How do Niners feel about Voyager?

[TheGodBen]

Because you are a Niner and can't take the criticism?

I take criticism all the time, and sometimes I even consider the criticism valid and change my mind because of it. Like the time in the Voyager review thread where I backed down on planned point deductions for shuttle losses because a number of people convinced me that it was the wrong way to go. I have a track record of listening to criticism.

Seeing how you're general attitude is, you'd have agreed with them anyways which makes it perfectly acceptable.

What general attitude? My sarcastic, arrogant yet ironically self-depreciating sense of humour with frequent dalliances into the absurd? I don't see how that would possibly blind me from bigotry.

Don't bring real people and real deaths into this, it makes you look desperate.

Desperate perhaps, but I still think it is a valid point. If the murder of 3,000 people isn't an acceptable basis for judging an entire group of people then why is two or three people criticising a TV show?

Yeah it was, the folks I watched VOY with didn't hate him. It only got that way after the show was nearing the end and after it ended.

Have you ever considered that perhaps you were the person who was in a fringe group and not all the rest of us?

Because I'm the one that had the guts to speak up. Ah well whenever anyone here speaks up against the majority this IS how they often get treated.

No it's not. If you came into this forum and criticised DS9 the television show then nobody would have a problem with you, but you come in here and criticise the fans of the show, and that is why you stand alone.

Based on what, a poll hardly anyone took seriously to begin with?

Compared to your word this poll has far more legitimacy.

Alright, I WAS just going to leave this. But your Niner arrogance (which I pointed out earlier) pulled me back in.

Or perhaps I have a sense of humour? Did you notice that my presidential seal is a rubber duck?

Jesus Christ, you think people had guns to their heads, that this was just the most important drama in the world. Seriously, be an adult and walk away, and do it before a Mod comes in here and decides to make the choice for you. Put each other on ignore if you want, but knock it off.


J.

I appreciate what you're saying and you may very well be right, but I started this poll because of Anwar's claims about Niners in other threads and I wanted to see if he was right. According to those who took part in the poll he is not. Because the findings don't match his opinions he chooses to ignore the results of the poll and go on criticising Niners even after the mods told him to knock it off.

If Anwar is going to come into this thread and disrespect it and its participants then I will provide him the rope to hang himself with. If he stops badmouthing Niners and other people who just plain didn't like Voyager then I would not have a problem with him.

 

[Amaris]

YOU pulled you back in.

I tried to walk away, he wouldn't let me.

you can put him on ignore if he bothers you so much

That's the cowards' way out, the way for someone who gave up on their argument and their beliefs.

be an adult and walk away

Tried, he wouldn't let me.

So he forcibly made you post? Incredible. The U.S. government would be VERY interested in that kind of technology. At the very least you should take responsibility for your own actions. Since you haven't and seems that you won't, I won't bother with you anymore.

Jesus Christ, you think people had guns to their heads, that this was just the most important drama in the world. Seriously, be an adult and walk away, and do it before a Mod comes in here and decides to make the choice for you. Put each other on ignore if you want, but knock it off.


J.

I appreciate what you're saying and you may very well be right, but I started this poll because of Anwar's claims about Niners in other threads and I wanted to see if he was right. According to those who took part in the poll he is not. Because the findings don't match his opinions he chooses to ignore the results of the poll and go on criticising Niners even after the mods told him to knock it off.

If Anwar is going to come into this thread and disrespect it and its participants then I will provide him the rope to hang himself with. If he stops badmouthing Niners and other people who just plain didn't like Voyager then I would not have a problem with him.

This could be a good thread, maybe clear the air for VOY & DS9 fans (as a fan of DS9, I dislike VOY but hold no hatred against it in any way). I'm just tired of the bickering. Now, that being said I won't be involved in this way anymore, as I don't plan on dragging this thread another 7/8/9 pages of back and forth. Just some advice, that's all it is. Good luck and hope it works out.

J.

 

[RyuRoots]

YOU pulled you back in.

I tried to walk away, he wouldn't let me.

That's the cowards' way out, the way for someone who gave up on their argument and their beliefs.

Tried, he wouldn't let me.

So he forcibly made you post? Incredible. The U.S. government would be VERY interested in that kind of technology. At the very least you should take responsibility for your own actions. Since you haven't and seems that you won't, I won't bother with you anymore.

Jesus Christ, you think people had guns to their heads, that this was just the most important drama in the world. Seriously, be an adult and walk away, and do it before a Mod comes in here and decides to make the choice for you. Put each other on ignore if you want, but knock it off.


J.

I appreciate what you're saying and you may very well be right, but I started this poll because of Anwar's claims about Niners in other threads and I wanted to see if he was right. According to those who took part in the poll he is not. Because the findings don't match his opinions he chooses to ignore the results of the poll and go on criticising Niners even after the mods told him to knock it off.

If Anwar is going to come into this thread and disrespect it and its participants then I will provide him the rope to hang himself with. If he stops badmouthing Niners and other people who just plain didn't like Voyager then I would not have a problem with him.

This could be a good thread, maybe clear the air for VOY & DS9 fans (as a fan of DS9, I dislike VOY but hold no hatred against it in any way). I'm just tired of the bickering. Now, that being said I won't be involved in this way anymore, as I don't plan on dragging this thread another 7/8/9 pages of back and forth. Just some advice, that's all it is. Good luck and hope it works out.

J.

Well, more accurately, clear the air for Anwar and DS9 fans. Never knew anyone else that was on about this.

 

[Anwar]

I take criticism all the time,

Naturally, seeing how often you dish it out.

What general attitude?

The whole "DS9 and NuBSG are the best sci-fi shows ever with hardly any flaws to them and that's how it is" and the "Voyager didn't waste it's money on constantly changing everything which incidentally would have driven away viewers and they didn't kill off their entire cast as the show went on nor did they waste money on bringing back background characters who added nothing to the story which means it's one of the worst shows to ever exist" attitude.

I don't see how that would possibly blind me from bigotry.

Desperate perhaps, but I still think it is a valid point. If the murder of 3,000 people isn't an acceptable basis for judging an entire group of people then why is two or three people criticising a TV show?

Like I said, real life and death stuff out there. Not applicable to this argument. But it might have something to do with the 1000+ years of other experiences between said groups of people compared to our Non-1000+ years.

Have you ever considered that perhaps you were the person who was in a fringe group and not all the rest of us?

With all the websites and online I was in contact with along with the real-life ones, no. Unless said "fringe" is far more than a fringe. Neelix was not considered the spawn of Satan when VOY was on.

No it's not. If you came into this forum and criticised DS9 the television show then nobody would have a problem with you,

And you're the one saying I don't know what I'm talking about?

Compared to your word this poll has far more legitimacy.

An internet poll in a forum inhabited by the folks who naturally don't want to express the bias I'm pointing out is supposed to be definitive...

If he stops badmouthing Niners and other people who just plain didn't like Voyager then I would not have a problem with him.

In other words, I'd be okay if I was just another DS9-worshiping VOY/TNG/ENT Hater and I didn't point out the unfairness of the situation. Real great life there .

 

[TheGodBen]

This could be a good thread, maybe clear the air for VOY & DS9 fans (as a fan of DS9, I dislike VOY but hold no hatred against it in any way). I'm just tired of the bickering.

I'm tired of it too, but it is either this or do some work for college, and I'm an expert procrastinator.

Naturally, seeing how often you dish it out.

Sure do. But I tend to keep my criticisms aimed at the television shows or what the poster says, I don't criticise based upon my preconceptions of what a person should be like.

The whole "DS9 and NuBSG are the best sci-fi shows ever with hardly any flaws to them and that's how it is" and the "Voyager didn't waste it's money on constantly changing everything which incidentally would have driven away viewers and they didn't kill off their entire cast as the show went on nor did they waste money on bringing back background characters who added nothing to the story which means it's one of the worst shows to ever exist" attitude.

Jebus Christi Anwar, can you please try to keep your criticisms based on things I say?

You know, I've never said that you adore nearly everything everything about Voyager because I know you don't, and I've
never said that you loath everything about DS9 because I know you don't. I mean, it's not true, so why would I say it?

Like I said, real life and death stuff out there. Not applicable to this argument. But it might have something to do with the 1000+ years of other experiences between said groups of people compared to our Non-1000+ years.

Or it could have something to do with the fact that it is wrong when a person blames a group for the actions of a minority, and most of us know that. I could claim that all Voyager fans are Niner-bashers based upon my experiences with you, but I know that's not true for all Voyager fans or even a majority, so I have no sensible reason to do so. Do you agree that this is the civilised and acceptable way of treating other groups of people?

With all the websites and online I was in contact with along with the real-life ones, no. Unless said "fringe" is far more than a fringe. Neelix was not considered the spawn of Satan when VOY was on.

He was never considered the spawn of satan, he's just considered annoying. And the fact still remains that more people remember Neelix bashing way back in the 90s than don't.

An internet poll in a forum inhabited by the folks who naturally don't want to express the bias I'm pointing out is supposed to be definitive...

If we were such vitriolic and intolerable people as you like to make us out to be, we wouldn't give a toss what you think, we'd just insult you for liking Voyager. That's not what's happening.

In other words, I'd be okay if I was just another DS9-worshiping VOY/TNG/ENT Hater and I didn't point out the unfairness of the situation. Real great life there .

Once again, please reply to what I actually say rather than some made up BS. I said that I would have no problem with you criticising DS9 the television show, I don't see how that mutated in your mind into such a foul distortion of my words.


I'm not going to make this easy for you Anwar, I'm going to keep responding to you in this thread until a mod tells me otherwise. You're not forcing me to do this, that's a choice I have made of my own free will. I am not forcing you to respond, you are perfectly free to stop this at any point of your choosing. If you truly want to stop then stop, but don't claim that I forced you to keep on responding against your will.

 

[Anwar]

Sure do.

Glad we agree on that.

Jebus Christi Anwar, can you please try to keep your criticisms based on things I say?

I have.

I could claim that all Voyager fans are Niner-bashers based upon my experiences with you, but I know that's not true for all Voyager fans or even a majority, so I have no sensible reason to do so.

Or it could be because you know it's not a good idea to further criticize a group that's already taken a lot of undeserved abuse and criticism for over a decade.

Do you agree that this is the civilised and acceptable way of treating other groups of people?

Yes, being a Muslim myself I can see the logic in that. Too bad I can say from personal experience it's not our reality.

And the fact still remains that more people remember Neelix bashing way back in the 90s than don't.

The volcanic hatred that erupted after the show ended resulted in revisionist history that made it seem like he was always totally despised. A fandom meta-retcon if you will.

Once again, please reply to what I actually say rather than some made up BS. I said that I would have no problem with you criticising DS9 the television show

And I'm saying you would.

don't claim that I forced you to keep on responding against your will.

For decency's sake, I DO have to even if it's against my will. Want me to stop, "grow up" and walk away from this then you're going to have to grow up and deal with this being a draw and neither of us changing our opinions.

If you agree to that, then it's done and over.

 

[Thestral]

Mmm... popcorn...

Anwar's reminding me of a certain... Don...

Also, I don't know why you guys aren't aware of the vast Internet Voyager-hating conspiracy that I and other Niners are a part of. We report to the same people who are organizing the FEMA Camps and serve on the Universal Health Care Death Panels. Did you just miss the memo?

 

[Anwar]

Hey Kestral, you stopped commenting on my Voyager rewrite. What gives man? At least tell me you don't like where I took the show!

 

[Thestral]

Hmm? Oh, sorry, I actually haven't been back to the thread in quite some time. I did enjoy where you were taking it though, I'll make a point of checking it out again soon.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Every fandom has its bizarre fringe groups.

And thus Anwar explains himself, even if he's not a 'group'.

Heh, I knew Niners were going to try and twist that around.

Stop this sort of thing - both of you.

Anwar, BOTH of your statements quoted above - one of them a personal slam at GodBen and the other a personal slam at Niners as a fan group, are unacceptable. You are on course for getting a warning, as discussed. In fact, I should give you one for that last remark right now, given all the time we devoted to your drama. Please be on notice that ANY further generalized remarks slamming DS9 fans WILL net you a warning. You are fresh OUT of chances on this issue. Zero tolerance from now on. End of discussion.

RyuRoots - your statement was a dig at Anwar. Please don't do it again.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

If he stops badmouthing Niners and other people who just plain didn't like Voyager then I would not have a problem with him.

In other words, I'd be okay if I was just another DS9-worshiping VOY/TNG/ENT Hater and I didn't point out the unfairness of the situation. Real great life there .

Here is ANOTHER one of these sorts of remarks, Anwar.

Since I'm catching it on the same sweep, I count is part of the other friendly I just gave you. But if you make another remark like this - taking shots at this fan group (as opposed to the show itself), you WILL be warned...and further, reported to Bonz, who has indicated to me that if you do not stop this poor-pitiful-me-victim-of-Niners routine, you will be looking at a ban from this board.

Now, that is the direction you are headed. Whether you continue to be allowed to participate on TrekBBS is entirely up to you. But I can tell you - not just I, but the entire staff of this board - up to and including Bonz, has had about enough of this.

 

[RyuRoots]

I apologize. I will do my best to practice restraint in the future.

 

[Kegg]

With all the websites and online I was in contact with along with the real-life ones, no. Unless said "fringe" is far more than a fringe. Neelix was not considered the spawn of Satan when VOY was on.

But that's exactly the position I was in which you characterise as fringe. Either I'm the fringe or you are, and my fringe oddly enough included the TrekBBS, and apparently includes others in this thread than me (if we count GodBen's fan group, and why not? They's Trekkies like everyone else.)

Again what I find perplexing is not your assertion people liked Neelix, but that substanial amounts did not hate him until post-Endgame. If that were the case, boy, the TrekBBS had one extremely vocal minority who were rarely if ever countermanded, and this apparently resulted in them becoming a majority after the series was over.

I recognise you might not have come across Neelix bashing for whatever reason (it's a big internet), but that's no reason to adamantly stand by a solipsistic viewpoint since because you didn't witness it it never existed.

 

[Anwar]

Apparently the fringe you think I was a part of was more than a fringe as well, though I do agree that TrekBBS has some really vocal minorities. I never ran into TOS fans who hated the rest of Trek until I came here.

Look, I think we'll just have to call it a draw on the Neelix issue. I say that he wasn't widespread hated until towards the end of the show, and you say he was. Let's just leave it at that.

 

[TheGodBen]

Glad we agree on that.

Apparently we do. There's nothing wrong with criticism, if nobody was critical of things in Star Trek we'd have very little reason to have Trek message boards. Some of the best conversations I've had on this board are with people who disagree with me.

Jebus Christi Anwar, can you please try to keep your criticisms based on things I say?

I have.

I consider DS9 and nuBSG to be nearly flawless? I advocated killing off the entire Voyager cast? I've said that Voyager was one of the worst shows of all time?

I'm pretty sure that all those things you've said are not true, and I'm in a good position to know that because I've lived in my head for 23 years and I've got a pretty good handle on what things are like in here.

Or it could be because you know it's not a good idea to further criticize a group that's already taken a lot of undeserved abuse and criticism for over a decade.

Or it could be because I don't treat you as a Voyager fan, I treat you as an individual just like I do with everyone else on this board.

Yes, being a Muslim myself I can see the logic in that. Too bad I can say from personal experience it's not our reality.

The incivility of a minority does not give you carte blanche to act the same way towards others. If you want to prove that you're better than someone like that then you provide them with the respect that they don't show you.

The volcanic hatred that erupted after the show ended resulted in revisionist history that made it seem like he was always totally despised. A fandom meta-retcon if you will.

Why? Why would a group of people go to the trouble of inventing a hatred for a character on a television show? Hell, why would they invent a hatred for a TV show? Can you provide a logical reason as to why anybody would do that?

And I'm saying you would.

And I'm saying that I don't, which is why you can search this board and find that people criticise DS9 in various threads and I don't jump down their throats insulting them. Go ahead, find me the posts where I attack people for not liking DS9. I've been on this board for almost a year, surely you should be able to find a dozen or so if your claims about me are true.

For decency's sake, I DO have to even if it's against my will. Want me to stop, "grow up" and walk away from this then you're going to have to grow up and deal with this being a draw and neither of us changing our opinions.

If you agree to that, then it's done and over.

A draw? This isn't a competition Anwar, I'm not doing this to win points or to win a worthless argument on the internet, I'm doing this purely to get you to stop badmouthing people who don't share the same likes and dislikes that you do. You came into this thread and disrespected everyone who voted in this poll by claiming they are lying or ignoring that they exist at all. I'm not walking away from my own thread, I am going to defend it from your baseless attacks until the gods or PKTrekGirl stops me.

I'm not interested in anything short of getting you to stop.

Now I'm going to give you a piece of advice here Anwar: Apparently my comments irritate you enough to respond to me even though you want to stop, and when you do respond you eventually fall back on the "evil Niner/hater" shtick which has gotten you in trouble with the mods. Apparently you're in danger of being banned for this, so if you want to keep on posting on this board you might want to consider setting me to ignore. I promise I wont take offence.

 

[Kegg]

Apparently the fringe you think I was a part of was more than a fringe as well, though I do agree that TrekBBS has some really vocal minorities. I never ran into TOS fans who hated the rest of Trek until I came here.

Well I've met people who only really liked the first series (and vice versa, folks who are just fans of the newer shows - or even just DS9), but yeah, I haven't met anyone who loathed TNG. Probably because they weren't as darnedly passionate as a lot of netizens are, I'd suppose.

 

[flemm]

Jesus Christ, you think people had guns to their heads, that this was just the most important drama in the world. Seriously, be an adult and walk away, and do it before a Mod comes in here and decides to make the choice for you. Put each other on ignore if you want, but knock it off.


J.

LoL! Didn't you set the standard for internet ego wars at something like 100 pages somewhere earlier in the thread?

Physician, heal thyself

 

[Amaris]

Jesus Christ, you think people had guns to their heads, that this was just the most important drama in the world. Seriously, be an adult and walk away, and do it before a Mod comes in here and decides to make the choice for you. Put each other on ignore if you want, but knock it off.


J.

LoL! Didn't you set the standard for internet ego wars at something like 100 pages somewhere earlier in the thread?

Physician, heal thyself

1) The Neutral Zone
2) It involved more than myself (who stepped out after a while)
3) Not relevant to this particular instance.
4) Don't draw attention to yourself.

J.

 

[flemm]

1) The Neutral Zone
2) It involved more than myself (who stepped out after a while)
3) Not relevant to this particular instance.
4) Don't draw attention to yourself.

J.

I'm sure that other thread was entirely different in every respect and that you conducted yourself in a mature manner from start to finish. Truly you are an example to us all, a shining light of the forums

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Why are Niners supposed to be the big Voyager haters? It's only an impression, but it seems to me that Enterprise fans actually criticise Voyager more, if only in a "everyone slags off Enterprise, but I think it was better than Voyager" way. Not that there's anything wrong with a bit of slagging off.