastically change their uniforms 3 times within 20 years.

I'd not exactly call Starfleet the military.

Oy veh, let’s not do that again!

 

[MacLeod]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

^Even so, you'd expect some of the technology and equipment to be the same, even if it's just the chairs or the phaser pistols or the sickbay monitors -- something.

Why? A ship that had been exploring on the outer edges of the Federation space might not have been able to recieve the latest model of Phaser that was indroduced in 2269. So it was just given them during it's refit following it's return to Earth.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

the phaser pistols

might not have been able to recieve the latest model of Phaser that was indroduced in 2269

The US military started using the Beretta M9 pistol in 1990, and are already in the beginning process of replacing it. The phasers we saw during TOS were likely just obsolete, and were replace with a improved model.

Perhaps Starfleet read the reports coming in from Starship Captains and R&D figured a way to prevent the weapon from being "jammed" by various technologies and various gods.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I'd not exactly call Starfleet the military.

Uh regardless of what name you wanna give it. Realistically they're not gonna drastically redesign the uniform 3 times within 20 years, as if its that important.

 

[Christopher]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

^Even so, you'd expect some of the technology and equipment to be the same, even if it's just the chairs or the phaser pistols or the sickbay monitors -- something.

Why? A ship that had been exploring on the outer edges of the Federation space might not have been able to recieve the latest model of Phaser that was indroduced in 2269. So it was just given them during it's refit following it's return to Earth.

But everything, right down to the chairs and the walls and the beds and the shelves? Come on. I live in an apartment building that was built decades ago. If I moved into the brand-new apartment complex two blocks up the street, some things like the range and the fridge and the light switches would probably be more modern, but I'm sure I'd still find some things that looked much the same, like the doorknobs and the faucets and the cabinets and such. And I'd still move in a lot of my current furniture and appliances and stuff, so there would be a mix of old and new. That's how progress works -- not a complete, wholesale replacement of every last detail all at once.

 

[Forbin]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

I'd not exactly call Starfleet the military.

Uh regardless of what name you wanna give it. Realistically they're not gonna drastically redesign the uniform 3 times within 20 years, as if its that important.

Why not? 20 years is a hell of a long time!

Was the Army uniform the same in 1905 as it was in 1885?
Was it the same in 1945 as it was in 1925?
Was it the same in 1965 as it was in 1945?
Was it the same in 1985 as in 1965?
Is it the same now as it was in 1992?

When I started working at ITT in 1981, we had Army guys in green tiger stripe camo coming in to review the equipment, and Air Force guys in blue BDUs. Now we got Army guys in tan digital camo, and Air Force guys in blue digital camo. Or are those the Navy guys? I can't keep track any more.

I just did a Google for the history of US uniforms. Lots of info too extensive to post. Yeah, they change a LOT!

 

[Deks]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Given the use of transporter technology, I wouldn't be surprised if they used the base structure as the same, while everything else was just altered in the matter stream.
:-)

That, and just how much of SF headquarters have we seen in TOS?
For all we know, majority of SF installations were already undergoing a drastic refit while TOS was on the air.
The Enterprise was simply the most prominent change.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Why not? 20 years is a hell of a long time!

Was the Army uniform the same in 1905 as it was in 1885?
Was it the same in 1945 as it was in 1925?
Was it the same in 1965 as it was in 1945?
Was it the same in 1985 as in 1965?
Is it the same now as it was in 1992?

....Did you even read what I wrote? I said it was unrealistic for the uniform to change not only THREE times in 20 years, but also DRASTICALLY for that matter. I did not say "its unrealistic that the uniform would change once in 20 years".

 

[SeerSGB]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

Huh, you know I haven't really thought about the TOS to TMP change. For some reason I just assumed that TMP style tech (Mirandas for example) came online sometime during the TOS era. Since the 1701 was suppose to be on the frontier we never got to see the new toys cause it hadn't be deployed or spread out to where the 1701 was roaming and when they got back to Earth they got upgraded to what was current standards.

 

[BK613]

Re: How do you account for the drastic design change between TOS and T

The Refit? The Kelvans helped them. In exchange for building that robot ship, the Kelvans shared...

As for uniform changes, beyond the tradition aspect, uniforms are rarely changed in RL because of the financial cost and logistical nightmare that such changes represent. TOS, OTOH, established that even a starship out exploring the galaxy could create clothing on the fly, and fairly quickly, even custom clothing like Hill People skins and Nazi uniforms. So maybe uniform changes are a trivial thing to do?