How do/did you feel about the return of the Enterprise-D?

[Daedalus]

I'd thought about this in 2020. I'll cut-and-paste what I said back then:

April 16th, 2020

If Picard had Irumodic Syndrome for multiple seasons, that would be multiple seasons where we'd start to question whether or not he had all of his mental faculties intact. Clearly PIC is in a galaxy that's been jaded by the events of DS9 and what happened afterwards, so do you really want the person fighting for what's right in this changed "world" to be someone who's lost his mind and who no one should take seriously? I don't think you do. I don't think most people do.​

So either they have to find a miracle cure for the Irumodic Syndrome, or he has to die if there's truly no cure. In which case, they made a synthetic body for him and now they can take Picard into a place next season that isn't him moping about 20 years ago.

Whether or not it would've been better to just have a cure or to resurrect him is a debatable question with no right or wrong answer. It depends on what they do with it next season. But if you can accept Spock being resurrected through something as wonky as Genesis, then you can accept Picard being resurrected by having his essence transferred into another body. Something that's more grounded in science-fiction than the fantasy that was TSFS.
​

More succinctly, I think it was a way to cure Picard of his Irumodic Syndrome without actually having to come up with a cure for it, so that Irumodic Syndrome could be and remain uncurable.

EDITED TO ADD: And it was a way to have Picard be able to have a heart-to-heart with Data. Something missing from NEM and -- even though it wasn't the same -- something closer to being along the lines of Kirk and Spock at the end of TWOK, where there was a heart-to-heart there as well. Having Picard and Data both at the crossroads of death put them on equal footing and in a "neutral" setting to be able to interact with each other.

Data's sacrifice in NEM and his farewell to Picard in PIC S1 combined together are the equivalent of Spock's sacrifice and farewell to Kirk in TWOK.

Data's revival in PIC S3 from what was downloaded into B4, and the integration of his mind into his new body, is the equivalent of Spock's arc in TSFS.

When Data is fighting with Lore in his own mind and finding his way back to himself, I think it's the dramatization of Data fighting his way back to who he was. It's kind of like Spock finding his way back to himself in TVH. This last analogy is the broadest of broad strokes.

You make some good points, really.
Looking at NEM and PIC S1 as a long goodbye, does allow Data's death to carry more weight, especialy if you watch it back to back.

I could misremembering AGT, but I was under the impression that Irumodic Syndrome was always just a possibility for Picard, rather than a definite fact. I recall a scene in sickbay to that effect, where Beverly says something along those lines. So, if I am correct, it felt a bit unnecessary to include it.

Also, how it was presented in PIC S1 seemed to be different to what I remember in AGT, as he seemed more cantankerous and woolly-minded opposed to the occasional fainting episode. I do really need to rewatch it all again, and ofc conditions can manifest itself in many different ways, but it just seemed like things didn't line up quite right.

It's all likely to be a simple case of subverting expectations and adding extra stakes.

 

[The Wormhole]

If they had 4X the budget they could have had a new ship or something. But with the time and budget constraints they had, it works.

There was a solution with the time and budget constraints they had. They simply leave the Enterprise F out of the Frontier Day celebrations and have that be the new ship the Titan crew transfer to at the end. It'd simply mean seeing them on the bridge we saw Shelby on in the actual episode anyway. Literally the same amount of time and resources would have been spent that were spent in the episode itself anyway. If they wanted to have an Enterprise at the ceremony, have it be the Enterprise E, which would have been of more personal significance to the audience and the TNG characters and would have been a sense of closure for TNG. It could even have been poetic for bring the D back, have it bee the phoenix rising from the ashes to avenge its successor. Since we saw Sovereign class ships at the celebrations anyway, it also would have just been a case of using money the actual episode spent anyway.

And the novelverse did something very similar anyway.

Data was brought back in the show in a manner nearly identical to how he was brought back in the novels, even complete with the virtual environment where he and Lore interacted, which is exactly the same as it was described in the novels. The only real difference is in the novels he was in a youthful body, but then the novels didn't have to deal with the fact Brent Spiner is in his 70s.

And this all circles back to another common complaint about the third season. There was no originality there at all. Everything done in the season was copied from somewhere else.

 

[evilchumlee]

PS3 has ~less~ homework than PS1 or PS2. It has far less "memberberries" than STLD.

I'd like to point out a massive THIS.

It seems like alot of the same people who are so zealously against the "fanwank nostalgia" of PIC S3... seem to love Lower Decks, which is basically "90's Trek Nostalgia: The Cartoon". It's a tad perplexing.

I could misremembering AGT, but I was under the impression that Irumodic Syndrome was always just a possibility for Picard, rather than a definite fact. I recall a scene in sickbay to that effect, where Beverly says something along those lines. So, if I am correct, it felt a bit unnecessary to include it.

'

Kind of, sort of.

In the AGT Future, Picard definitely has Irumodic syndrome.

In the "present" TNG, Crusher tells Picard it's a possibility he could develop it.

Picard changed the future, so... potentially he could have changed the fact that he developed the syndrome? But he definitely did develop it one timeline, so... seems likely he would again?

 

[The Wormhole]

Picard changed the future, so... potentially he could have changed the fact that he developed the syndrome? But he definitely did develop it one timeline, so... seems likely he would again?

IIRC, Irumodic Syndrome is supposed to be genetic like ALS. He'd get it regardless of what changes he made to the timeline.

 

[evilchumlee]

IIRC, Irumodic Syndrome is supposed to be genetic like ALS. He'd get it regardless of what changes he made to the timeline.

I would by and large agree... just also adding in a possible butterfly effect.

There is also a general unknown that goes a bit meta but like, can we even be sure that Q was ACTUALLY making Picard time travel, or was Q simply projecting something to Picard? We take it at face value that he's time travelling, but Q isn't exactly trustworthy. That whole AGT future may simply have been an entirely farcical construct by Q.

 

[fireproof78]

Is having canonically accurate legacy ships at the fleet museum really worth all the OMG nostalgia pearl clutching?

That's not the problem.

When Data is fighting with Lore in his own mind and finding his way back to himself, I think it's the dramatization of Data fighting his way back to who he was. It's kind of like Spock finding his way back to himself in TVH. This last analogy is the broadest of broad strokes.

Of the scenes with Data this one definitely worked the best.

 

[DonIago]

The difference between nostalgia in LD and nostalgia for PIC, for me, is that LD embraced it from the get-go and never claimed to be anything other than a love letter to the series that preceded (and in some cases are contemporaneous with) it. Also, I don't take it that seriously, as it's essentially TNG meets Futurama for me.

Meanwhile, PIC did something new (whether or not the show did it well notwithstanding) in S1 by showing us that time had passed for Picard and, while having fond memories of Ye Olde Days, he'd moved on from the E-D and had met new people and embraced the rest of his life, both the good and bad events that followed. I'm not saying he was necessarily happy with everything that had transpired (nobody would be), but it seemed very realistic to me.

But between S2 and S3 the show regresses to essentially a TNG revival. Many of the new people and new events that transpired since TNG get swept under the rug and the show was refactored from 'What happens to Our Hero after the Golden Age?' to 'Hold on to the Golden Age for as long as you can, because it's never gonna get any better!'...which, honestly, I think is kind of an awful message to send to people.

Maybe it resonates more for me because I'm almost 50 years old at this point. I think back fondly on many of my past memories, but I'm not the person I was when those memories were forged, and I like the person I've become and I don't want to just regress back to being the me I was two decades earlier.

What I wanted to see was Picard finding new ways to be happy and at peace with himself. I didn't mind seeing the TNG cast show up per se (indeed, Ro's return was something I'd always wanted to see play out), but I minded that the show became all about them.

 

[James Cole]

There was a solution with the time and budget constraints they had. They simply leave the Enterprise F out of the Frontier Day celebrations and have that be the new ship the Titan crew transfer to at the end. It'd simply mean seeing them on the bridge we saw Shelby on in the actual episode anyway. Literally the same amount of time and resources would have been spent that were spent in the episode itself anyway. If they wanted to have an Enterprise at the ceremony, have it be the Enterprise E, which would have been of more personal significance to the audience and the TNG characters and would have been a sense of closure for TNG. It could even have been poetic for bring the D back, have it bee the phoenix rising from the ashes to avenge its successor. Since we saw Sovereign class ships at the celebrations anyway, it also would have just been a case of using money the actual episode spent anyway.

They probably feared not being able to recreate the E-E bridge.

Data was brought back in the show in a manner nearly identical to how he was brought back in the novels, even complete with the virtual environment where he and Lore interacted, which is exactly the same as it was described in the novels. The only real difference is in the novels he was in a youthful body, but then the novels didn't have to deal with the fact Brent Spiner is in his 70s.

And this all circles back to another common complaint about the third season. There was no originality there at all. Everything done in the season was copied from somewhere else.

Both the novels and PS3 followed the natural trajectory of what came before. Not everything can be a subversion of expectations, and PS1 more than overindexed the playing of that card anyway.

It seems like alot of the same people who are so zealously against the "fanwank nostalgia" of PIC S3... seem to love Lower Decks, which is basically "90's Trek Nostalgia: The Cartoon". It's a tad perplexing.

There definitely is some cognitive dissonance involved...

 

[fireproof78]

The difference between nostalgia in LD and nostalgia for PIC, for me, is that LD embraced it from the get-go and never claimed to be anything other than a love letter to the series that preceded (and in some cases are contemporaneous with) it. Also, I don't take it that seriously, as it's essentially TNG meets Futurama for me.

The difference for me is that it is two different categories. Lower Decks is not serious, is not meant to be taken seriously, and is, in essence, Callbacks the Series. It never claims otherwise. It is the Grant's Tomb of Star Trek-what you see is what you get.

Meanwhile, PIC did something new (whether or not the show did it well notwithstanding) in S1 by showing us that time had passed for Picard and, while having fond memories of Ye Olde Days, he'd moved on from the E-D and had met new people and embraced the rest of his life, both the good and bad events that followed. I'm not saying he was necessarily happy with everything that had transpired (nobody would be), but it seemed very realistic to me.

Agreed. And this is were Season struggles a bit. And before people come at me for hating nostalgia, let me be clear-Season 3 started out really strongly. Other than Shaw (who shouldn't be a captain), I really enjoyed the series, and was along for the ride.

The problem I have is simply the execution in the story. It's not "all fanwank is bad;" It's that the way it was used basically told me that when Picard had moved on in his life, the only way to reclaim his mojo was to go back in time. That the time on the Enterprise-D was the most important time and was how he could make a difference again.

Maybe it resonates more for me because I'm almost 50 years old at this point. I think back fondly on many of my past memories, but I'm not the person I was when those memories were forged, and I like the person I've become and I don't want to just regress back to being the me I was two decades earlier.

This. This is how I feel. The nostalgia aspect wasn't the bad part; it was the being stuck in the past to the point that it felt the crew was only really complete when it was on that ship, in that period of time of their lives.

Things I didn't mind in Season 3:

• Ro showing up
• Tuvok showing up
• Shelby showing up
• References and follow up to Changelings.
• The museum.

Things I did mind:

• Feeling the story grind to a halt due to nostalgia over the past.
• The Enterprise D being a hot rod.
• The Borg.

Is that anti-nostalgia? Anti-fanwank in all cases? Anti-continuity or anti-lore?

You decide.

 

[evilchumlee]

Other than Shaw (who shouldn't be a captain)

I feel like that's a bit of a hot take. He was SUPPOSED to rub you the wrong way.

I found Shaw to be an interesting take, being completely unimpressed with Picard and Riker. If anything, I was mildly miffed that he stopped being kind of an ass towards the end.

The problem I have is simply the execution in the story. It's not "all fanwank is bad;" It's that the way it was used basically told me that when Picard had moved on in his life, the only way to reclaim his mojo was to go back in time. That the time on the Enterprise-D was the most important time and was how he could make a difference again.

I can see where your coming from, but at the same point it seemed like it was the point of the show from S1. Picard had NOT really moved on with his life. Picard was just kind of... waiting to die on his vineyard. His life was being on a starship. He never really accepted his fate. He was just miserable.

This is the same Picard that willfully left the Nexus, could go literally anywhere, anytime and he chose... Viridian III because all that Picard cares about is the mission. That man left... without a mission is torture.

Is that anti-nostalgia? Anti-fanwank in all cases? Anti-continuity or anti-lore?

You decide.

I wouldn't call it any of those things. It's actually ok to just... like or not like things. And it's ok to disagree with others about what you may like or not like.

I'd probably say my only "issue" with the "fanwank" was the Enterprise's Death Star run... and even then, sure whatever. I think that probably could have gone differently to the same effect.

 

[Lord Garth]

I've weighed in on how I felt about the Enterprise-D appearing and gone into the weeds of how I see other things in general. So, anything more would either be going around in circles or going further into the weeds.

So, I'll just respond to this.

I could misremembering AGT, but I was under the impression that Irumodic Syndrome was always just a possibility for Picard, rather than a definite fact. I recall a scene in sickbay to that effect, where Beverly says something along those lines. So, if I am correct, it felt a bit unnecessary to include it.

In the Present Time of "All Good Things", it was a possibility but not established that it would happen for sure like was seen in the Future Scenes.

Also, how it was presented in PIC S1 seemed to be different to what I remember in AGT, as he seemed more cantankerous and woolly-minded opposed to the occasional fainting episode. I do really need to rewatch it all again, and ofc conditions can manifest itself in many different ways, but it just seemed like things didn't line up quite right.

PIC Season 1 followed up on the idea that Picard had some sort of affliction and it didn't specify Irumodic Syndrome, but that's a blank I filled in myself. It was open to interpretation, and that's how I interpreted it. He was in the early stages and Admiral "Fucking" Clancy wasn't going to listen to anything he had to say, because she saw him as a shell of who he used to be.

In PIC Season 3, they mention Irumodic Syndrome specifically by name and that Picard didn't actually have it, but the Borg had made it look as if he did. So, he was afflicted in BOBW and it grew from there over time.

 

[fireproof78]

I feel like that's a bit of a hot take. He was SUPPOSED to rub you the wrong way.

Of course. I have no issue with him rubbing me the wrong way. Lots of characters do: Stiles, Maddox, Eddington. None of them I felt would be a captain, unless they adjusted. Shaw is a captain.

I can see where your coming from, but at the same point it seemed like it was the point of the show from S1. Picard had NOT really moved on with his life. Picard was just kind of... waiting to die on his vineyard. His life was being on a starship. He never really accepted his fate. He was just miserable.

And, to me, the La Sirena and the end of Season 1 offered that. But that's not what Season 3 said. Season 3 said "This, here on the Enterprise-D is the only place that made a difference." That Picard's mission was to always be a captain. As DonIago said that comes across as a terrible thing to say to an aging person. "You no longer matter, but you can briefly revisit your glory days."

I know many fans really enjoyed seeing the crew on the Enterprise D again, and I can understand it. But I sure find at odds with the end of Season 1 and Picard having a new found family only to be told, "No, those are not good enough." It's like the Prophets asking Sisko "Why do you exist here?"

It's a bitter pill to swallow, and becomes more so when you think Picard has found that new mission on a starship only to basically have all of that replaced again.

Again, I have no doubt that the intention was for it to be a feel good moment for the Next Generation crew. But, how they got there left a lot to be desired.

Mileage will vary.

 

[Daedalus]

I've weighed in on how I felt about the Enterprise-D appearing and gone into the weeds of how I see other things in general. So, anything more would either be going around in circles or going further into the weeds.

So, I'll just respond to this.

In the Present Time of "All Good Things", it was a possibility but not established that it would happen for sure like was seen in the Future Scenes.


PIC Season 1 followed up on the idea that Picard had some sort of affliction and it didn't specify Irumodic Syndrome, but that's a blank I filled in myself. It was open to interpretation, and that's how I interpreted it. He was in the early stages and Admiral "Fucking" Clancy wasn't going to listen to anything he had to say, because she saw him as a shell of who he used to be.

In PIC Season 3, they mention Irumodic Syndrome specifically by name and that Picard didn't actually have it, but the Borg had made it look as if he did. So, he was afflicted in BOBW and it grew from there over time.

That's filled out a few spaces in my recollection, thanks for that.

 

[evilchumlee]

And, to me, the La Sirena and the end of Season 1 offered that. But that's not what Season 3 said. Season 3 said "This, here on the Enterprise-D is the only place that made a difference." That Picard's mission was to always be a captain. As DonIago said that comes across as a terrible thing to say to an aging person. "You no longer matter, but you can briefly revisit your glory days."

It's a bitter pill to swallow, and becomes more so when you think Picard has found that new mission on a starship only to basically have all of that replaced again.

Different perspectives are totally ok. Appreciated even.

I really didn't read it the same way at all. I never got the impression of the show trying to say "These old people don't matter, and they only did at this one point in time, so they get to relive it and feel useful again."

I really saw it much more as, to paraphrase Riker, "we're the crew of the Enterprise." They aren't useless old people trying to recapture a moment in time when they mattered. They ARE, present, past and future tense... the crew of the Enterprise. They matter. They used to matter. They will always matter. THAT was the realization, that even though they are older, and maybe not quite as involved as they once were... they will always be the crew of the Enterprise.

Having their old ship was just... fun. It could have been anything. If it just so happened that Geordie was super into Klingon ships, maybe it would have been Qo'nos One that was operational, and that's what they took into battle. If it wasn't Geordie on the station and like, Harry Kim, maybe Voyager would have been operational and they went in on Voyager. I honestly though in the lead up that they were going to have a small fleet... Picard on the E-D, Seven on Voyager, Worf on Defiant, Jack on the New Jersey because he seemed into it. It just worked out to be the E-D that was the operational ship.

 

[Praetor]

I really saw it much more as, to paraphrase Riker, "we're the crew of the Enterprise." They aren't useless old people trying to recapture a moment in time when they mattered. They ARE, present, past and future tense... the crew of the Enterprise. They matter. They used to matter. They will always matter. THAT was the realization, that even though they are older, and maybe not quite as involved as they once were... they will always be the crew of the Enterprise.

This. It's the realization that who you were, who you are, and who you will be are intrinsically connected.

I honestly though in the lead up that they were going to have a small fleet... Picard on the E-D, Seven on Voyager, Worf on Defiant, Jack on the New Jersey because he seemed into it. It just worked out to be the E-D that was the operational ship.

I'm glad to hear I wasn't the only one who saw this happening, though for some reason I expected Jack on the A.

 

[evilchumlee]

I'm glad to hear I wasn't the only one who saw this happening, though for some reason I expected Jack on the A.

Could have went either way.

There was a part of me too when they took the cloaking device from the Bounty that they were actually taking the ship.

 

[Praetor]

Me too.

 

[Daedalus]

I secretly wanted that to happen, something that was reminiscent of Doctor Who's "No sir, all Thirteen" moment from Day of the Doctor.

I even pictured a small scene being shot at Ticonderoga for the New Jersey.

In hindsight, I'm glad they didn't. Seeing those ships preserved together was enough. Its a nice thought, though.

 

[fireproof78]

I really didn't read it the same way at all. I never got the impression of the show trying to say "These old people don't matter, and they only did at this one point in time, so they get to relive it and feel useful again."

Well, unfortunately, Shaw's reaction didn't help much. He downplayed pretty much every achievement at the drop of a hat.

I really saw it much more as, to paraphrase Riker, "we're the crew of the Enterprise." They aren't useless old people trying to recapture a moment in time when they mattered. They ARE, present, past and future tense... the crew of the Enterprise. They matter. They used to matter. They will always matter. THAT was the realization, that even though they are older, and maybe not quite as involved as they once were... they will always be the crew of the Enterprise.

Which...just lands way oddly. We didn't matter in Season 1, and now we have always mattered in Season 3. It's a tangled web of very frustrating emotions.

The D is just the illustrative aspect of my frustration that it feels very "Glory Days" rather than encouraging. That and the story pacing, as I've noted elsewhere.

Mileage will vary.

 

[evilchumlee]

Which...just lands way oddly. We didn't matter in Season 1, and now we have always mattered in Season 3. It's a tangled web of very frustrating emotions.

I mean... that was kind of the point? That was the arc of the series?

Picard went from feeling like he no longer mattered, to realizing... he absolutely did matter and would always matter.

I feel the need to advertise over the internet in interactions that like, this is just a discussion, not an attack or anything like that. People can often take things the wrong way over the internet.