How do VOY fans feel about TNG Borg episodes?

[JesterFace]

Borg is a hard enemy to revisit, how often can you beat the unbeatable enemy until it's not that scary anymore?
My Borg timeline when it comes to STNG, only four episodes.

'Q Who', Q introduces the Borg to our heroes.
'The Best of Both Worlds 1', the Borg try to invade....
'The Best of Both Worlds 2' ....but ultimately Feds win.
'I Borg' (with some fanfic,) Picard had been a Borg and knew a lot about the Borg.
The plan he had to turn all Borgs individual worked.
Instead of trying to destroy an entire race and possibly innocent individuals he attemps to free all the drones.
I'd like to think it worked, because....
It fits quite nicely with the "trial of humanity" arc. Picard was assaulted and damaged by the Borg, yet he still doesn't want to try to destroy them but set them free.

Then there's Voyager but they have a Borg of their own. =)
Different timelines and realities and all that....

 

[XweAponX]

ENTERPRISE Prequel also had a Borg episode. I don't recall half of it, especially as I switched the channel at the time. I've never been fond of Prequels to begin with,

actually, “regeneration“ was a very good Borg episode, you have to realize archer knew nothing about the Borg, other than what Cochran let slip about the first contact debacle. But Cochran never saw a Borg, either. That would have been Alfre Woodward, and she kept her lip zipped apparently, maybe she discussed it with Cochran but probably not with anybody else. In fact that character got exposed to a lot more of the future than Cochran had.

all that archer had was some vague reminiscence of Cochran talking about Borg, but then Cochran reneged on the whole story. But that was enough to point him in the right direction.

they did not know how to deal with Borg, it was actually Dr. Phlox that figured it out. But Starfleet people would deal with the Borg on the assumption that the people infected could be fixed somehow. And that’s just a way of making more Insta-Borg.

that was kind of how Picard got into his Best of both worlds mess. The enterprise had damaged a good amount of the first Borg cube they ever saw. Even after Guinan warned him. They should have kept blasting that cube until there was atomic dust left of it. That was the only way to deal with them, and there was basically only one chance to do it- before they adapted.

Archer was the one to use that method, he blew that assimilated ship into tiny microscopic chunks.

actually, I think I am going to watch that episode…

 

[somebuddyX]

I like most of them a lot. I think these days I really dig "Q-Who" the most but "BOBW" and "I Borg" are also great. Nowadays I feel like "Descent" has too many things going on, the Borg aren't really Borg anymore, and it's really a Lore takes over the Borg story. But I will always love Crusher taking command.
The "First Contact" changes were inevitable, as it is in any long running alien villain like the Klingons or Daleks or Cybermen, but I do miss those original Borg.
I like them in "Unity" and "Scorpion" but that's about it.
"Regeneration" was awesome.

 

[XweAponX]

Borg aren't really Borg anymore, and it's really a Lore takes over the Borg story. But I will always love Crusher taking command.

yes… The Borg were assimilated by Lore. Hugh Borg might have been the way Lore was able to do it. They were just following Lore’s agenda. What was not clear in that episode was that it was only a small amount of Borg affected, possibly only one cube. And they changed their cube into a Winchester mystery house in space, A design that made no sense whatsoever… but, that ship was still big and dangerous.

I loved Dr. crusher, taking command, and I loved the sniping between Ensign Tate and Lt Barnaby. The episode was a direct reference to the previous episode “suspicions“, which James Horan also starred in. In fact, Barnaby was the only human he ever played other than the shadow man in enterprise… he’s been Cardassian, Jem Hadar, I don’t remember what else. It’s too bad they never brought Ensign Tate back.

even when I watched the episode for the first time when it was broadcast, I never accepted that the entire race of Borg has been turned into individuals. And I’m glad that this was corrected in first contact and in Voyager.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

I enjoy all of the TNG Borg episodes, if only for the "history" of the Borg. But their original visual appearance was very underwhelming to someone who was introduced to them on "Voyager." People say "Voyager" ruined the Borg, but they're pretty chilling in most VOY episodes they appear in.

 

[Lord Exor]

It's mostly a nostalgia thing. The Borg are no better in TNG and in many ways present as worse than the way they were portrayed in First Contact, Voyager, and Picard. I mean, they're beaten in BoBW because Data tells them to sleep. How is that scary?

Creepy cyborg zombies that can transform you into a mindless drone with a mere touch? That's scary. A deluded tyrant that callously sacrifices and murders her own people for petty reasons? That's scary. Borg being endangered by geometric paradoxes isn't scary, and neither is a species implied to be amoral simply because they don't know any better. The Borg can't be negotiated with? What was Hugh? Without the context of First Contact, Descent implies the Borg were seriously threatened just because Geordi and Picard had a nice chat with a single drone.

All of this incessant whining from fans over the span of almost three decades is spawned from an idea or feeling, and not the reality of how these enemies were portrayed. They felt "scarier" than they really were because they were new and unknown, and that's it. The Borg wiping a fleet at Wolf 359 is impressive, but also happens off-screen just like the Breen's attack on Earth. I don't see anyone talking about how terrifying the Breen are.

 

[at Quark's]

It's mostly a nostalgia thing. The Borg are no better in TNG and in many ways present as worse than the way they were portrayed in First Contact, Voyager, and Picard. I mean, they're beaten in BoBW because Data tells them to sleep. How is that scary?

It may not be scary in retrospect, but at the time when the episode aired, I found this solution baffling. Granted, I was only 13 or 14 at the time, but this was in an era when 'exploiting vulnerabilities in software by internet' wasn't as known as it was today. It was showing an unexpected achilles heel of a supposedly invincible enemy. I think that kind of context has to be taken in account.

Much like a modern-day reaction to Contagion when they discover they just have to reboot probably would be 'why wasn't that the first thing they tried?'

 

[FederationHistorian]

“Q Who?”, BoBW, “I, Borg” and “Descent” were enjoyable Borg episodes, with “Descent” being the weakest of the four. But in all of the episodes, the Borg still have a creepy aura about them.

DS9 gives us a different POV of BoBW – Sisko’s point of view. But the Borg’s aura continues.

Then GEN; not a Borg movie, but the El-Aurians are refugees from the Borg, so we are seeing thing from their perspective.

Then, FC in 1996, we are introduced to the Borg Queen. The Borg still have an aura at the end of the film, even though the heroes triumph.

Then Voyager – after its few Borg episodes - has “Scorpion” in May 1997 for the S3 finale. The Borg still has an aura, but its surprising to see them getting ragdolled by Species 8472. When VOY returns in S4 with “Scorpion Pt II”, the Borg still don’t have a Queen; it’s the Collective from “Q Who” and the first part of BoBW. The aura is still three because there is uncertainty as to what the Borg will do.

The Borg arc in VOY technically should end with Arturis at the end of S4, as it shows the desperation of the other Delta Quadrant species for an opposition to the Borg. But it just keeps going with “Dark Frontier”, when the Borg Queen is reintroduced and with Voyager trying to salvage a transwarp coil from a damaged Borg ship. When that happens, the Borg fall apart. They’re still a threat and invincible, but they are also easy pickings and the Borg Queen is Wile E. Coyote. That’s why all the fear about them went out the window.

Then ENT has its Borg Episode, and makes headway in regaining their aura. No one is bothered that ENT destroys the assimilated transport with primitive spatial torpedoes as the Borg are far removed from the Collective. And the NX-01 crew escaping y the skin of their teeth.

At the end of the fifth season of VOY, the Voyager crew should have ended up in the Gamma Quadrant, to preserve the aura of the Borg. DS9 ended at the same time,so there would not have been any overlap for the final few seasons.

 

[at Quark's]

Then ENT has its Borg Episode, and makes headway in regaining their aura. No one is bothered that ENT destroys the assimilated transport with primitive spatial torpedoes as the Borg are far removed from the Collective. And the NX-01 crew escaping y the skin of their teeth.

I can buy that because the transport itself was still getting assimilated and upgraded. Them being able to double the top speed in less than 12 hours is already very impressive but even Borg can't do everything at the same time. The number of drones on board is also low, and probably most are still in the early stages of assimilation and perhaps not fully functional yet.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

That's true. I enjoy the TNG episodes and see an inspiration for Seven in Hugh.



I'm going to disagree on that and make a controversial statement and say VOY was more consistent with their Borg than TNG was. TNG kept changing them: they scoop up cities, they're neither male nor female, they forcibly take tech, no they take and assimilate people, they basically settled on what Borg were at the end (and FC revealed a Queen) and VOY just carried that final incarnation in story onward.

On VOY the Borg always have a clear objective, pursuing perfection by assimilating new life and new civilizations...

All things which made the TNG Borg superior to the Voyager ones for me. The former were really mysterious while the later became ever more boring.

 

[Qonundrum]

actually, “regeneration“ was a very good Borg episode, you have to realize archer knew nothing about the Borg, other than what Cochran let slip about the first contact debacle. But Cochran never saw a Borg, either. That would have been Alfre Woodward, and she kept her lip zipped apparently, maybe she discussed it with Cochran but probably not with anybody else. In fact that character got exposed to a lot more of the future than Cochran had.

all that archer had was some vague reminiscence of Cochran talking about Borg, but then Cochran reneged on the whole story. But that was enough to point him in the right direction.

they did not know how to deal with Borg, it was actually Dr. Phlox that figured it out. But Starfleet people would deal with the Borg on the assumption that the people infected could be fixed somehow. And that’s just a way of making more Insta-Borg.

that was kind of how Picard got into his Best of both worlds mess. The enterprise had damaged a good amount of the first Borg cube they ever saw. Even after Guinan warned him. They should have kept blasting that cube until there was atomic dust left of it. That was the only way to deal with them, and there was basically only one chance to do it- before they adapted.

Archer was the one to use that method, he blew that assimilated ship into tiny microscopic chunks.

actually, I think I am going to watch that episode…

Great, now I'm going to have to give it another chance.

Until now, for me and YMMV, the Borg waned once "I, Borg" and "Descent" (esp pt 2) came about, though with VOY they found a neat way to continue them, at first and without Queen B. being there either. Also, with each subsequent viewing, I've only hated FC that much more (walked out of the theater during the 2nd viewing, have tried since but... no... not for me.) But ENT was in the middle of franchise rot and it showed.

Not to mention, VOY already screwed up the introduction of them, and forgot the Borg already scooped up neutral zone outposts but scribbled in blaming Q anyway, which is total bullplop and it's easier to argue how Q's interceding is what saved everyone's asses by the time Wolf359 occurred, as they had some defenses and quick thinking after the Borg kidnapped Picard and took all his knowledge and experiences (on top of the computers and other components from their introductory story, so don't ask how the same cut'n'paste troped-up tactics are overlooked by the Borg in FC or VOY after a certain point.) But the faff dialogue of "such three-dimensional thinking" to magically retcon whatever changes for the day since none of them would otherwise fit in at all -- a lot of Trek fans felt that way when ENT aired. Many ENT fans did not. I did. The show was burnt out and trying to get one more bit of glory by trotting the Borg into the prequel. "Time can be rewritten" works great for Doctor Who. 80s Trek worked harder to build a sense of continuity... at least until the early/mid-90s.

 

[Qonundrum]

“Q Who?”, BoBW, “I, Borg” and “Descent” were enjoyable Borg episodes, with “Descent” being the weakest of the four. But in all of the episodes, the Borg still have a creepy aura about them.

Descent pt 1 starts out great and, even despite the incidental muzak, the Borg are suitably terrifying with their new mission statement and cool ship design. Then Lore steps in. But TNG was almost coasting on fumes and it showed.

"I, Borg" rightly went in another direction, but also made character contrivances that were hard to swallow. I'm still on the fence given Guinan's previous passion and, all of a sudden, she's changed her tune for the sake of the plot and season 5 too often sets up one-sided contrivances...

DS9 gives us a different POV of BoBW – Sisko’s point of view. But the Borg’s aura continues.

Sisko had the best perspective for sure. And DS9 rightly didn't dive back into the well of the cybernetic meanies.

Then GEN; not a Borg movie, but the El-Aurians are refugees from the Borg, so we are seeing thing from their perspective.

And so close to Earth, with nobody near Earth - until Tuesday. The level of small universe syndrome in GEN is impossible to avoid.

Then, FC in 1996, we are introduced to the Borg Queen. The Borg still have an aura at the end of the film, even though the heroes triumph.

Not really. Pure style over substance, of which there's barely any. Indeed, given i's doing a role reversal for "Moby Dick", I was about the cheery on the Borg. Never mind all eight zillion plot holes and other issues, covered to death on youtube channels and not wrongly so.

Then Voyager – after its few Borg episodes - has “Scorpion” in May 1997 for the S3 finale. The Borg still has an aura, but its surprising to see them getting ragdolled by Species 8472. When VOY returns in S4 with “Scorpion Pt II”, the Borg still don’t have a Queen; it’s the Collective from “Q Who” and the first part of BoBW. The aura is still three because there is uncertainty as to what the Borg will do.

They start out very well, but once they bring in the Queen - and, indeed, even some continuity issues between "The Raven" and "Dark Frontier"... TNG did a better job in its TV series...

The Borg arc in VOY technically should end with Arturis at the end of S4, as it shows the desperation of the other Delta Quadrant species for an opposition to the Borg. But it just keeps going with “Dark Frontier”, when the Borg Queen is reintroduced and with Voyager trying to salvage a transwarp coil from a damaged Borg ship. When that happens, the Borg fall apart. They’re still a threat and invincible, but they are also easy pickings and the Borg Queen is Wile E. Coyote. That’s why all the fear about them went out the window.

^^this, big-time.

The Queen's introduction just ruins it all. Again. VOY was right in eschewing the character at the start. But having movie-grade f/x on TV thanks to cheap videotape editing techniques...

That said, the actresses hired definitely make the role watchable and elevate what's on paper, which is a lot when all is considered.

Then ENT has its Borg Episode, and makes headway in regaining their aura. No one is bothered that ENT destroys the assimilated transport with primitive spatial torpedoes as the Borg are far removed from the Collective. And the NX-01 crew escaping y the skin of their teeth.

Bingo. More franchise rot and a cheap ending, which is anachronistic for a few reasons, and there's no way Archer's torpedo should have destroyed anything with what those Borg knew.

At the end of the fifth season of VOY, the Voyager crew should have ended up in the Gamma Quadrant, to preserve the aura of the Borg. DS9 ended at the same time,so there would not have been any overlap for the final few seasons.

Definitely that. Season 5 and ENT just needed to avoid the worn-out staple.

While I enjoyed some of latter-era VOY Borg episodes, some were still burnt out trash (e.g. the one where they're conscious while during regeneration mode and acting like their own VPN-shrouded mesh network and Seven has the love interest and everyone playing in the woods and-- ugh...) "Endgame" was a step up, but it's generic action shlock. Still better than FC, by a large margin IMHO...

 

[ussrowe]

All things which made the TNG Borg superior to the Voyager ones for me. The former were really mysterious while the later became ever more boring.

I kind of laugh when TNG fans try to blame VOY for continuing what TNG already had done. The Borg had quit being mysterious by the time Lore was in charge of them.

Not to mention, VOY already screwed up the introduction of them, and forgot the Borg already scooped up neutral zone outposts

In fairness to VOY, TNG forgot they did that too and never mention it again. Probably because bug creatures were going to be the big reveal for that and the Borg were a retcon and one TNG kept changing. They steal tech, now they steal people.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I kind of laugh when TNG fans try to blame VOY for continuing what TNG already had done. The Borg had quit being mysterious by the time Lore was in charge of them.



In fairness to VOY, TNG forgot they did that too and never mention it again. Probably because bug creatures were going to be the big reveal for that and the Borg were a retcon and one TNG kept changing. They steal tech, now they steal people.

To be fair "I, Borg" and "Descent" didn't erase the original version of the Borg. Hugh and the other drones didn't change the past and the behavior of the collective.

 

[at Quark's]

I agree that Voyager didn't spol the Borg; TNG itself did. Most notably First Contact by introducing the Borg Queen as a relatively 'human' antagonist which could be reasoned with to a certain extent, even though it's one of my favourite movies.

The only thing I think Voyager is to blame for in this respect is they made the Borg too vulnerable. With Voyager traveling through Borg territory (not just a single roving cube as in TNG) they might have escaped once, or perhaps twice if they were extremely lucky, but no more than that. But obviously they only had the choice between doing what they did, or else featuring the Borg once or twice at most.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I agree that Voyager didn't spol the Borg; TNG itself did. Most notably First Contact by introducing the Borg Queen as a relatively 'human' antagonist which could be reasoned with to a certain extent, even though it's one of my favourite movies.

The only thing I think Voyager is to blame for in this respect is they made the Borg too vulnerable. With Voyager traveling through Borg territory (not just a single roving cube as in TNG) they might have escaped once, or perhaps twice if they were extremely lucky, but no more than that. But obviously they only had the choice between doing what they did, or else featuring the Borg once or twice at most.

To be honest, I actually consider the movies not to be the same as TNG but its own thing. They just use the same cast but often the characterization is kinda off, like with Action Picard compared to the one of the show.

 

[Lord Exor]

To be fair "I, Borg" and "Descent" didn't erase the original version of the Borg. Hugh and the other drones didn't change the past and the behavior of the collective.

The implication in "Descent" was that Hugh's individuality may have fundamentally changed the nature of the Collective. They left the extent of Hugh's influence vague, so First Contact actually restored the Borg as scary villains.

I agree that Voyager didn't spol the Borg; TNG itself did. Most notably First Contact by introducing the Borg Queen as a relatively 'human' antagonist which could be reasoned with to a certain extent, even though it's one of my favourite movies.

The only thing I think Voyager is to blame for in this respect is they made the Borg too vulnerable. With Voyager traveling through Borg territory (not just a single roving cube as in TNG) they might have escaped once, or perhaps twice if they were extremely lucky, but no more than that. But obviously they only had the choice between doing what they did, or else featuring the Borg once or twice at most.

At what point was she ever reasoned with? I see this point made every so often and I just don't understand it. Unless we're talking an alternate reality version from Season 2 of Picard, she's never been reasonable or relenting.

 

[Akiraprise]

The only thing I think Voyager is to blame for in this respect is they made the Borg too vulnerable. With Voyager traveling through Borg territory (not just a single roving cube as in TNG) they might have escaped once, or perhaps twice if they were extremely lucky, but no more than that. But obviously they only had the choice between doing what they did, or else featuring the Borg once or twice at most.

The only reason they escaped was because Seven of Nine was on board and the Queen had a soft spot for her. Otherwise I agree, they might have gotten away one or two times at most.

 

[at Quark's]

To be honest, I actually consider the movies not to be the same as TNG but its own thing. They just use the same cast but often the characterization is kinda off, like with Action Picard compared to the one of the show.

Fair enough. I just grouped the TNG movies here with TNG for convenience, as being 'Non-Voyager'.

 

[KelisThePoet]

I liked "I, Borg" well enough, I quite enjoyed "Unimatrix Zero," and I was lukewarm on Season 2 of Picard. But to me, the intriguing thing about all these "episodes" (Season 2 of Picard felt like one long episode) was that they set up the possibility for the Borg to become something new and different and potentially less antagonistic. And to me, the disappointment in all three cases is that there was no follow through,* and instead we got stories like First Contact, "Endgame," and Season 3 of Picard, that ignored if not contradicted the developments from the previous stories which could have shaken up and altered the Collective.

*Technically, "Descent" was the follow through for "I, Borg," but whether you liked it or not (I personally didn't love it for the same reasons others have stated--too Lore-centric), it was ignored right along with "I, Borg" in First Contact.